What's the point of this forum?

[airsmiles]

This forum was set up for the benefit of spotters was it not? It may seem odd to have a spotters forum in a professional but that's the decision someone made.

Regardless of whether some forum members approve of 7700 posts, routine videos of shaky landings and now a post about ATC transmissions, this is a spotters forum. I'm seeing more and more unfair posts by the same few posters who can bear for the spotters to have their fun. These people aren't habitual murderers or muggers (I assume), so why the bad attitude from posters who look down on enthusiast activities? Why give these posters a break. The people who need to get a life are the ones who can't bear others to have their fun.

It must be time to either accept the spotters forum for what it is or close it down if it serves no useful purpose in PPRuNE.

[Torque Tonight]

Having a difference of opinion does not mean people are being unfair to you, have a bad attitude or are victimising you. In fact if everyone had identical opinions we could shut down all of pprune as there would be nothing to discuss. Saying this forum should be closed because not everyone agrees with you is like taking your football home because you don't want the other boys to score a goal.

To address some of your point, in the ATC scanner thread you are supporting an activity that is at the moment illegal. Your fun involves monitoring another person's work. Expect a difference of opinion.

The 7700 threads, are objectionable to many professional pilots for the reasons made clear on the other thread. You might have an ambulance chaser mentality - do not count on everyone else to support you.

Regarding the videos, believe it or not, most professional pilots are aviation enthusiasts as well. I'm always keen to see a video that is interesting, unusual or noteworthy. Putting up hundreds of crappy videos of totally routine landings is a waste of time and electrons. Quality not quantity.

If you are such a delicate little flower that any alternative opinion feels like a personal attack, then perhaps interacting with people is not for you. If however you can come back, contribute something positive and understand the reasons behind other people's opinions, then we have achieved something.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Allelujah Torque Tonight - very well said.

[Bye]

you are supporting an activity that is at the moment illegal.

or is he lobbying for the law to be reviewed in this area with a personal bias towards changing that law to allow the legal monitoring of Air Traffic transmissions.

Which i believe to be what democracy is all about.

i agree the 7700 threads are awful, but so are the mass "i know why he crashed more than you do" threads and even worse are the constant posts of " stop discussing the crash and wait for the investigation outcome" or the "on Guard" posters as i call them.

As an engine designer, i don't like it when a pilot says my engine design is cr@p just because it let go just as you were being poured a nice hot coffee.

Your fun involves monitoring another person's work

so is it ok for spotters to write down your arrival times and departure times, or take photo's of you in the cockpit with dirt on trouser knees, or photo's of that not such a greaser landing and print it in a magazine without your approval, etc etc

and as this aspect of your work is performed at times with a service that he owns a percentage of anyway he "may" actually have some obscure sort of "rights" to listen to those transmissions. bit like all government business is open to scrutiny by the public as we own it blah blah Hansard blah.

also if you are concerned about having your work monitored i think you are probably in the wrong business TBH.

ATC transmissions don't have a commercial sensitivity, but ops calls may have, so maybe if they are commercially sensitive they should be encrypted, maybe 121.5 should be encrypted, maybe mode s receivers should be banned along with acars decoders.

But all of this is for policy / law makers to decide, we can have opposing opinions only and not the answer as that depends on law, which can be changed in line with the want of said democracy, although i don't think even UKIP will use spotting as a platform for votes YET.

i agree about videos, waste of pixels or something like that, if you see a good one post a link to you tubes or whatever, and post a reason why we should waste our valuable moments of life surfing to that link and why its so good.

but the worst of all from spotters is the attempts at making out they are pro's by googling something and posting as their knowledge with no depth to the knowledge and complete disrespect for the experience and knowledge of others. There are some really good guys on here who i'm sure don't post much to avoid the stress of pointless, pedants and google experts.

and so to conclude, i say keep the forum bit for spotters but if you go in their to help out spotters remember they are their because you told them to go there for answers and not to treat them any different to the bloke who used to be allowed up to the flight deck to see what you do in that now locked off little world of yours, and that is all they want, a little glimpse of your world. not to monitor you.

and all that is my opinion and mine alone, which means it is neither right nor wrong and is just my opinion, you may agree or you may not it depends on "your opinion"

and you can try to change my opinion by all means, without terrorism of course because we live in a democracy, well sort of.

