SEP IR Renewal OR MEIR Renewal?

[BigglesWannabee]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is in the right place but here goes. I need to renew my IR - it lapsed in September 2010 and I would like to renew it before the new EASA regulation of 3 years comes around in September of this year.

I only really want to renew just so I don't have to go into getting CAA examiners on board etc. Could someone please tell me if I can renew on the SEP rather than the MEP? Will this reset the new 3 year rule?

Obviously renewing on the SEP will save me a load of money but would anyone advise against this from an employment perspective? I have the money to renew on the multi but wouldn't know where to go to do this - any suggestions?

Many thanks

[pipertommy]

Similar position, thought it was just a seven year rule + ATO required training prior to renewal ? Over seven you have to do the whole course again ?

[mad_jock]

It all came in last September in the UK.

The 3 year thing will affect your MEP class rating as well as the IR.

If you don't have a SPA-ME-IR you can't really apply for jobs because you need it valid to start a type rating.

There is a bloke called bose-x in the private flying forum that runs an ATO and seems a sensible bloke on here anyway. Give him a shout and see what he recons you need.

[BigglesWannabee]

Ok guys, I will look up bose-x and see what he says. Maybe it's better to just take the hit and go for the renewal on the multi? Anyone know a decent place to this? Thanks

[BigglesWannabee]

Hi again, I have just trawled through CAP 804 and cannot see anything about this 3 year rule EASA has brought in. Can anyone clear this up? All I can find is a bit about having to redo the entire IR course after 7 years. I also cannot find anything about the 3 year rule with regards to multi engine class ratings and so on :confused:

[flyingfox320]

Hi guys,

The requirements is described in AMC to part FCL (AMC1 FCL.625(c) IR — Validity, revalidation and renewal) :) I hope it helps... :) an remember useful information are almost always in AMC to Part FCL ( EC 1178/2011)

Rgds

[BigglesWannabee]

flyingfox320, thank you for the heads up. Just to clarify, for the MEP rating, an expiry of more than 3 years would mean basically taking the training all over again? And for the IR, as long as the expiry is less than 7 years, a minimum of 3 training sessions will be required? So basically there is no 3 year rule for the IR but there is for the MEP?

[flyingfox320]

Exactly for MEP is the 3 year rule and for IR 7 year rule....:) if you let the MEP expire for more than 3 years you need to do training all over again...

[Jet Simulation]

If you revalidate your IR as an SEP IR you will find yourself at a disadvantage as a SEP IR holder is not able to fly an MEP at a later date IFR, however a MEP IR holder can fly SEP IFR any time. In order to do a type rating you will require a MEIR, however not a valid MEP.

Your MEP needs to be revalidated once every three years or you will have to do the MEP course again. There is a little grey area hear however not an expert on it as the rules have recently changed, as you have stated already. The main reason most people keep this current is to keep the option of light aircraft MEP jobs open if they come along.

The most cost effective way to sort this out is do an MEP revalidation each time you revalidate your IR in the aircraft (every other year) as this will save on multi hire rates and its only one examiner fee. You will have to do this with a renewals examiner though, although not directly with the CAA.

Give your local school a ring and shop around! the prices tend to vary quite a bit depending on where you are.

[maxed-out]

Jet Simulation,

The problem with renewing the MEP every other year in the a/c whilst renewing the MEIR, is that the student needs to undergo MEP refresher training ( as it's been longer than a year if he/she renewed in the sim the previous year). I thinks it's 4 sessions.

So how is the examiner going to be able to sign off a pilots MEP (lapsed and ATO certificate needed) together with the MEIR (still in date and no ATO certificate needed)? This EASA thing is a mess!!

[Jet Simulation]

I see your point maxed-out, and a very good one it is too.

Just done some digging around in the office this evening to see what we come up with and here are some extracts.

Cap804: Page 340

FCL.1030(b)(2) – Type and Class Rating Renewal Arrangements
Where the type rating has expired by more than 3 years, or has been removed from Section XII on page 4 of the licence, the application must be submitted to Licensing & Training Standards for the certificate of revalidation entry by the UK CAA, and a fee will apply. Where the type rating has expired by less than 3 years, and is included in Section XII on page 4 of the pilot’s licence, the examiner may sign the certificate of revalidation included in the licence.

