Aircraft separation/confliction

[ZuluFoxtrot]

Hi all,

I am a recent EASA PPL holder with around 5 hours on my log book P1 since passing 2 months ago. I am more than confident in most aspects of flying with exception of 1 currently.. running into another aircraft or vice versa. I spend my time in the air looking out for traffic (standard) and listening to radio for other traffic. It has become a real fear that something could happen up there. Any advice from more experienced pilots and is this something that has worried others?

ZuluFox

[ShyTorque]

As someone with over three and a half decades of aviation in professional roles and a bit more before that, the best advice I can give is:

Keep worried, keep looking, keep safe. :ok:

[jkveenstra]

I heard a rumour that Skydemon is introducing visualisation of traffic (and giving advisories).You'll need some sort of extra device, which will pick up transponder data. Maybe this will give you an extra level of safety.

Hopefully the rumours are true.

I heard of several other collision avoidance systems (probably pricey).

[ZuluFoxtrot]

Thanks guys :)

[Dash8driver1312]

Of course, that only helps when everyone is flying with TCAS etc.

[chevvron]

It will only operate between transponder equipped aircraft too, so a so called 'traffic advisory' might result in you turning into conflict with non transponder equipped aircraft (as does TCAS especially when they get a climb or descend RA).
Eyeballs that's the answer!

[powerless]

I appreciate your negative view expressed about gliders in another thread but maybe a couple of glider flights at your local club where you will get used to having a number [of] aircraft in close proximity but not following a pattern and no radio calls will help you relax a little more about your ability to cope. Agree with Shy Torque’s “Keep worried, keep looking, keep safe”.

[foxmoth]

I started flying 40 years ago, yes, much of my flying has been in protected airspace, but I also am still current flying light aircraft and have kept it that way right through and have many hours flying GA, many of those years before the days of Collision avoidance systems, in all that time I have rarely (unintentionally) come close to another aircraft and rarely even had to change direction to avoid, that is not to say don't keep a good lookout, but it IS a big sky and you should not get excessively worried about this. DO take sensible measures, keep a good look out, avoid high congestion areas where possible and fly heights that others regularly fly (e.g. 2,000/2,500/3,000), but don't obsess over it!:ok:

[Pace]

ZuluFoxtrot

Just keep your eyes open! I presume you drive a car!

Do you go around worrying about hitting another car?

You have way more cars to hit driving your car than aircraft to hit flying an aircraft!

The difference is that if you do hit another aircraft chances are that you are dead while in a car you will probably survive in one form or another :{ Even if a bit Ga Ga!!

So think???? you have a fraction of the chances of hitting an aircraft as you do hitting a car while driving a car.

If you hit an aircraft be positive on your high velocity trip into the fields with the thought that you will no longer have to worry about paying the mortgage or the other million things we worry about in our daily lives so not all bad :ok:

Keep a good lookout and do not worry :E you could always buy a Cirrus if your that worried ???

Pace

[DavidHoul52]

Going through a stage a being absolutely terrified about collisions seems to be inevitable at some time. And I agree, keeping a healthy fear will keep you on your toes.

Around airfields is the place to really watch out. An all too common experience is spotting another aircraft and realizing that the pilot is not at all aware of your presence.

You develop an awareness of movement in your periphery vision. The one you are least likely to see is the one coming straight towards you, but again that's the one which is most likely to miss you - what are the changes of being in the exact opposite heading at precisely the same height? I have never heard of this happening in any accident.

A less obvious danger is aircraft climbing up to you from underneath. Not easy to see at all.

Does anyone really do that eye-scanning segment thing the CAA recommends?

[India Four Two]

The one you are least likely to see is the one coming straight towards you, but again that's the one which is most likely to miss you - what are the changes of being in the exact opposite heading at precisely the same height? I have never heard of this happening in any accident.


David,

It's not just opposite heading - it's a constant relative bearing that leads to a collision and because the target is not moving left or right, it is more difficult to detect.

Having said that, the "big sky" theory helps a lot as does flying at non-standard altitudes and avoiding choke-points like VORs and VFR routes near the edges of CAS.

[abgd]

Studies have shown that pilots don't (can't) detect most traffic visually:

Air Accidents Investigation: 5/2010 G-BYXR and G-CKHT[/url]
http://humansystems.arc.nasa.gov/flightcognition/Publications/Colvin_ISAP05.pdf
www.atsb.gov.au/media/32918/limit_see_avoid.pdf

etc...

An exception is in the circuit, or other situations where you know where the conflicting traffic is most likely to be. For example flying down the Luton/Stanstead corridor I would concentrate my search down the corridor rather than to the sides, because you're more likely to have VFR traffic flying along the corridor rather than flying into you from controlled airspace.

The real answer though, is that mid-air collisions en-route are very rare, and on the principle that we should focus our attention on those things that we can change and that are significant, there are better things to worry about. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't look out of the window.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, the most obvious high traffic area is in the circuit, and joining or leaving the circuit. Try to get a good mental image of where everyone is by listening to the radio... Watch out for the double calls about simultaneous position reports... If someone calls 'G-aaaa on Final' just as you are about to give the same call, you can be pretty sure he is either above or below you. Best to give your position and height and your avoiding intentions.