[22 Degree Halo]

Perhaps those who seemingly take a dislike to any posts in Spotters Corner would do well to actually stick elsewhere on this giant forum board. Are you telling me those who frown upon this part of the forum post here? Wow! How ironic.:rolleyes:

[One Outsider]

Is it obligatory to be insecure when you are a spotter?

[Hotel Tango]

:ok: Well said Bye

[airsmiles]

I'm no delicate flower by any stretch of the imagination, as many of my colleagues would confirm.

The point of the post was that if some seemingly professional posters make snide remarks about the spotters in the spotters section of the forum, what's the point of having the spotters section at all? There either has to be tolerance or there's no point in having it.

[BOAC]

"Dear Sir - I wish to complain most strongly about the appalling pornography on your TV channel last night, starting at 2100. Right up to the end at 2200 I was inundated with 'filth' and am quite disgusted."

Back in the days when I used to mod here, and I as know PPP does now, I tried hard to maintain this as a place where, as bye says,

"and so to conclude, i say keep the forum bit for spotters but if you go in their to help out spotters remember they are their because you told them to go there for answers"

Don't like it, don't open the door? The bandwidth 'wasted' here is not your problem. Encourage them here but think why do you visit?

[Bye]

I'm no delicate flower by any stretch of the imagination

since when has it been wrong to be a delicate flower.

you have as much right to be on here as a delicate flower as you do a bully boy.

be interesting to read the companies bullying / diversity policy.

[wiggy]

The people who need to get a life are the ones who can't bear others to have their fun.

A couple of points from an ex-spotter (Ringway) now with 15000 hours flying under his belt.

I simply don't "get" the rush to post a 7700 spot - at best it smacks of one upmanship, at worse it smacks of ambulance chasing.

Ask the pros a question, by all means - but do remember this was set up as a Professional Pilots Network and be aware that a little knowledge may be a dangerous thing - offering a pro an opinion on his/her landing may well not be well received...

Oh, yep, I did have an airband radio so issues with that side of the hobby but "ops" calls often do contain stuff (e.g; medical) that we'd rather wasn't posted for onwards consumption.

[bhx bod]

This thread has certainly got people in a tiz.
I have been an aviation enthusiast for 30 plus years.I have worked at BHX for 20
plus years.
I have enjoyed listening to a VHF radio,a HF radio(before FR24 it was the only way to find out what aircraft were crossing the Atlantic/Pacific or overflying Africa),still used today however although digital data links are increasingly being used.
I also have used the sbs 1 system as well as ACARS and of course FR24.
So what is my point?The point is if there was such an issue with using such technologies then surely the authorities would already have clamped down on them.These radios,apps and Internet based sites are so easily gotten hold of I would say it is pretty difficult to police.Only banning the sale,distribution and manufacture of items and shutting down of the Internet sites will stop people getting any sort of enjoyment from what is essentially an innocent hobby/past-time.Also I have never passed on anything I have heard or seen whilst using such products.Only last week I switched on my iPad to see what was about on FR24 only to be struck by the lack of planes over Central London.Obviously curiosity took-over and within minutes found what had happened.
The only time a radio comm. or a radar position app can become dangerous is if someone uses it to cause chaos or death.Maybe then and only then the authorities wil look on the use of these items with a bit more suspicion.
Until then many people will continue to be fascinated by what is going on in the airspace above and around them!!!
As far as the Internet is concerned there are far more unsavoury and dangerous
things available for your pleasure if you are that way inclined.:)

[slf4life]

Regarding Outsider's point, I do notice an almost tail between the legs attitude when we 'spotters' post outside of this forum. Many of us first qualify our post with some form of self deprecating term. I don't think it is necessary if one simply contributes without ignorant postulation, particularly if professionals open the door regarding how the public may feel (the 787 battery issues for eg).