It also refers us to FCL740 which states for MEP renewals the following on page 247:

AMC1 FCL.740(b)(1) Validity and renewal of class and type ratings
RENEWAL OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS: REFRESHER TRAINING

(a) Paragraph (b)(1) of FCL.740 determines that if a class or type rating has lapsed, the applicant shall take refresher training at an ATO. The objective of the training is to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant type or class of aircraft. The amount of refresher training needed should be determined on a case-by-case basis by the ATO, taking into account the following factors:
(1) the experience of the applicant. To determine this, the ATO should evaluate the pilot’s log book, and, if necessary, conduct a test in an FSTD;
(2) the complexity of the aircraft;
(3) the amount of time lapsed since the expiry of the validity period of the rating. The amount of training needed to reach the desired level of proficiency should increase with the time lapsed. In some cases, after evaluating the pilot, and when the time lapsed is very limited (less than 3 months), the ATO may even determine that no further refresher training is necessary. When determining the needs of the pilot, the following items can be taken into consideration:
(i) expiry shorter than 3 months: no supplementary requirements;
(ii) expiry longer than 3 months but shorter than 1 year: a minimum of two training sessions;
(iii) expiry longer than 1 year but shorter than 3 years: a minimum of three training sessions in which the most important malfunctions in the available systems are covered;
(iv) expiry longer than 3 years: the applicant should again undergo the training required for the initial issue of the rating or, in case of helicopter, the training required for the ‘additional type issue’, according to other valid ratings held.
(b) Once the ATO has determined the needs of the applicant, it should develop an individual training programme that should be based on the initial training for the issue of the rating and focus on the aspects where the applicant has shown the greatest needs.

So as you can see from the above, yes additional training may and probably will be required to be done by an ATO, however with the way it is written additional training is suggested and should be determined with experience by the ATO.

Now when you come to do your IR revalidation, 99% of pilots will require some sim time in order to get use to the aircraft again and then go and do their tests. From our pool of instructors the average amount of sessions was two. In the information above nowhere does it state that the refresher training must be done in the aircraft. I suggest that in this case your refresher training can happen during your IR sim practices therefore you can complete the MEIR and MEP skills test in one flight, while also fulfilling training requirements.

I suspect if you speak to your flight school they may tell you the same thing and they are the best people to speak to regarding your situation. Unfortunately we do not deal with MEP or SPIR revalidation ourselves so can not comment with absolute certainty, however with the numerous queries we have sent off to the CAA on previous customers behalf, our translations of CAP804 have been accepted.

I hope this helps!

[maxed-out]

Jet Simulation,

That's how I read the CAP too and thanks for the input. However what astounds me is the fact that the CAA seem happy for a pilot to jump into an MEP aircraft with an in date IR, complete a Me ir revalidation without any refresher training, gain a pass if the examiner feels we're safe and competent in all the tasks given to us but yet they feel we need refresher training through an ATO to have the mep renewed too. Even though we have just spent the last 2 hours in the bloody thing proving we can fly ifr and land in vfr. Madness! A lot of us are in current flying practice and often dont go through a school to renew. This new arrangement only benefits the ATO's.

[Jet Simulation]

I understand your frustration maxed- out, however although the IR flight is quite intense, there are still aspects of the MEP test which is done VFR and not tested during an IR exam. For example, steep turns and visual circuits (single engine as well) with a single engine go around at ACA.

Because of these points you are not able to adequately show and pass those parts of the flight test in the simulator. Due to this the entire MEP will have to be done in the aircraft separate to the IR flight in the sim.

This has been the case before EASA as well however in the new rules, we do not believe they were made with specific scenarios in place like this one. One can see the logic in it for say a pilot who has not flown the privileges of a TR over the last year but maybe some more leeway can be used for this specific scenario like the wording of the transcripts above suggest. Lets just see how much one can take out of it through translation before the CAA say no!

It would be interesting to learn what your flight school tells you when you put this question to them. Please keep us posted.

[maxed-out]

Jet,

Paragragh two of your post indicates that you havnt understood my posts. I was talking about revalidation of IR in the aircraft and not being granted an MEP renewal too. Nothing to do with sim.

