Ryanair's punctuality, or lack of, exposed.....

[kick the tires]

BBC News - Ryanair: Is it really Europe's most punctual airline? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22659822)

[Heathrow Harry]

I think "exposed" is pretty harsh

what was exposed is that there is no systematic, widespread collection of the necessary stats

as usual Ryanair have spotted an opportunity but they are actually based on real numbers - the numbers are just not that comprehensive

[pee]

It's a kind of sensationalism in my opinion. In two ways: not the objective way of analysis we used to get from the BBC journalist and not kind of issue that would require a separate thread here. Without a larger investigation, you have no proof to suggest any lies are being disclosed. I don't think the punctuality is an issue with Ryanair, this 90% punctuality across the entire network could be very close to reality. The only kind of "statistical propaganda" I dare to have some doubts about it's Ryanair's load factor. But again: without proof it's not an issue, unless confirmed.

[E75toDUS]

not the objective way of analysis we used to get from the BBC journalist

Actually, having listened to the original radio broadcast, it is exactly the kind of objective analysis we would all like from any mainstream media (but rarely get from anywhere except the BBC).

At the end of the day, the conclusion was not that Ryanair was lying, but that it is basing its claim on the comparison of two statistics that are not comparable, which are
(i) Analysis of internal Ryanair data, versus
(ii) Trade association figures from 2009 that only include 32 Euro Airlines (out of 200), so its competitors may have improved, or not be in that group of 32.

So whilst they can back up claims about their own punctuality (and indeed the industry experts gave good reasons why FR's punctuality could be very high), there simply aren't any accepted, recent figures to allow any airline to make a robust comparative claim.

Original Broadcast:
BBC Radio 4 - More or Less (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qshd)

Finally... I would prefer to arrive 15 mins late in Düsseldorf than on time in Weeze (all other things being equal) :)

[Phileas Fogg]

Ryanair's punctuality, or lack of, exposed.....

Who gives a :mad:? :)

[jabird]

Finally... I would prefer to arrive 15 mins late in Düsseldorf than on time in Weeze (all other things being equal)

True, but FR's schedules are also heavily massaged so that if there's a delay of 45 mins on the inbound, a quick turnaround and generous arrival timing will usually still result in an "on time" jingle on landing.

I've done about 15 sectors on Ryanair without ever not getting the jingle (iirc), but the problem comes when they really do screw up and the next flight home isn't for 3 days. Caveat Emptor.

[PAXboy]

No need for yet another thread. http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/496656-ryanair-9-a-44.html Post (http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/496656-ryanair-9-a-44.html) #880

Please keep all the FR in one place!

fwiw: I don't think anybody is fooled by the FR 'on time' thing. People know that they changed the times and when they look at the times on paper and what actually happens in real life - it's obvious.

So, just forget about them! :ok:

[racedo]

fwiw: I don't think anybody is fooled by the FR 'on time' thing. People know that they changed the times and when they look at the times on paper and what actually happens in real life - it's obvious.

They state the time the flight will take from A to B, they arrive within that time..................thats it nothing more.

If you book and you know that arrival time is 9.30 then you can pretty much guarantee in Ryanairs case that 85-90% of the time at 9.30 you will be at the airport.

Most passengers want an airline who says it will get you there at 9.30 and actually get you there at that time or before.

[ayroplain]

Well, it's pretty plain that the BBC sought to take the pressure off BA so they dream up something about Ryanair that they hope will divert the attention. You have to fly regularly with FR to know just how good their punctuality is.

[Sober Lark]

Scheduled departure time 08.00 scheduled arrival 09.20. Airborne time 50 mins. The scheduled arrival time appears to be the first distortion of information presented to consumers.


Secondly, I imagine airlines don't collect data in the same way. For some we have to trust the accuracy of their manual records whilst others which use an automated system and for some it could be a mix of both.


In a way the figures probably work against the airline as the consumer feels the airline must be encouraging employees to undertake to reduce arrival delays by exerting greater effort especially in the later stages of the flight right down to taxi-in times.


Consumers know the figures produced are really the result of some form of gaming behaviour amongst airlines and personally I prefer to envisage a less stressed approach and I can do without the loud flourish of brass instruments.

[DaveReidUK]

Scheduled departure time 08.00 scheduled arrival 09.20. Airborne time 50 mins. The scheduled arrival time appears to be the first distortion of information presented to consumers.Schedule padding (to improve the punctuality stats) isn't new, it's been around for years, and it's by no means confined to Ryanair.

