Woolwich

[Dunky]

Really shocking news about this vile, cowardly attack. My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of this young man.

[NutLoose]

Mine too :(

[cornish-stormrider]

Me too, stand easy Tommy,
Thoughts and prayers to your nearest and dearest.

[smujsmith]

My full commiserations to the victim whether military or not. News reports that, after the first COBRA meeting, police guarding around Woolwich Barracks has been "beefed up". I suspect thats the bleeding heart politicians trying to stop the lads going out looking for "other suspicious individuals". I'm sick of seeing Muslim gangs "grooming" young teenaged girls for sex. Muslim gangs gang raping white girls. And now this. When are we going to stop this, or are we all afraid of being labelled racists ? The people perpetrating these crimes never get accused of racism, and yet look at their targets. Sorry all, I'm just sick of what happened, what the politicians will do to cover it up and how everyone will shrink from saying what is true in our politically correct society. Rant over.:mad:

[Saintsman]

Cowardly sums it up.

Their god may be great but I'm pretty sure he would be totally embarrassed at this sort of event.

RIP

[Ivor Fynn]

Death penalty please.

Ivor

smuj - I agree

[tonker]

Both shot by a FEMALE PC.

[glad rag]

And still live.

Which is all well and good in our pc age as the Police can't be held to account of using excessive force.

"Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of Woolwich Barracks"

[Alber Ratman]

Good, still alive so the big wigs can be found out.

[Always a Sapper]

Terrible event, RiP lad, it should never had been allowed to happen.

Its long past the time for the Govt to wake up and really start to do something about the real issues facing the country rather than wasting parlimentry time on some stupid wedding legislation for a very small but loud & in yer face minority group!

[Always a Sapper]

Three threads on this subject taken down on ARRSE so far by the censor!

[Lima Juliet]

I can't believe the live reports I'm reading. It is alleged that they were beheading the individual in broad daylight in London and in front of crowd. It is also reported that unarmed Police were on scene at the end of the road just keeping the crowd back and waiting for an armed response unit - I would hope that if I was being hacked to death by nutjobs that the Police would do at least something to help (if that report is true). If I had been one of the passing motorists and seen this I would have run the f^ckers over - you can't wield a knife with broken arms and fingers!

I stopped to help a motorist who was being subjected to some serious road-rage last week where he had been cut up by an idiot who was overtaking a queue of slow moving traffic. I was in uniform and lent the poor chap my support in firmly but politely asking the pr!ck in a pick-up van to get in his vehicle and move on. I walked past 3 cars with grown men sitting there doing nothing and at least another dozen cars behind. I got a couple of thumbs up from them at the roundabout and thanks from the besieged motorists - but most were willing to sit there and watch it just happen. Is this what we've come to? Is this the "not my job guv" or "where's my help, I'm totally pathetic" culture we've got into?

Disgusted and disappointed, would some it up.

God speed Tommy...:(

LJ

[diginagain]

Three threads on this subject taken down on ARRSE so far by the censor! The 'Moderators' are having to do a lot of work tonight, not helped by some of the more rabid contributors. Having witnessed some of the postings on the now-deleted threads, they are at least trying to keep reasonable debate going. Just as on any Internet forum, it gets out-of-hand occasionally.

[Tashengurt]

Leon, I can categorically state that I would also have run the f*ckers over. An appropriate use of force.
Sometimes doing nothing shouldn't be an option.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[500N]

Tonker

Why the need to highlight FEMALE PC ?

The media is doing the same.

[Herod]

500N: Poetic justice.

[Gullwings]

‘If’ it is true that it took 20 minutes for armed Police to arrive outside an Army Base where one of its own soldiers (or anyone else) was being killed, this begs the question why armed Army and/or other base security staff could not have gone to his aid? I therefore hope that a very urgent enquiry will ask this question and address it. Are Police/Local Bases not in good communications with each other and able to support each other in such exceptional circumstances? If this had been a bigger Mumbai terror attack then just how many people could have been killed before any armed Police/Military turn up to tackle such a threat? (Even when it takes place in London!)

[500N]

Herod

Thanks

[thing]

I'm sick of seeing Muslim gangs "grooming" young teenaged girls for sex. Muslim gangs gang raping white girls. And now this. When are we going to stop this, or are we all afraid of being labelled racists ?

First of all condolencies to the family of the young man butchered in the street in this horrendous attack.

As to your point, I fully agree. I'm also sick of seeing Christian gangs doing the same thing in this country.

[Rigga]

RIP young lad. Whoever you are, you didn't deserve this.


My Beef is with the BBC who are giving "the oxygen of publicity" (again) to the gits who did this - when they should actually be showing the footage of the Lady Shooter taking them down.

I believe that would prevent many more lunatics from trying this.

[thing]

I believe that would prevent many more lunatics from trying this.

Sadly, I don't think it would.

[Bastardeux]

Is this what we've come to? Is this the "not my job guv" or "where's my help, I'm totally pathetic" culture we've got into?

Couldn't agree more, front-line police were all issued tasers in 2008, they should have immediately started putting rounds on target.

And yes, I think it can be added to a growing list of examples of the anonymous "they" being responsible for everything.

Very sad news, RIP.