If you fly the circuit at correct circuit height +- 30ft, then other planes will be silhouetted against the horizon. If they are 100ft lower they will be much more difficult to see against the ground.

Also be aware that we don't all fly the same circuit, nose to tail, like follow my leader. This makes the downwind leg a series of parallel tracks by all the different aircraft. Some will be just 300 yards from the runway, others will be over a mile away, depending upon aircraft type and pilot choice. If you fly downwind at 1000 yards out, expect other planes to be both to the left and to the right of you.

On a really busy day I have seen 5 in the circuit with 2 more waiting at the runway hold. It turned into a long wait, as a further plane joined downwind from a cross-country flight.

[Morris542]

I think it's healthy to be concerned about collisions. Just as it's healthy to be concerned about carb icing etc - you'll be looking for the symptoms / other aircraft. My greatest concern is a high wing a/c climbing into me (low wing), or my low wing descending into a high wing. So you just have to be proactive with your lookout - really rock the wings to see if there's anything below (or above for a high wing).

When flying with passengers I always brief them on keeping a good lookout - it gives them something to do and it gives the a/c some more eyes. Most of the time in the circuit they spot traffic before I do.

[maxred]

As with all alspects of life, Be Aware. Whether watching out for rogue buses whilst walking in the street, or flying your aircraft at 5k. Situational awareness, of all aspects of the flight is what it is all about.

I flew over to Ireland yesterday, and had three see and avoid. On the morning flight to Ireland, crossing Arran, and speaking with Scottish, a light aircraft across my bow. I saw him, he did not see me. About 2 miles in front, same level. Then a Loganair Twin Otter, same level, I knew he was coming, but saw him late, passed my RHS, about 100 feet below me. He saw me, before I saw him.

Late afternoon, another Twin Otter out of Campbeltown, passing through my level, me at 4400, he going to 5, both GOW inbound. I saw him take off as I passed overhead, again talking to both Cambeltown and Scottish, everyone keeping everyone else alert and aware. Now, that, FOR ME WAS A VERY BUSY DAY, where three sets of traffic, could, if I was not aware, and talking, could have ruined my day. That was CAVOK.

I know lots of people do not want to talk on the radio, and prefer to go flying in silence, and they are free to do that. But, I would always advocate to listen in to the pertinent frequency, and at least be aware of what is happening around you, even if you do not want to communicate with them.

[2 sheds]

But, I would always advocate to listen in to the pertinent frequency, and at least be aware of what is happening around you, even if you do not want to communicate with them.
You will not be very aware of the other chap who is employing the same principle, though!

2 s

[Il Duce]

ZF, is there an ATC unit nearby which provides a LARS? Request a Traffic Service and you should be provided with surveillance derived info on relevant traffic in your vicinity - hopefully even those without transponders. It'll all add to your situational awareness and provide that extra level of information on top of your lookout.

[ShyTorque]

Also, if you fly an aircraft with a Mode C /ALT facility on its transponder, always use it (rather than just selecting plain Mode A), which helps pilots of TCAS equipped aircraft to avoid you.

[maxred]

Just in and just happened. Warning some graphic scenes.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/northvalley/articles/20130531phoenix-planes-crash-abrk.html

I believe the airspace is quite busy.

[Johnm]

Fly as high as you can, most light aircraft seem to fly below 3000ft. Get a radar traffic service so it's not just your eyes keeping a look out. Learn a systematic scan. Don't worry about it that's a waste of effort and can distract you from doing the aforementioned practical things

[mad_jock]

Traffic and basic the in the Uk is no use to man nor beast for any form of seperation.

Your on your own.

[Johnm]

Mad jock I agree basic service is pointless but traffic has some merit. You have extra data can make decisions using it.

[mad_jock]

traffic does give you some info but its not guaranteed. They will try and let you know but if they don't that's just plane tough you still on your tod.

[Talkdownman]

Let's take a look at the caveats in CAP774 - 'UK Flight Information Services'

Chapter 1 - Service Principles

Within Class F and G airspace, regardless of the service being provided, pilots are ultimately responsible for collision avoidance

Chapter 2 - Basic Service

The avoidance of other traffic is solely the pilot’s responsibility.

Chapter 3 - Traffic Service

the avoidance of other traffic is ultimately the pilot’s responsibility.


Often the very participation in these optional services creates additional, and often un-necessary, workload (RTF, plogs, referring to gizmos, calculations etc) which detracts from the lookout required.

They have got you by the short and curlys whatever happens.
The one which you hit will be the one you didn't see regardless of whether you have been warned or not.
Not everybody will be squawking or have FLARM etc, so it's down to Mark One Eyeball.

[mad_jock]

Yep talkdown treat any service as a bonus but presume your on your tod.

[Talkdownman]

When sitting in the right-seat I am frequently dismayed, nay, even frustrated, to hear the driver call x (totally irrelevant) unit for y (inappropriate) service, then witness the subsequent degradation of lookout, cockpit workload management and listening out. I see over-reliance, and aircraft are often detected far too late because the limitations of ATSOCA are not understood. The distraction of the receipt of ATSOCA itself is often contributory to poor lookout.