I recall reading recently that the average JFK-LAX scheduled block time is 27 minutes longer than it was 25 years ago

[Capetonian]

Schedule padding to improve apparent reliability statistics has a downside. On routes where several flights are operated, the default sort order used by the GDSs is an algorythm based on departure time and EFT. Therefore the flights that have the longer EFT will appear lower down and are thus less likely to be sold. Since they nearly all do this, it probably doesn't make much difference, and in the case of Ryanair, none at all since they go to places other airlines don't go to and mostly don't want to go to!

[deecie]

Another thing to consider is that it's up to the individual airline to define "Departure" and "Arrival".

I remember reading before that Ryanair define their departure time as the second that the main door closes and arrival as the second the wheels hit the runway.

These statistics can be manipulated to suit any argument.

[PAXboy]

That sounds entirely possible deecie. I understood that 'official' automated data collecting is Parking Brake OFF to ON. But it really does not matter. One has to assume that any and every sector will be 15 minutes late as standard. Trying to book onward connections or appointments based on actual times is a lesson in frustration.

Not least, the delays that you will encounter on the roads/trains etc are likely to be considerably more!

[DaveReidUK]

Another thing to consider is that it's up to the individual airline to define "Departure" and "Arrival".No, it isn't.

Ryanair, like any EU airline, is bound by the provisions of EU261 regarding departure delays.

If, say, an aircraft sits at the gate with the doors closed for 30 minutes waiting for an ATC slot then arguing that it has "departed" won't wash with the Commission.

[jabird]

If, say, an aircraft sits at the gate with the doors closed for 30 minutes waiting for an ATC slot then arguing that it has "departed" won't wash with the Commission.

But even if the a/c has no gate delays, the logical definition of "departure" is surely the point of rotate, as that is when the craft transfers from being a bus with wings to airborne. However, I think pilots have more important concerns at that point.

[Capetonian]

Departure = start of pushback
Arrival = docking at gate/final park position.

That's my understanding as far as timetabling is concerned.

[DaveReidUK]

Departure = start of pushback
Arrival = docking at gate/final park position.

That's my understanding as far as timetabling is concerned.Exactly. Or, more generally, departure is movement off the gate (to include airports that don't use pushbacks).

[WHBM]

If, say, an aircraft sits at the gate with the doors closed for 30 minutes waiting for an ATC slot then arguing that it has "departed" won't wash with the Commission.
I bet it does. It certainly does in the USA where aircraft are pushed back "on time" 10 feet, to then wait for pushback clearance.

Likewise arrival. Ryanair blast out their "on time arrival" toodle-doodle-doo in the cabin on touchdown, whereas the correct moment is of course arrival on stand. But at least this is better than BA approaching Heathrow, where you can get the standard "on time arrival" spiel from the flight deck around Top of Descent, before you have even got to the Lambourne hold .........

[DaveReidUK]

I bet it does.OK, bad example. You're right, of course - ATM delays beyond the airline's control don't fall within the provisions of EU261.

But my original point stands - it's very hard to argue that an aircraft has "departed" when it hasn't moved. :O

[jabird]

But my original point stands - it's very hard to argue that an aircraft has "departed" when it hasn't moved.

Well I won't take you up on that, but the core point of schedules for SLF is "when do I get to the airport" and "when am I free to leave" - ie I've got my bags back (if I checked any in) and I've been through any relevant passport / customs checks.

No obviously a lot of the above is nothing to do with the airline, but the whole question for journey planning is t-x for departure and t+y for arrival.

In the case of a train, I know I can arrive at the station concourse and be on the platform 5 seconds later, so with 40 seconds for door closure, I can get to the station 1 minute before departure and still make my train.

If the train is late, I can check the time online, and arrive at the station perhaps 5 mins before, in case it catches up a small amount of time.

This is the thing that gets SLF the most - they have to be at the airport regardless, and (iirc), if they've checked bags in, they shouldn't leave the airport, even if the flight is late.

My brother was spouting off last week about an FR flight being an hour late, and not getting an apology. I said that was really no big deal for a 4 hour flight (back from Greece), and stop fussing. The delay was, of course, inconsequential, but he was just flapping because he was caged in a small terminal with nothign better to do.