[thing]

Lets not have trial by forum. I would imagine the attack would have been over fairly quickly, we don't know where the police were and it does look like as eye witnesses have said that there was a car crash and the two perpetrators were seen to be going to the aid of a man who was injured. Not so as it turned out obviously but 'I would have done this ' etc is fine in hindsight.

You don't expect a man to be hacked to death in the street in London, you would think something else was happening regardless of what you might think you would have done.

[Lima Juliet]

I've just listened to the radio interview on here Shocking Account of Woolwich Attack | LBC (http://www.lbc.co.uk/listen-woolwich-eyewitness-describes-attack-72446)

WARNING - it's pretty raw but it does mention other Police standing by and waiting for Armed Response. It also mentions people standing by and filimng it. I feel sorry for "James" giving the report, he sounds pretty shaken. He will also have to live with the thought of whether he could have done something to help and that is why I would rather do something than not try at all - better do something in a split second than suffer a lifetime of torture wishing you had done it.

On the 10 o'clock news I saw one woman on TV walk nonchalently past one of the murderers as if nothing was happening! The BBC blanked out her face; why? However, a massive well-done to the woman you can see trying to do something whilst the murderers were still at large - sadly though it looks like the victim had already died. Also, "James" did the very best he could by calling for the Police as soon as he could.

This tragic incident has certainly polarised my view that if confronted with such an attrocity I will do my utmost to stop it. I hope the radio interview convinces others too.

LJ

[smujsmith]

I've read and re read this thread. Maybe I'm a bit long in the tooth, maybe I've got some sort of "chip" on my shoulder, but. When my Grandad was giving his life to make sure that our country was a decent law abiding democracy, I'm sure he never would have envisioned what we are now seeing. The police? Well, for the past 10 years or so the police service has become, politicised, eurosised and neutered by successive governments. The root cause of this problem is the swathes of Muslim "communities", imposed on our cities. It gives the radicals a place to hide, the mosques provide a focal point for training and subversion. Lets face it, all tactics we would use against our own perceived enemies.

Why though have successive governments ignored warnings on this ? Why will we have to listen to various politicians and the Muslim League of UK telling us its ok, it's only two people ? I know this is another rant on the same thread but I believe the biggest problem we have in this country these days is that we are scared of expressing our opinions. Well here is where you would expect that famous quote from Edmund Burke. Something like ‘All that’s necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.’ Not sure of the exact quote, I looked it up. Here’s what I found: ‘When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle. We need to wake up and sort all this PC rubbish out, or get ready for Sharia law. Sorry if it offends but what we are witnessing in this country today is an outrage, perpetrated by people who have been given shelter and safety by this country, that's the thanks you get for all that.

Smudge

[thing]

Leon, while personally endorsing your views, we don't live in a society that in general would get involved. Not through cowardice or lack of moral compass but through a general conception that

a. someone will deal with it and

b. an underlying fear that if they do get involved they may have questions to answer in court.

A good friend of mine broke a boy's nose when he heard a commotion outside of his house. Turns out it was just a boy and his girlfiend larking around. Boy's parents tried to nail him to the wall. He now has GBH on his record and was lucky not to go to jail.

I think that most people think twice these days before 'getting involved.'

[thing]

Why though have successive governments ignored warnings on this ? Why will we have to listen to various politicians and the Muslim League of UK telling us its ok, it's only two people ? I know this is another rant on the same thread but I believe the biggest problem we have in this country these days is that we are scared of expressing our opinions.

Jeesus. No pun intended. I think you will find Smuj that the vast majority (why do I even need to say this) of Muslims in this country are as appalled as you and I. Do you remember the IRA? They are Christians. Apparently. It's time we had enough of this, let's send all the bloody Christians back to where they came from.

[Lima Juliet]

Thing, I am also in agreement with your last thoughts - you can't even teach Boy Scouts first aid anymore without elf&safety sticking their oar in. No wonder people don't have any 'nouse' anymore; it has been drummed out of them by successive sh!te Govt and Quango policy!

:ugh: where's my bloody time machine!

LJ :ok:

[500N]

thing

I am afraid you might be correct.

[Lima Juliet]

Thing, I agree and to quote Stephen Fry on religion...

Stephen Fry Religion, **** it - YouTube

There is one fundamental problem - Religion always will and always has caused more wars, deaths and murders than anything else...

...now where is my Prof Dorkins book!

[NutLoose]

It also mentions people standing by and filimng it

Oddly enough I don't have a problem with that as you do not know their reasoning behind it, they may well have been recording it to hand it in to the police as evidence, if it was filmed to go on the likes of you tube I would prosecute them as an accessory to murder.

An American friend of mine witnessed an air crash and carried on shooting photos at a show, he was berated by the people standing nearby unbeknown to them that he was an aircraft engineer and realised the photos he was taking could help the investigators determine what happened, he promptly handed the images in after the show ended.

[thing]

Dawkins darling...:). One of the only purveyor of sense in this bonkers world.

[smujsmith]

Thing

I absolutely agree with what you say. What I was trying to suggest was that there are organisations, including our own government, who use the racist charge against anyone who dares to suggest that it's more than just a couple of blokes doing this stuff. The fact is that the same organisations have created the problem by getting involved in foreign "adventures" of dubious pedigree. In the past, such action has rarely led to the evil we have seen today. But it seems we are already witnessing the reaction of the right wing nutters on the streets tonight. Perhaps modern politicians should factor this sort of thing into their foreign policy in future.

