Changing the office

[smujsmith]

Gentlemen,

I have had the honour to partake, as SLF in the pursuit of aviating in many of Her Majesties Aircraft. I even managed over 5000 hours as a hammock operator on the mighty C130. Having followed PPRUNE Military forum for some time, it's notable that many of you "professional manipulators of the bernoulli", have moved through your careers in various roles. As an example, our one and only Beags seems to have done Fast Jets, fast transports into Bulldogs (apologies for the missing types Beags, it's the role I'm thinking of). I'm curious as to how easy is the transition from not just a particular type but dare I say class of "modus operandi"? I know when I went from an ASK18 glider to an Astir (doped fabric to full blown plastic), it frightened the crap out of me. But then, that's gliding. I had a good friend who like me flew gliders for fun. he was an F4 pilot, and had an issue with his eyesight. he ended up as a Captain on Albert, having done routes as his GE I know he missed the "Toom"! I'm sure that many of you real flyers have stories about moving across types, might make an interesting thread.

[CoffmanStarter]

Ooh cross dressing ... this is going to be interesting ...

[smujsmith]

:eek: I was hoping for something more appropriate Coff, but then, if that sort of thing wiggles your joystick, Hey Ho !!!

Smudge

[sittingstress]

Coff,

Three words; gassist perverted thinking :)

ss

[CoffmanStarter]

When getting out of an aeroplane after flying it ... I always had trouble driving my car ... No matter how hard I pulled back on the steering wheel the bloody thing just wouldn't climb :ok:


Just a bit of fun Smudge ... Good idea for a thread topic ! It would be good to see a few of our TP's join this one ...

SS ... You clearly got hold of the FLIP then mate :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

I only learnt two days ago that there is a policy of 4 months between leaving one type and starting an OCU on another, especially one FJ to another, in case one lapses into old checklist patterns.

Also, for a similar reason, the civvies prefer pre-OCU abos to those that have completed training as the abos are less set in the air force way and more malleable to learning the civil systems. Bit like the wannabe who thinks a PPL will help.

[Fareastdriver]

I, along with many others, moved from the V Force to helicopters when the Valiants were withdrawn from service. We went from (120knot-M0.84) to (-15-120knots). The hover height when one got airborne was lower than the cockpit level of our previous aircraft. This was before you started on a completely different technique of actually flying.
When you got to your squadron and started operating there was none of the operations blocks with aircrew meals, Safety Equipment to look after your flying kit, navigators in the back to tell you where to go and refreshing oxygen to clear the hangover.
You were on your own, operating from a rattan basher in the middle of the jungle with compo rations plus anything that they could throw out of the back of a Beverly. A sweaty overall they stayed like that for weeks using maps that looked hand drawn and may have borne a passing resemblance to what you were actually flying over. No hangovers, two cans, (sometimes in their original shape after their paradrop) a night was all that was allowed.

Fantastic!!! The best career move that was ever made for me.:ok::ok::ok:

[BEagle]

I only learnt two days ago that there is a policy of 4 months between leaving one type and starting an OCU on another, especially one FJ to another, in case one lapses into old checklist patterns.

What daft nanny-state nonsense is this?

I didn't find going from the Bulldog back to the VC10K the following day terribly difficult in 1990. An hour's GH on the 'dog with a student on 9 Oct, then 2 trips, 17 landings in the VC10K on the 10th. Similarly after the war I flew a VC10K back from Palermo on 13 Mar, then a FAT and some solo SCTon the 'dog a couple of days later.

It was quite common to instruct on the VC10 and Cherokee on the same day, so I don't know whence comes this trick-cyclist crap about 'lapsing into old checklist patterns' - it sound like utter bolleaux to me!

[Just This Once...]

Switching types within days is very common, so I would be surprised if there was a 4 month policy. During my time with ATEC switching types and roles with a quick sandwich in between seemed ok.

Switching types can be fun, especially when you pull a lever on one type whilst expecting the result on another. A very good friend of mine went back to his native F-16 after flying predominantly 2 seat aircraft with us. He told me he never shook the habit of talking to the nav that was not there to the point of worrying those reviewing his tapes.

[Lima Juliet]

BEags - I agree with you old chum ^^^^^^ :D:D:D:D

Although, the sad loss of the final F3 reported that the pilots lack of recency and the fact that he flew 'puddle jumpers' was cited as a factor. I also think this was "bolleaux" and merely covered up the fact that he had not been given anywhere near enough tome in the F3. Crikey, if you can't tell the difference in flying a Tornado to a GA 'puddle jumper' then there is something seriously wrong! I also know of many GA pilots who fly bizz-jets, wide-bodies, ex-military FJs and helicopters and have no problems.

Once again, I agree, utter "bolleaux". :ugh:

LJ

PS - I've flown as a pilot and navigator in a variety of aircraft (FJs, ISTAR, Helicopters, Light Aircraft, Gliders, Balloons, Microlights) and never had an issue (apart from adjusting to the correct flare height on the smaller aircraft!).