Similarly I also notice a palpable, sometimes even unsolicited disdain for 'enthusiasts' from some professionals here. Don't spend a lot of time here, so perhaps I'm ignorant of the havoc that 'enthusiasts' have wrought in the past to engender such vitriol? :8

It's an unfortunate undercurrent I think, particularly for me as where I spend most of my time, professionals and enthusiasts communicate freely about this passion we share, albeit in a different context.

[Hipennine]

Personally, I'd like to see the Spotters area encouraged more, because the amount of blatant spotter stuff on Airlines, Airports and Routes is drowning out the purpose of that board at the moment. Eg all the posts yesterday on the Newcastle thread.

[airbourne]

airsmiles,

You are here just as long as me, and over the past 13 years Ive seen many calls for forums to be shut down, allow only professional pilots etc etc. The same arguments have come and gone, and no doubt this same argument will go that same way.

Im a spotter, but Im also a PPL (A) and (H), yet I still love to look up in the sky and see something passing overhead or if I have some time to kill sit by the airport and see the big jets land.

I welcome the spotters forum, one question that I would ask. How many spotters are now flying the big jets for a living? I would say there is quite a few.

[+TSRA]

Ladies and Gentleman,

In my opinion there are many of us who miss the point entirely, for different reasons. I for one love the idea that PPRuNe has a spotters forum. There are not many industries that promote interest by combining hobbyists with professionals. I would love the idea of being able to talk to a surgeon...I have a feeling it would be a cold day in hell were the medical community to set something up akin to PPRuNe (although if you know of one, let me know).

The issue I have, like many professional pilots, is that too often I find myself sick to the stomach because a spotter has decided it is good fun to chase an aircraft in distress, or wants to comment on the work we do without having the most basic of facts. As someone else pointed out, it is a little frustrating to come on here to provide a professional opinion on a subject for the benefit of spotters, only to be told "that's not what Wikipedia says."

Personally, I enjoy providing information to enthusiasts. So very often it is the enthusiast, or the son/daughter of the enthusiast, who becomes a professional, and can then give something back. I've said before I used to be a spotter so I know what it's like. However, to come and try to give something back only to see people getting a kick from someone in serious trouble, or telling me that my "crosswind landing technique could use some work" does get my back up.

I perhaps wonder if both sides should look to another industry as an example. My aforementioned medical industry will do just fine. Since when are you allowed to listen in on operating or emergency room communications? Since when would a doctor not tell you to stuff yourself if you were to turn around and tell them "nah, you're wrong." Since when do doctors get the chance to sit down with patients and have a good yarn about medical procedures?

Spotters: you need to have a little respect for the pilots who are willing to take their time and provide you with the inside information that makes spotting that much more enjoyable.

Pilots: we need to remember that spotters simply want insight into their hobby and that's it's an honour to be respected in a manner that generates spotting in the first place.

All in all, lets try and have a little more respect from all sides and there should never be a need to get rid of this forum.

That, my friends, would be a cold day all around.

[airsmiles]

Well said +TSRA.

I'm sure most spotters do have the respect for pilots, controllers etc. but you always get the lunatic fringe in any forum who know better.

If both professionals and spotters refrain from commenting negatively on the other group, this would be a sweet forum.

[Bye]

there is also another aspect to the concept of spotting, and that being the prevalence of autism within spotters.

i'm a million miles away from being an expert on the subject of autism, but i do recognise its advantages when writing computer software for example.

i believe that all males have some degree of autism and the level determines whether or not you are good with numbers and have a drive to order and collect things such as aircraft reg numbers and put them neatly in rows.

my nephew is mildly autistic, when he used to play with toy cars he didnt whizz them about he just lined them up neatly and arranged them by size and colour etc. and sure enough he became a registration spotter and a very good computer programmer.

so maybe the wrongly perceived stigma of autism in spotters is a reason for the disdain, as tis often the way to deal with our fears is to shun them and create a hatred for the affected group and cast them out as weirdo's etc.

as i say, i'm no expert in autism, but i really don't see it as a handicap in today's world in fact quite the contrary.

may be controversial, but that's discussion for you. and i'm not saying all spotters are autistic, just that autism MAY cause a pre-disposition to spotting.