What I do know is that I am very sad that, once again, someone has lost their life in a violent manner to satiate someone's desire to promote one religion over another. And that it is happening in our capital city, in broad daylight and seemingly unhindered for at least 20 minutes. I'm sorry if what I think offends you in any way, I certainly mean no offence to Muslims, Jews or any other religion (I have many friends who belong to all of these religions) and would not label a whole social group by the action of a few people but surely what we have seen today can only be described as barbarity. And as such can only be vilified for what it is.

Smudge

[thing]

An American friend of mine witnessed an air crash and carried on shooting photos at a show

Pal of mine was injured by being knocked off his bike by a Landrover just outside of my quarter at Cosford (anyone who knows Cosford it was the road just outside the Sgts Mess gate). I heard the crunch, saw that he was moaning on the deck IE OK so dashed back inside to grab my camera, this before internet etc. I was berated on all sides for taking pics of him, the skid marks et al. Those pics got him a 4 figure pay out; not a small figure in those days.

[thing]

Smuj

I'm sure that the major purpose of attacks like these is to cause conflict between religions. I have to say at this point that I'm a confirmed died in the wool atheist so I can, or at least I hope I can be impartial. Whatever they have done in the 'name of Islam' I sincerely hope that we as a society can stay cool and not react in any way to what is merely ( and I don't belittle what happened this evening) provocation. I hear at this point that they may have been an attack on a mosque. Well done dickheads, just what they want.

[smujsmith]

Thing

Like you, I have no religion other than no religion. And I second your thoughts re provocation, which it looks like, has been successful this evening. Maybe I need to find a yellow teapot and a wee dram or two and lie down for a while. Stay happy.

Smudge

[NutLoose]

Grrrrrrr I cannot believe that ITV showed the footage of the body lying in the street and the murderers talking to the cameras... :ugh:

That's given them exactly what they wanted.

[500N]

Nutloose

It seems every newspaper I have read has the pictures
of the bodies. Am surprised at that.

[SASless]

WARNING - it's pretty raw but it does mention other Police standing by and waiting for Armed Response.

I don't blame the Plod for standing by and waiting for Armed Police....as Sticks don't give one much advantage over two guys hacking folks up with Machetes, Meat Cleavers or whatever.

Guns on the other hand work really good against such weapons.

Big Question for you who embrace "Unarmed Police"....would it have saved a life in this case if the Plod had been armed with guns?

[diginagain]

....would it have saved a life in this case if the Plod had been armed with guns?How, exactly?

[Squirrel 41]

RIP. Appalling news.

S41

[pr00ne]

SASless,

"Big Question for you who embrace "Unarmed Police"....would it have saved a life in this case if the Plod had been armed with guns?"

Absolutely not.

A hundred thousand armed Police on the streets of London would not have save that life. If, as appears to have happened, it was a targeted running down of this individual with a car followed by an attempt to behead him and be filmed doing it, armed Police would have made not one jot of difference.

The alleged murderers made no attempt to kill or even harm anyone else after the event, they were filmed talking about it by numerous passers by on their mobile phone cameras, hence the widely shown footage of the seemingly calm and articulate guy of Caribbean appearance and a South London accent making the apology and political statement.

What there WAS today was yet another display of bravery and fortitude by the people of this City. By the folk who were remonstrating with the two murderers, the folk who tried to aid, comfort and shield the victim, who I sincerely hope was either killed or rendered unconscious in the collision with the car before the attempted beheading.

We do NOT need or want every Police Officer on the streets of LOndon to be armed. There is no need or justification for it. Our rates of gun crime are incredibly low and mainly concern feuding between drug dealers and rival gangs.

[bosnich71]

Meanwhile in Sweden the followers of the R.of P. are rioting for the third night running while the Daily mail is contributing to the debate with a story about the E.D.L.

[SASless]

Plenty of Knife violence it seems.

We were warned that these kinds of attacks would become the method of choice for the Islamic Terrorists.....one or two individuals operating independently on random targets. Guess there was some good intelligence analysis in that regard.

A terrible tragedy for sure.....makes one wonder why the gallant folk engaged the killers in conversation....as giving these scumbags an audience is part of what they seek when doing these murderous acts.

Shame they lived after being shot by the Police.

[pr00ne]

SASless,

Well, if knife crime was so prevalent then a serious stabbing incident would not still be headline news, which it is. Even one of course would be one too many, but we have to keep this in context, it IS a City of eight and a half million people after all. In the same vein we have also only had two terrorist related attacks in London in eight years.

A terrible tragedy is most certainly is, but we have to face the fact that this is all linked to western foreign policy over the last decade, an unmitigated and complete disaster.

As to the folk engaging the guy on camera, you really have to look at in context. A sudden and unexpected squealing of tyres and brakes and a crash as a car hits a pedestrian and then a road sign, followed by two guys leaping out of the car and dragging another guy out from under the car and into the middle of the road and seeming to be helping him. It must have come as a shock to realise just what they were actually doing, or trying to do. As someone said on here, you see what you think is happening, and what makes sense under the circumstances, rather than the incredibly unlikely and incredible reality of what actually is happening.

I am glad that they are both still alive. They can be questioned, others involved held to account, their friendships and relationships investigated, and then tried and jailed for a LONG time. We've had enough killing for now.