[Jet Simulation]

I have maxed- out,

What I was trying to say was that there are aspects of an MEP flight test (The VFR parts) which are not covered in a IR flight test when renewing/ revalidating. These same parts are not able to be done in a simulator either hence only being able to renew the MEP in the aircraft. Because of this you can either do a joint MEP/ IR flight test for the revalidation or do two separate ones if doing your IR in the sim.

Technically you are flying on your examiners licence during the test so you do not need a valid MEP to get your IR sorted. I do see your point about is being counter productive and pointless for us, however I believe this is the way the CAA have chosen to keep it as there are allot of people who fly MEP's VFR.

Hope you get clarification on your situation soon and look forward to hearing about your findings.

[turbine100]

If you renew the IR on a single engine, is that enough to be able to start a type rating course?

[Jwscud]

You need a valid ME-IR to start a type rating. If it runs out during the type rating, it's not a problem, but it has to be valid the day you start your training.

[BillieBob]

You need a valid ME-IR to start a type rating.No, you needed a valid ME-IR to start a first MPA type rating course under JAR-FCL 1. Under Part-FCL, however, the requirement is only to hold a multi-engine IR(A), there is no requirement for it to be valid.

[Jet Simulation]

Hi Billie,

Are you sure about that? I am under the impression that the MEIR needs to be valid however not the MEP. I am not sure if I have read your response correctly and if that is infact what you actually mean.

[BillieBob]

JAR–FCL 1.250 Type rating, multi-pilot – Conditions

(a) Pre-requisite conditions for training: An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi- pilot aeroplane type shall:
(1) have at least 100 hours as pilot-incommand of aeroplanes;
(2) have a valid multi-engine instrument rating (A);
FCL.720.A Experience requirements and prerequisites for the issue of class or type ratings — aeroplanes

(d) Multi-pilot aeroplanes. An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi-pilot aeroplane shall be a student pilot currently undergoing training on an MPL training course or comply with the following requirements:
(1) have at least 70 hours of flight experience as PIC on aeroplanes;
(2) hold a multi-engine IR(A);

There is no mention of validity anywhere in FCL.720.A. It is, of course, possible that there is an assumption that you cannot 'hold' an invalid rating. The fact that ratings not valid when the licence is re-issued are transferred to a box entitled "Ratings previously held by licence holder" might be taken to support this assumption. If this is the case then any requirement in Part-FCL for an applicant to 'hold' a qualification must be taken to mean that the qualification must be valid, which raises all sorts of problems.

[2close]

To go back to the OP, an IR can be kept current on either SEP or MEP, however, a ME IR also confers SE IR privileges (provided a valid SEP rating is held) whereas the reverse does not apply (even if a MEP rating is held).

Unless I desperately needed a current ME IR I would probably revalidate the SE IR for 2 years and then do the required MEP refresher training (if necessary) and ME IR renewal every third year.

Saying that, it would probably work out cheaper to revalidate the ME IR every year, with alternate years on the Sim.

I suppose it all boils down to what you actually need the IR for and what you are actually flying on a regular basis.

Just my thoughts.

:O

[Jet Simulation]

2 Close,

Many airlines do have a requirement of having the MEIR valid at the time of application or they will simply not consider you. For this reason alone quite a few pilots choose to keep it valid in order to keep the options open in an already small set of choices.

Your point about the SEIR and MEIR is a very valid point which one must take into consideration. The MEIR gives you privileges to fly an SEP IFR however you can't do it the other way around.

[MichaelPL]

Bump. Just spent an hour and a half digging through EC 1178/2011. In particular I was looking for legislation concerning that The MEIR gives you privileges to fly an SEP IFR however you can't do it the other way around.However I cannot find any statement there which would confirm that. Where does it say that holding a valid SEP(L), valid MEP(L) and a valid IR/ME I can also fly a single engine under IFR?

My current situation is as follows: valid SEP(L), MEP(L), IR/SE. All of those are valid up to more or less Nov/Dec 2013. I'm planning to do IR/ME training (I do not hold, and never held IR/ME) and subsequent proficiency check around Oct/Nov 2013. The proficiency check would be combined with revalidation of MEP(L) class rating.