[Wensleydale]

'lapsing into old checklist patterns'


Not so much checklist trouble but during my first trip in a JP at Linton, following about 100 hours in Cessna 150 and Bulldog, I kept trying to hold the stick in my left hand while using the RHS throttle! (I nearly have control).:(

[teeteringhead]

The "4 month gap" is certainly a new one on me - and dreadful if it's happened. What of those lucky souls who fly more than one type regularly, which I've done on a number of tours - not recently tho' :(

I was sat next to a mate once at a dinner in London who was at Coningsby. Could hardly get the grin off his face - he'd flown Hurricane that morning and Typhoon in the afternoon.

Coff's (I hope!) facetious remark at driving after flying reminded me of a visit I did once to Fort Rucker, to look at Apache simulators. They had a rule of no driving within x hours (I think x=4) of a sim trip, because the eyes had got used to a false perspective from the visuals. Until that rule, a large number of pilots had rear-ended the car in front on the drive home after a sim slot!

[and no Coff, rear-ending has nothing to do with cross-dressing!] ;)

[BBK]

A bit off thread buy does anyone know why the ban on guys flying both the Tutor and Vigilant concurrently. Did someone have "checklist confusion"?:confused:

I'm only asking on behalf of those much younger than me!

[Basil]

At one time, I was flying the Viscount as first officer and the Aztec as single pilot. There wasn't a problem.
I then went on to the TriStar. Far Canal! Vertical learning curve. Strange Lockheed switches and aerodynamic bits. Great flight deck though.
The B747 was a bit retro but a much easier conversion and the B744 sooo easy by comparison. It was more difficult going back to the B747 after being spoilt by the pink string, speed trend arrows and great ground effect wing.

Extra performance sometimes initially appears a handful and then you wonder how you ever did without it.

[airborne_artist]

Back in the 70s there was a rule on 705 at CU that studes could not go gliding.

Reputedly a stude had been in a civilian glider and low on finals. He pulled the lever on his left and went down even faster into a Cornish bank (which are in fact solid earth held in place in by granite blocks) with terminal results.

[BBK]

Well I think the Tutor pilots are getting some gliding in anyway. :E

[lightningmate]

Back in the days before senior uniformed and civilian persons destroyed UK Military Flying R&D, multi-type flying at Farnborough was a routine activity. The same was true at Bedford and Boscombe Down.

It was not uncommon to be current on 7-8 types, throw in the different marks and that effectively raised the bar higher still.

One routinely flew a Lightning in the morning and a tail-dragger Shackleton in the afternoon, or vice-versa.

Providing reasonable currency was maintained on the types, as others have noted above, it is not a problem. Indeed, some FJ folk were also current on RW types!

When 100 Sqn was a Canberra Unit, those considered to need a bit more time under the belt before tackling the sharper items were often posted to 100 Sqn for a tour. Some 5 marks of Canberra were allotted to The Ton with different cockpit layouts and systems. Yet young gentlemen considered less able aviators were flying them daily.

Moving on to now, I understand current RAF FJ tps are only allowed to be current on a single type. How the world has changed!

lm

[alisoncc]

Just finished watching a DVD of Women of the ATA called "Spitfire Women". They could start their day flying Tiggy Moths, then a quick trip in a Spitfire, and end the day delivering a Lancaster or Wellington. Some of their log book entries were quite amazing.

[sharpend]

I agree with BEagle on this. I often went from Jaguar to Chipmunk.. Not a problem at all.

Though when I was younger (much younger) I went from Chippy to Bulldog a few times every day. Had to remember whether to push forward after landing or pull back :O

[LateArmLive]

I only learnt two days ago that there is a policy of 4 months between leaving one type and starting an OCU on another

This is simply not true in the RAF (which is what I assume you are talking about) so please let's all stop getting upset.

[Genstabler]

About 30 years after my last trip as a light helicopter pilot and within months of retirement I took advantage of a Joint Services gliding course at Netheravon. Found it a doddle. That is until, arriving at the touchdown point after an immaculate finals, I flared gently and lowered the collective to grease it on. Of course without the spoilers I then floated gently across the airfield!

[charliegolf]

I only learnt two days ago that there is a policy of 4 months between leaving one type and starting an OCU on another
This is simply not true in the RAF (which is what I assume you are talking about) so please let's all stop getting upset.

Correct! It's running at about 3 years now isn't it? Totally safe- there you go!

CG

[Wander00]

See my post in "SDRT" in AHN forum - 8 types and 4 roles - maritime, tactical AT, night fighter and maritime - that's a few changes of office.

[teeteringhead]

There used to be a rule - maybe still is - that ab initio helicopter pilots were not allowed to fly fixed wing during their 2 FTS/DHFS course.