[SASless]

Gee....imprisoned for a LONG time.....seems a just punishment for the crimes they committed now don't it!

The Liberal sense of justice just slays me it does.:ugh:

[pr00ne]

SASless.

"The Liberal sense of justice just slays me it does."

...and the total hypocrisy of killing someone because they killed someone doesn't?

[212man]

Big Question for you who embrace "Unarmed Police"....would it have saved a life in this case if the Plod had been armed with guns?

Given the witness accounts, clearly not! Unless he'd been right on the scene standing with it drawn as the attackers got out of the car and made for the victim - and assumed they were going to attack him, and not assist him (which is what the witnesses assumed until too late!)

Having seen the video of the attacker talking to the camera, I'm bemused as to where exactly they are from? He talks about women witnessing atrocities in "our country" but is clearly of African descent but sounds more like a Brit than an African immigrant. So which country is he talking about??? (not that it matters for the poor victim :ugh:)

[500N]

Why does no video exist of the police shooting them ?

Plenty of other video of the situation.

Any ideas ?

[SASless]

Pr00ne....the Liberal mind must be a very confused thing if you cannot grasp the absolute finality of dropping those two evil bastards in their tracks.....and that fact having done so....there is absolutely no chance they shall ever be able to harm another human being. We do put down Rabid Dogs do we not....what is the difference with these two?

Perhaps you see them as vicitms of an unfair World....they did not get their morning porridge every day or they suffered some slight by someone with a pale skin in their past or something.....but they forfeited any claim to humane treatment by the sheer evil of their actions.

We will never agree so no need arguing.

Just as I find their crimes evil....I find the Liberal mindset over Murder to just as disgusting. Liberals are all for killing so long as it is Abortion....where the innocent are murdered but they get their noses out of joint if the Guilty are killed.

That paradox just defies explanation.

[pr00ne]

SASless,

Oh dear, a pro-life pro-capital punisher. No wonder you are confused!

I regard all killing as evil.

These two were stopped by the Police, job done. Now we can find out a lot more about them, like why they did it and who assisted them. Pretty hard to do that with a corpse.

[Roadster280]

Proone,

I fully agree that capturing the murderers alive is a good thing. They can be interrogated, waterboarded, whatever, to extract any useful information.

However, once that process is complete, I see no reason why they deserve to live. I know the law as it stands offers a right to life, but I would strongly advocate a return to capital punishment for this kind of crime.

This kind of behaviour in the early 60s would have seen them swing. What is so fundamentally different now? Nothing, so far as I can see.

[West Coast]

Yet pr-oone it ended only when a trained, armed officer stepped in and shot them. None of this "stop or I'll yell stop again" crap

[BEagle]

.....the seemingly calm and articulate guy of Caribbean appearance and a South London accent making the apology and political statement.

What fluffy liberal socialist nonsense. You mean a wild-eyed, knife-wielding black man babbling sickening terrorist propaganda, surely, Comrade pr00ne?

Although these murderers quite clearly deserve the death penalty, lily-livered weak judiciary won't even give them a smack on the wrist. They'll probably end up in some prison crawling with their 'bruvs' who they will attempt to radicalise.

At least your fellow-travellers in Mother Russia have suitable prisons for scum such as these, Comrade - Black Dolphin, Sol-Iletsk, for example. From which the only way out is up the crematorium chimney.

This kind of behaviour in the early 60s would have seen them swing.

Any hint of such behaviour in those days would have been eradicated by the gangs who ruled London back then. I could park my car, unlocked, in the East End knowing it would be safe, because The Twins didn't allow casual crime on their patch.....

Whereas nowadays, London is a wretched place barely recognisable as an English city.

[Lima Juliet]

I regard all killing as evil.

Seeing as 99% of nature involves living organisms living in stress killing each other in sometimes the most barbaric ways - does that make nature evil? :}

If you have to take a life to save a life, how about that? Evil? I don't think so...:hmm:

LJ

[PacWest]

Take it from the source, Sassless; as in:

A terrible tragedy is most certainly is, but we have to face the fact that this is all linked to western foreign policy over the last decade, an unmitigated and complete disaster.

What is an unmitigated disaster is that the foregoing pompous blather is what is now acceptable by the majority of Brits in their smug self absorbtion all the while their little island empire is slowly but surely being destroyed by the insidious culture of Islam.
`

[Dysonsphere]

Well we now have the unpleasant fact to face that we will be paying for them to live in comfort for the rest of there miserable lives, lets just let shoot them after the trial I'm sure there will be no shortage of squaddies ready to do the deed.

[parabellum]

when they should actually be showing the footage of the Lady Shooter taking
them down.



and

Why does no video exist of the police shooting them ?

absolutely NOT - otherwise the relatives, friends and sympathisers of the scum would be coming after her. Let us hope no dim wit names her either.

[Roland Pulfrew]

...and the total hypocrisy of killing someone because they killed someone doesn't?

Oh good, pr00ne's back. :rolleyes: In answer to your question above: no it doesn't. These guys did it, they don't deny it, there is video of them doing it. We will now waste £10s of thousands of pounds saving their lives. We will then waste significant amounts of money prosecuting them, whilst liberal bleeding heart lawyers will make huge amounts of money pointlessly try to defend the indefensible and arguing over points of law. (Any lawyer that even considers taking the defence is part of the problem). And then we will waste untold amounts of money keeping them in jail. No doubt they will then be released early because life no longer means life.