As for SEP(L) I thought to revalidate on the 12 months rule.

The question is - as mentioned in the first paragraph - will I be ok to fly a SEP(L) aircraft under IFR after I do all that?

[BillieBob]

Just spent an hour and a half digging through EC 1178/2011.You missed Appendix 8 to Annex I 'Cross-crediting of the IR part of a class or type rating proficiency check'. Note, however, that this applies only to revalidation. The skill test for the MEIR will not revalidate your SE privileges but subsequent ME revalidations will.

[MichaelPL]

Thanks for the reply BillieBob. I did not miss the appendix, and I understand it in the same way as you put it - cross-credit applies only when revalidating IR/ME, not doing the check for the first time.

There have been a couple of posts in this thread though stating that if one posesses a valid IR/ME (like I will when I gain it) one is also entitled to fly SEP in IFR (so - no need to revalidate IR/SE ?)

Thing is, I cannot find anything to confirm this in 1178/2011.

[BillieBob]

Probably because that was the case under JARs. JAR-FCL 1.180 stated "....the privileges of a holder of a multi-engine IR(A) are to pilot multi-engine and single-engine aeroplanes under IFR....". However, that privilege was not carried over to Part-FCL and, unless and until the law is changed or the competent authority issues a derogation under Article 14(7), cross-crediting does not apply to the skill test for initial issue of an IR.

Another example of the dangers of allowing a bunch of inept bureaucrats loose on something they patently don't understand.

[MichaelPL]

Thanks.

So that just confirms what I've been fearing - to retain the privilege of flying single engine under IFR I'll need to do a IR/SE revalidation on top of all that. Eh :(

[pipertommy]

Question regards the seven year rule. I hold an expired ME/IR, if I revalidate my IR on SE/IR for say ten years for example and then I want to revalidate my IR on a ME a/c to regain my ME/IR where would I stand ? Basically would I have retake the whole ME/IR course ? Ect
Thanks

[mad_jock]

I don't think you would have to do the IR course again but you would have to redo the mep class.

[pipertommy]

Thanks mad jock. My MEP gone with easa rule as it was last renewed over 3 years ago.
All I am thinking is SE IR for now and revalidate the ME IR if a job opportunity presented for TR requirements.

[BillieBob]

Your MEP has not 'gone', it has simply expired and may be renewed at any appropriate ATO by completing whatever training is required to re-achieve the standard required to pass a proficiency check. This myth about ratings being 'lost' after a period of time seems widespread.

[mad_jock]

I love you to tell us which ATO won't extract the full class rating course for MEP out of a pilot for more than 3 years out of check.

Two OPC's, 500 hours a year in a twin turbo prop and they still want me to do the whole thing again. So a full course to learn how to use mixture levers and cowl flaps again.

[pipertommy]

Thanks. I'm struggling to workout exactly these new rules. Confusion indeed

[pipertommy]

I would like to check that it's still possible to hold a MEIR without a valid MEP rating ? ie for TR purposes

[Jet Simulation]

Pipertommy,

Yes you can. for a TR purpose, you require a valid MEIR, not an MEP. However as you have to renew your IR in the aircraft every other year, you might as well do the MEP at the same time to keep it on your licence. It will be cheaper than having to take an aircraft up especially for an MEP as the test can be covered during the IR renewal as well.

[drag king]

Two OPC's, 500 hours a year in a twin turbo prop and they still want me to do the whole thing again. So a full course to learn how to use mixture levers and cowl flaps again.

Didn't have to go that far to renew my FI, so I would take that the same ATO won'r rip me off on this matter neither. Maybe you'll have to cross the border before Scotland's independence... :E

[pipertommy]

Thanks JS, ! Appreciated.
I have almost saved the funds to get the ratings back. Just vague on the MEP which expired back in 2009...... whole course again or additional required training?? I`ll be contacting an ATO soon and all should become clear :rolleyes:

[Norcat]

If this topic has not been completely flogged to death, I am still a little grey on one area of the ME and IR "validity".
Having determined that MEP expires after 3 years, and IR expires after 7 years, when does your MEIR expire?
To the point it cannot be used to comply with entry requirements for a MPA Turbojet Type Rating Course.