Probably a good idea - for similar sorts of reasons to that indicated above by Genstabler :eek:

[sisemen]

Same issue as pulling back slightly on the steering column when going round a corner in the car. :}

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I left my first type and was refreshing within 3 weeks, and then left my second type to fly my third within a month. Fully intend to have my last day's flying on this one, then be on potentially a whole new type by the time groundschool's finished. Who's invented this 4 month thing?

[pontifex]

Lightningmate (I wonder if I know him) has it right. When I was at Boscombe we were positively encouraged to fill our boots with as much diversity as possible. The best I did was four in one day - Harvard, JP, VC10 and Hawk. I have always thought, however, how lucky I was that all the complex aircraft I flew as a tp had flight engineers (except the V bombers of course).

[MightyGem]

You were on your own, operating from a rattan basher in the middle of the jungle with compo rations plus anything that they could throw out of the back of a Beverly.
All the local hotels were full then? :E

Back in the 70s there was a rule on 705 at CU that studes could not go gliding.
The same in the AAC(1980s) when on the rotary phase. Also there was a ban on new rotary pilots from flying fixed wing until they had 200 hours. I used the fact that I was flying gliders for two years before my course to get this waived. Can't say I ever thought that I was in one when in the other.

[smujsmith]

This is quite interesting chaps. It never crossed my mind about places like Boscombe, Farnborough and Bedford. Obviously the very essence of test flying demands an ability to cross type boundaries. Obviously, being a ground pounder my career has followed a pattern of type course, work that type, next type course etc. the move from Valiant to Helicopter sounds a real life changer. I remember, as a C130 GE hanging out of the back para door whilst an ex Harrier pilot did some, to me, very hairy things with Albert on a fighter affil trip in the Gulf. He told me he only knew one way of flying an aircraft, perhaps that's the best way to do it. It would be very interesting to hear any other " cross dressing " stories that you may have.

Smudge

[sycamore]

Ponti, never had an engineer when I flew the Harvard or JP at A2E2...!
Best day was 7 trips at Bedford,at 3 airfields,2xPuma,2x Hunter6,Gazelle,Auster 9,Bell47; bit disconcerting trying to find the the `speed-jeans` anti-G plug on the Gazelle..That was the same day that P G-J did 5 or 6 trips in the F2/3/6 Lightning hybrid at Bedford.....

[thing]

Not counting glidery things the four (six really if you count switchy and instrument different places stuff) GA types I'm current on pose no problems. Quite happy to jump from one to the other. Indeed when they catch fire on start up you often have to.

Edit: Smuj I was a ground pounder too and I suppose it's similar to working on different a/c types, they're all the same apart from the differences...

[sycamore]

Bit like Herc GEs really,seen one ,seen `em all....except Smudge,whom I remember with affection from the Riyadh Compound days..and later....

[thing]

Same issue as pulling back slightly on the steering column when going round a corner in the car.

I still find myself turning the yoke to taxi when brain is in neutral...:\

[Fly3]

Been rated on 18 types from Hiller 12E to B744 and never once tried to use "My Friend Fred Has Hairy Balls" when not flying a Chipmunk.

[Pontius]

Although I didn't appreciate it AS much at the time, I think I had one of the best jobs in the Senior Service. With one foot in the 899 QFI Dept and the other in the Warfare Dept I leapt different types and different marks on, pretty much, a daily basis. The SHAR FRS1 was clearly different to the FRS2 and this varied quite markedly to the T4 (even then the front and rear cockpits presented a differing view), throw in a Hunter T8M, T8/T7, GA11 with their differences to make things interesting and the vitally important task of remembering which oxygen mask and leg restraints to take. Of course, all that zooming around could prove far too taxing so it was off to drag the RNHF Chippy from the hangar for some vital SCT before towing gliders on the weekend.

In all of that I never tried to hover a Hunter nor deploy the drag chute from a Harrier. Lucky, I suppose, that none of them wanted to go supersonic very easily :)

[RetiredF4]

Near the end of my AF time i had to do CCT (the practical part to gain an ATPL) on a Caravelle simulator. I was crewed with an active F-104 pilot, myself being active F-4. We had no probs at all with the technical procedural and flying stuff, but had to repeat the checkride due to mishandling the communication within the cockpit. I was used to a cockpit gradient ( PIC-WSO) and he was used to say nothing at all and to listen to nobody anyway (alone, unafraid and single seat) . We both had to adjust.
Me think the problem does not lie in the different aircraft, but in different concepts and roles they are flown.

[clicker]

so I don't know whence comes this trick-cyclist crap.....it sound like utter bolleaux to me!

BEagle, from what I've read over the years on this forum I thought that was SOP to have utter bolleaux around the armed forces.

[FODPlod]

Imagine how long it would have taken Winkle to fly all the types he mastered if he'd had to wait four months between each one. Wikipedia: List of aircraft flown by Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown RN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_flown_by_Eric_%22Winkle%22_Brown)