[Pontius Navigator]

I would even start to worry that jails were not safe for honest white criminals.

I see both sides of the argument but quite agree that instead of swift justice this will drag on for years when really what is there to argue about?

The question was asked about the armed guards in the barracks. I think ROE would permit them to assist except that they could have been inhibited by the presence of civilians.

What is to be done? No idea. Someone, and I can't remember where, predicted a civil war in this country. This is a tragic step in that direction. Before someone says it was two attackers and one victim, so too did WW1 start.

[Trim Stab]

This witness account is worth reading:

Woolwich attack: interview with eyewitness Ingrid Loyau-Kennett | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account)

[Gerontocrat]

Beagle: The same thing up to the mid-70s. I once asked a fellow drinker in my local in Mile End (another regular was one Mrs Davis, w/o The George Who Was Innocent, OK!) how come I was able to leave my soft-top Triumph Herald in the street and not have to worry about.
"Well, the thing is, if people don't know who you 're friendly wiv, they'll leave well alone. In any case, all the villains round here goes up West of an evening."
Self-regulation worked well and as long as not too many serious lines were crossed, the local constabulary had a relatively peaceful life, I'm told.

[Courtney Mil]

Ah good, the death sentence debate. Anyone want to bet that a reasoned debate here will result in at least one person changing their stance on that issue?

Anyway, 'Death's to good for them.'

[Not_a_boffin]

It's not very often I agree with Pr00ne, but

A hundred thousand armed Police on the streets of London would not have save that life. If, as appears to have happened, it was a targeted running down of this individual with a car followed by an attempt to behead him and be filmed doing it, armed Police would have made not one jot of difference.

is spot on. However, normal service is resumed shortly thereafter with

A terrible tragedy is most certainly is, but we have to face the fact that this is all linked to western foreign policy over the last decade, an unmitigated and complete disaster

which is b0ll0cks.

Any attempt to rationalise what AQ/T and their acolytes have done by linking incidents like this to Telic or Herrick needs to be absolutely clear that we are fighting a political ideology hiding behind a religion. An ideology that is unremittingly hostile to liberal western beliefs and attitudes and one which would still be committing atrocities against western interests and people whether we had troops deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali or anywhere else. There are sufficient examples of terrorist acts by these groups that easily predate 9/11 (which itself predates Herrick & Telic in case anyone needed reminding).

The collective "we" are in an ideological war (not with a religion) whether we like it or not. Hoping it will go away is unfortunately not an option. The victim of yesterdays atrocity was another casualty of that war.

The way to win this war is to robustly challenge the arguments and tenets of that ideology with our own in every forum and arena and that means treating the perpetrators as the criminals they are and not making excuses for sensitivities of others in some sort of political relativism argument. That includes sentencing according to the law of the land if found guilty by due process, however distasteful we may find the experience. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if put in an ordinary jail if convicted of the crime charged, they'll probably have a far more unpleasant time over a sustained period.

Most importantly, RIP Tommy. We must make sure that his family's loss is not in vain.

[Trackmaster]

One would hope that a million silent, determined people fill the streets on the day of this young man's funeral. Controlled people power will clean out this nest of rats.

[Martin the Martian]

I believe they made to attack the armed officers, presumably seeking martyrdom. As a result both have been injured, will be questioned and tried. I cannot see any other result than a very long, quite probably indefinite prison sentence. Not quite so glorious as martyrdom. Killing them is exactly what they want to make themselves appear even more heroic in their eyes.

And can we put the religion-bashing to one side please? I'm a practicing Christian, have known and worked with Muslims, Jews and others of different faiths quite peacefully for many years, and while I agree that religion is used as the reason for many a conflict, it is also the reason why so many people have done so much good with their lives.

Besides, I'd much rather believe in God than Richard Dawkins.

[Heathrow Harry]

what astonishes me is the bravery of the general public - instead of running screaming in all directions they actually try to help the victim and argue with the killers - men clearly demented, covered in blood and waving a bloody great cleaver.................

these people are a lot braver than I am

[tonker]

Me too, 3 very brave women.

[Courtney Mil]

Update from BBC News:



Police have raided two addresses.

Officers forced their way into a flat and shattered the door frame as they
raided an address believed to belong to one of the attackers on a Greenwich housing estate at 05:30 BST.

Neighbours said two sisters in their 30s, an older woman and a teenaged boy were taken away in a police van.


An address in Saxilby, Lincolnshire is also being searched in connection with the attack


Also, the murdered man has been confirmed as a soldier.

[OutlawPete]

Hearts go out to the family of this soldier and his brothers in arms. How incredibly sad for them.

Really it beggars belief. I hope to hell these two homicidal maniacs get what they deserve.

[RedhillPhil]

Just had a telephone message from number one son who's in the Met. He and everyone else are on twelve hour shifts for the foreseable future. Pity they're paid in lieu and not ackers, they'd be earning a fortune.

[CoffmanStarter]

Incredulous that this has happened in England ... we have certainly reached rock bottom in terms of our social fabric being in tatters, lack of respect for others and no common decency.

I have no personal solutions apart from holding a firm blief that we are far too lenient with wrong doers and people who threaten our way of life.

My thoughts are with the young soldier, his family and colleagues.