[airbus_driver319]

As a side note, ARINC have published a standard and modification to ACARS to digitally encrypt it. Not sure if anyone has started to use it yet... But that is the direction things are moving in! Certainly not changing the UK legislation to allow reception of ATC.

[One Outsider]

While "bye" is off on some peculiar tangent, then question was "What's the point of this forum?". I believe the original point was to reduce the nuisance factor that spotters and similar folks presented in the forums originally reserved for the professionals. In that respect this forum has been a spectacular failure.

The original purpose of PPRuNe seems to have been forgotten by a lot of people and it has now become a free for all, where any Tom, Dick and Clueless Harry can post whatever and wherever they want without any consideration of where they are or what they are.

As a noted sociologist said: The internet has given anyone the means to engage in debate but not the ability. There are an awful lot of people out there who do not know how little they know.

[airsmiles]

Interesting points One Outsider. Someone who thinks they know what they're talking about is much more damaging than someone who knows they don't know much!

As the original poster of this thread, I've become disenchanted with PPRuNe. When I joined I used to be able to post about all sorts of things in different forums and get sensible responses on a range of topics. There used to be an interesting and rewarding relationship between aviation pro's (e.g. pilot's & controllers), other aerospace industry professionals and serious enthusiasts.

Now I find too many pro's of various sorts only too willing to have bash. The assumption for some seems to be that if you post in the misc forums you're a pesky amateur and a nuisance.

[Bye]

While "bye" is off on some peculiar tangent

sorry about that, had a relevant point in my head but lost it when converting to keyboard presses. :\

[Dont Hang Up]

It is described at the top of the page but I will repeat it here...

If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

In other words, it is a place for us amateurs to ask the professionals those questions that bug us from time to time. Which I believe is the only sensible reason to have a Spotters' Forum on a professional pilots website.

There are plenty of dedicated spotter websites for photos and 7700 chasing. Can we keep this one for the purpose intended?

[Evanelpus]

as i say, i'm no expert in autism,

............then why did you write 229 words of utter :mad: on the subject? next time engage brain before writing anything.....muppet!

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

I would have thought that anything about flying is welcome here - unless you are a professional pilot.

[Bye]

since when did you have to be an expert to have an opinion or experience in a subject or to have the right to comment on a subject.

if you have to be an expert in everything you write about then not much would get written would it. :ugh:

and insulting me is hardly justified for writing down my experience is it, but i guess that just shows us everything we need to know about you doesn't it. :mad:

[AndoniP]

I would have thought that anything about flying is welcome here - unless you are a professional pilot

that's what some professionals seem to think unfortunately.

[Ms Spurtle]

How I see it...

If you don't know what you're talking about in any of the other forums, you get deleted.

If you don't know what you're talking about in the Spotters forum, you only get abused.

[One Outsider]

There used to be an interesting and rewarding relationship between aviation pro's (e.g. pilot's & controllers), other aerospace industry professionals and serious enthusiasts.Romantic imaginations of yesteryear. Nostalgia is never what it used to be. How is a "serious enthusiast" different from an enthusiast or spotter? since when did you have to be an expert to have an opinion or experience in a subject or to have the right to comment on a subject.Knowledge and experience leads to understanding. Understanding the subject is required for an informed opinion. It is the proliferation of uninformed opinions based on nothing but the "right" to an opinion and having a keyboard and an internet connection that is getting the professionals to respond as they do. Just look at the R&N forum or even this forum where when a question is asked it is not to learn but to have an already held opinion confirmed.

[lomapaseo]

My first visit to this forum

Any suggestions for me to read what's considered a useless thread vs a good thread in this forum ?

course if fellow posters are called muppets I'l just move on :(

[PPRuNe Pop]

The purpose of this forum seems to be lost - on some at least.

This thread certainly is and best out of the way.

Stick to the principles PPRuNe require and you won't be far out.

PPP