[foxmoth]

Traffic and basic the in the Uk is no use to man nor beast for any form of seperation.

Your on your own.

Whilst I agree that you are on your own, if you listen out properly at least this gives you a heads up on where and what height other traffic using the service is and should give you indications of if you need to look for them and where to look, so, whilst no use for any positive separation, very useful to know where other traffic might be.

[Johnm]

The fundamental point is that for all practical purposes except under IFR in controlled airspace the pilot is responsible for separation.

Traffic service can help with info, deconfliction just gets you vectored all over the sky avoiding traffic unknown to the controller.

[mad_jock]

except under IFR in controlled airspace the pilot is responsible for separation

Nope even then you have the responsibility to see and avoid.

There are 2 ways of operating.

1. Presume everyone is out to get you and you are on your tod. When in VMC in what ever class of airspace head out the window watching for people trying to mug you.

2. Thinking you are safe just because you are talking to someone.

Both my airporox's have been in the UK under the highest level of service available in class G, Advisory and de-confliction. One of them we would have hit if we hadn't spotted it.

While it may be great to know where the traffic is if you focus on that sector and ignore the others your setting your self up for getting mugged from the opposite direction.

[Talkdownman]

Totally agree with mad jock, and that's speaking as an ATSOCA provider since '82. It's the devil's own job, damned if you do, damned if you don't. (CAS high level sectors are a comparative walk in the park...)

[C172R]

Although i have relatively low hours all have been done at a busy aerodrome. One thing that I realized again today is situational awareness is great but always be prepared to change your mental picture, all too often people are not actually where they are reporting they are!

[Johnm]

except under IFR in controlled airspace the pilot is responsible for separation

Nope even then you have the responsibility to see and avoid.


That's a good trick under IFR in IMC in controlled airspace without TCAS.

[mad_jock]

That's a good trick under IFR in IMC in controlled airspace without TCAS.

You can only do your best and to be honest there hasn't been any mid air's in IMC for about 50 years or so in the UK. So IMC is the safest place to be in both controlled and uncontrolled airspace.

[ShyTorque]

So IMC is the safest place to be in both controlled and uncontrolled airspace.

Now, don't encourage more pilots to fly IMC - we rely on them staying VFR below!

TCAS is a useful tool but it doesn't half make you realise how many aircraft come close - the ones you otherwise would have not known about. The longer I'm in this game the more I realise the big sky theory is a flawed concept. :ooh:

[Pace]

I wonder how many midairs are caused by autopilots?
Once the auto is on many pilots are heads down examining charts, making calculations or doing the Sunday times crossword puzzles :ugh:
No auto and maybe they would look out more !

[mad_jock]

Nah they don't they have there heads in looking at the dials completely ignoring the best horizon that god can give you.

I lost count the number of times I have said "we are VMC in class G look out the :mad:ing window"

The rubbish that comes back like we are IFR so have to use the instruments and the like.

[ZuluFoxtrot]

Thanks guys.

[mad_jock]

Nae bother,

Your fear is sort of justified and is healthy if it makes you have a good look out, but not a reason to not go flying.

Just be aware that a good look out is your best defence but if some one is willing to give you a service, yes this is a good thing. Mainly to be able to issue a mayday if you so required but if you presume your going to get no help off them it won't come as a surprise when you don't, and of course if they do help you out its a bonus.

[mm_flynn]

I wonder how many midairs are caused by autopilots?
Almost all midairs are of aircraft not on autopilot, the only two I can think of (in the last 5 years or so), where both aircraft were on autopilot for most/all the run up to the accident, were the Brazilian head on between a CAT and a corporate jet and the überlingen crash between two jets - in the second case both on TCAS and under radar control.

The UK ones are mostly GA GA in or near the pattern, doing aerobatics, or low level maneuvering GA vs fast jet. I doubt any were on autopilot other than maybe G-EYES (the Practice ILS calibrator at Coventry).

Midairs are most likely on a gin clear day at relatively low level with people flying by looking out the window (which is not in any way to see not looking is safer!). But they also are thankfully rair.

[shortstripper]

I had a fright yesterday and it was a seriously close one!

Two of us in a Robin 200 (myself and a VERY experienced instructor) near Clacton. We were in the process of doing a clearing turn prior to some stalls when a Cessna passed directly below at I would estimate no more than 50' !!! Frightened the Cr@p out of me! Especially as neither of us saw it until it passed underneath and would have had no time to react. Worse still, we were both looking extra hard for other aircraft as part of the training checks!

I had one near miss years ago and now this one. Both in areas where flying schools tend to do excersises ... Must be a cautionary note in that surely?

SS

[ZuluFoxtrot]

Hi Shorts...

Yep, that is one of my no go's currently. I know where most of the schools carry out their lessons so avoid these areas.


Strangely I am more confident when doing land aways as crossing through different atz and constantly informing them PACER you anticipate that other aircraft are listening and therefore you have one more 'layer' of protection. Local flying though is the most nerve racking as you take off then bumble around for 45 minutes with no communication until you are rejoining the circuit. :(

ZF