RIP young man ...

Coff.

[November4]

According to a twit feed (https://twitter.com/BOYADEE)

The first guy goes for the female fed with the machete and she not even ramping she took man out like robocop never seen nutn like it

Then the next breda try buss off the rusty 45 and it just backfires and blows mans finger clean off... Feds didnt pet to just take him out!!

Looks like Police shot one and the other tried to shoot but the pistol blew up injuring himself.

[parabellum]

I hope the soldiers family agree to a funeral with full military honours and the public have a chance to show their support for his family and comrades in arms.

[Courtney Mil]

Your handgun blowing up in your hand and taking your fingers off is just God's way of telling you that he hates you. God IS great!

[HalloweenJack]

something is bugging me about the events in Woolwich - it took armed police 20 minutes to arrive and yet the 2 blokes who killed the soldier , were hanging around giving facebook interviews and didn't try to escape.

just walking away and catching a bus would have seen them long gone!

[parabellum]

Your handgun blowing up in your hand and taking your fingers off is just
God's way of telling you that he hates you. God IS great!


and may well mean that they are self motivated and not part of a more sophisticated organisation with access to weapons that work.

[DADDY-OH!]

I have an idea in the form of a step-by-step guide of dealing with these 'Terrorists' that I'd like to throw to the audience.

1) Let these monsters get better in hospital.

2) Make them stand trial by a jury of 12 members of the public.

3) When found guilty let sentence be passed...

... Now this next bit is the change I propose, based on that I am more ProLife than Pro Capital Punishment, yet Anti-Neither & can see the for's & against's in both sides of both arguments...

4) Take them to a place where they can be physically paralysed, and I mean spinal chord severed or placed in a drug induced conscious paralysis, so they can't speak or move but are fully awake, aware of what's going on around them, yet powerless to do ANYTHING about it.

Effectively it's depriving of a life NOT taking a life. If they think their actions will gain them entry into paradise where their 72 virgins await them, then they'll have to wait a good few years for them. In the mean time, they can spend their remaining years in a Prison Hospital.

And what will the benefits/ costs be?

1) They will be a low security risk while paralysed.

2) They will be unable to try 'Hunger Striking' to bait the 'Political Sympathy' card.

3) They will be unable to spread their bile, poison & rhetoric, radicalising possible converts.

4) It denies them the 'Martyrdom' kudos.

5) It gives a real sense of real justice to tackle a real threat to & problem for us all.

It will be an effective deterent.

Discuss.

[Melchett01]

Someone, and I can't remember where, predicted a civil war in this country

Other than Enoch Powell? No doubt we will see a resurgence in theorizing on the 'clash of civilizations' concept. It's been a while since I studied it, would be interested to revisit it and see how it pans out when said 'clash' occurs between elements within a civilization.

[just another jocky]

I wish I had the intelligence to put it as succinctly as this, so well said NaB:


It's not very often I agree with Pr00ne, but

Quote:
A hundred thousand armed Police on the streets of London would not have save that life. If, as appears to have happened, it was a targeted running down of this individual with a car followed by an attempt to behead him and be filmed doing it, armed Police would have made not one jot of difference.
is spot on. However, normal service is resumed shortly thereafter with

Quote:
A terrible tragedy is most certainly is, but we have to face the fact that this is all linked to western foreign policy over the last decade, an unmitigated and complete disaster
which is b0ll0cks.

Any attempt to rationalise what AQ/T and their acolytes have done by linking incidents like this to Telic or Herrick needs to be absolutely clear that we are fighting a political ideology hiding behind a religion. An ideology that is unremittingly hostile to liberal western beliefs and attitudes and one which would still be committing atrocities against western interests and people whether we had troops deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali or anywhere else. There are sufficient examples of terrorist acts by these groups that easily predate 9/11 (which itself predates Herrick & Telic in case anyone needed reminding).

The collective "we" are in an ideological war (not with a religion) whether we like it or not. Hoping it will go away is unfortunately not an option. The victim of yesterdays atrocity was another casualty of that war.

The way to win this war is to robustly challenge the arguments and tenets of that ideology with our own in every forum and arena and that means treating the perpetrators as the criminals they are and not making excuses for sensitivities of others in some sort of political relativism argument. That includes sentencing according to the law of the land if found guilty by due process, however distasteful we may find the experience. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if put in an ordinary jail if convicted of the crime charged, they'll probably have a far more unpleasant time over a sustained period.

Most importantly, RIP Tommy. We must make sure that his family's loss is not in vain.

RiP young man, thoughts and condolences to family, friends and colleagues.

[edwardspannerhands]

Throw them in Prison - I seem to recall Colchester has a "prison"!!

[Tinribs]

We are all so sorry for the squaddie and his family and that is right. He must be the centre of our symathy but not the only thought.

We have an argument with some extreme adherents of the Muslim faith who hate eveyone else and consider their behaviour a reasonable response to our own.

We must keep our own society values and show the vast majority of muslim people that we are not the source of their troubles or the cause of their distress. We cannot do this by responding to the disgusting behaviour of the few with hatred of them all

Having gently quizzed some seeming Muzlim faithfull today they seem as angry about their faith being abused as we would be. They also realise this will harm the status of the faithfull in the eyes of the remainder of the population.

[Jumping_Jack]

Having gently quizzed some seeming Muzlim faithfull today they seem as angry about their faith being abused as we would be. They also realise this will harm the status of the faithfull in the eyes of the remainder of the population.

Maybe they should do more about the nutters in their midst then; they know who they are but religious loyalty still stops them reporting it.

[SASless]

We must keep our own society values and show the vast majority of muslim people that we are not the source of their troubles or the cause of their distress. We cannot do this by responding to the disgusting behaviour of the few with hatred of them all.

When "They" assimilate OUR societal values and accept "WE" are not the source of their troubles or the cause of their distress....perhaps I might listen to you.

We must respond to the disgusting behaviour of ALL that provide the environment that fosters and allows such acts to occur.

When I see Tens of Thousands of Muslims marching with their Non-Muslim fellows protesting such heinous acts and thinking....then perhaps you might have a point....but not until then!

[Wander00]

JJ - not unlike the attitude of some Catholic priests refusing to condemn IRA atrocities.

[Widger]

From my perspective, these two were nothing more than a nutter with major Psychaitric problems and his sidekick, who have been brainwashed by others for political purposes. If he was a true Jihadist, he would not have mixed up quotes from the bible with the Koran.

Do not give these people the religious label, that is what they want, to stir up trouble and promote disciontent among different communities. They are nothing more than ignorant ****** nutters and should be treated as such.

[Herod]

SASless. I have to agree with what you are saying. The majority of Muslims don't want this sort of thing, BUT: until we see thousands marching in the street with banners like "Not in my name" or "This is NOT the will of Allah" there will still be the sneaking feeling that the majority are still tacitly supporting it.

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

Oh dear, is that the best you can do? Comrade? Mother Russia? From you I expected at least a half decent rational argument, as opposed to this spouting forth of half baked cliches and urban myth.

The guy didn’t seem to be particularly ‘wide eyed,’ especially when you consider what he had just done, and he WAS reasonably articulate. Yes, I DO think that what he was saying was naive rubbish, wrong, ignorant and misguided.

You don’t like London, OK, I get that. I do, in fact I love it, I live here and I work here and my experience of it in 2013 is very similar to yours in the 60’s.

That hoary old myth of “open unlocked doors: is just that, a hoary old myth. I have a very close friend who chooses to live in a rather deprived inner city part of East London. The neighbourhood is extremely cosmopolitain, next door is a Somalia family, a hard working couple and three kids, nice people. Across the way is a Jamaican family who run a car breaking business and are extremely loud and tend to party all night. On the other side is a typical old East End resident, almost a replica of Alf Garnet, lived here for decades, only they all get on, they all talk, they leave keys with each other when they go away, a real community.

My friend is a little absent minded, almost dippy you might say. I have lost count of the number of times she has left her car unlocked over night, her house front door ajar, keys sometimes in the lock (for the house AND the car parked just feet away!) She has never been broken into or had her car taken. I frequently park my rather expensive car there too, never had it even touched. The Jamaican family are always threatening to dismantle it and sell it for spares overnight...

The only crime my friend has experienced in the 15 years I have known her was when, in comfortable affluent North Oxford, she had her Lap Top stolen. My only car crime? Key scratch right down the car in the very same North Oxford affluent suburb.

Rose tinted glasses eh?

In the 60’s 22 Police Officers were killed on duty in the UK, in the 90’s it was 23, in the first decade of the 2000’s it was 19. Rising crime eh?

As for gun crime; in the 60’s 8 Police Officers were shot and killed, in the 90’s 4, and in the first decade of the 2000’s it was 3.

Ah those old crime free 60’s eh?


Back on topic.


Leon Jabachjabicz,

Nature is nature, as are humans. 99.9999999% of humans NEVER kill.



West Coast,

I have absolutely NO problem with armed Police, nor with the actions of the officers who shot these two on the day. I just don’t see the need to routinely arm ALL Police.

PacWest, Not a boffin,

Western Governments consistently attacking Muslim countries and regimes is the perceived rational behind this nonsense. Regime change, invasion, tens of thousands of civilians killed, assassinations from 15,000 feet in Pakistan, countless dead in ‘collateral’ damage. THAT is the perception of the average Muslim, not just the fanatics, and is THE reason that all of this is happening.



DADDY-OH!,

You are just as sick as those two.

Coffman Starter,

We have NOT reached rock bottom and the fabric of our society is NOT in tatters. Two people do not define a nation, there were many examples of fine and laudable behaviour yesterday on the streets of Woolwich, and you are distorting reality if you concentrate on one and not the other.

[glad rag]

I believe they made to attack the armed officers, presumably seeking martyrdom. As a result both have been injured, will be questioned and tried. I cannot see any other result than a very long, quite probably indefinite prison sentence. Not quite so glorious as martyrdom. Killing them is exactly what they want to make themselves appear even more heroic in their eyes.

And can we put the religion-bashing to one side please? I'm a practicing Christian, have known and worked with Muslims, Jews and others of different faiths quite peacefully for many years, and while I agree that religion is used as the reason for many a conflict, it is also the reason why so many people have done so much good with their lives.

Besides, I'd much rather believe in God than Richard Dawkins.

Whilst quietly sidestepping the somewhat massive point that RELIGION

IS

the root of these attacks.



just putting it out there.......:ok:

[SASless]

Widger.....isn't there something like 13 chapters in the Koran that are the same as the Old Testament?

Fuzzy recall about that....but I do know there are some commonality in parts of the Bible and the Koran.

Of course that doesn't explain why the Islamic Fundamentalists are so prone to murder folks in the name of their God....quite unlike say....a Jehovah's Witness group.

[pr00ne]

SASless,

I don’t recall seeing “tens of thousands of Americans marching protesting such heinous acts” when the IRA was heavily funded and armed by US money and interests as it was busily killing and maiming UK citizens in the very same streets as yesterdays murder, as well as blowing the legs off teenage girls in Birmingham, blowing eight year old boys to bits in Warrington and scattering the limbs of Bandsmen and horses across Hyde Park.

As to religion, well, Christians were doing much the same thing in the 1500’s, even in our own country. We were very prone to killing in quiet barbaric manner, any non Christians, or even those of a different Christian faith, depending on who was on the throne at the time in England.

As we had our enlightenment and the age of reason, and isn’t Islam about 700 years younger than Christianity....?

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, it was not Enoch but someone in the past month of so. I really can't remember who but it was not your man in the pub.

Regarding punishment, I harboured an idea of exile to a remote uninhabited island with materials and that was that. As it happens I then read a book The Penal Colony which was exactly that. It was populated entirely with convicted murderers sentencted to life. Unlike Alacratz there were no warders; the convicts had to manage their own affairs which included building shelters, making clothing etc etc.

Unlike Papillion this fictional island was in the Bristol Channel.

[Robert Cooper]

Every Muslim country is either in a state of oppression or a state of war. Muslims are killing thousands all the way from Pakistan to African. Does any European country that populates its cities and towns with Muslims really believe that it can escape the inevitable trajectory of this cultural history?
The only thing standing between the United Kingdom and Somalia, Pakistan, Syria and a dozen other charming places like these is another two decades of immigration. And long before the irreversible demographic turning point is reached, life in Britain will be flavored with regional events like public beheadings, honor killings and religious bombings.

Bob C

[woptb]

Pr00ne, some clear/reasoned thinking - thanks.

[woptb]

Every Muslim country is either in a state of oppression or a state of war. Muslims are killing thousands all the way from Pakistan to African. Does any European country that populates its cities and towns with Muslims really believe that it can escape the inevitable trajectory of this cultural history?
The only thing standing between the United Kingdom and Somalia, Pakistan, Syria and a dozen other charming places like these is another two decades of immigration. And long before the irreversible demographic turning point is reached, life in Britain will be flavored with regional events like public beheadings, honor killings and religious bombings.

Bob C

Do you write for the Mail ?

[Not_a_boffin]

As to religion, well, Christians were doing much the same thing in the 1500’s, even in our own country. We were very prone to killing in quiet barbaric manner, any non Christians, or even those of a different Christian faith, depending on who was on the throne at the time in England.

As we had our enlightenment and the age of reason, and isn’t Islam about 700 years younger than Christianity....?

This is precisely the sort of relativism and excusal that is taking place, instead of a simple restatement of our collective belief in the principles of western liberal society, followed by a condemnation of the atrocity and a rebuttal of the arguments of the extremists.

If we believe in our society, stand up and say why and counter the statements of the extremists with facts. Do not try to excuse or "understand" the extremist viewpoint. It is wrong and unacceptable in our society, which makes them criminals, simple as.

But for the moment, leave it. Drummer Rigby was a father. His wife, child and family do not deserve a slanging match.

[Herod]

SASless. The Qu'ran acknowledges the Bible. In fact, Islam recognises five prophets. Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Both the Torah and the Bible are considered the word of God, but in an imperfect form. Jews and Christians are "people of the book", and as such given special status. The jihadi is following a gross corruption of the teaching.

[pr00ne]

Robert Cooper,

Oh please! Stop with the alarmist claptrap eh?

The UK has had Muslims for generations, they are a tiny minority of our population, less than three percent. The UK is still overwhelmingly Christian, over 72%, with the next largest percentage being Atheist or Agnostic at 15% and then no other religions even close to one percent.

Our Muslim population is overwhelmingly peaceful and law abiding, we have NO Shia Law no go areas despite what some may claim. That tiny percentage of the population are raising children, keeping down jobs and just trying to live their lives like the rest of us.


Not a boffin,

To a certain extent I agree with you, we have a set of laws in this country and if you break them you are tried accordingly. What happened yesterday was criminal, simple as that.

As to relativism and excusal behaviour, well, I'm an Atheist so I don't understand what ANY of you are arguing about!

We don't BELIEVE in our society, we LIVE our society, that's the best way to combat ANY extremism. It's no good merely being outraged and condemning things, you have to make an attempt to understand why they happen and what motivates such events. That does not mean that you are excusing it.

[El Grifo]

Every Muslim country is either in a state of oppression or a state of war. Muslims are killing thousands all the way from Pakistan to African. Does any European country that populates its cities and towns with Muslims really believe that it can escape the inevitable trajectory of this cultural history?
The only thing standing between the United Kingdom and Somalia, Pakistan, Syria and a dozen other charming places like these is another two decades of immigration. And long before the irreversible demographic turning point is reached, life in Britain will be flavored with regional events like public beheadings, honor killings and religious bombings.

Bob C

Dont know if he writes for the Mail woptb, but he certainly writes for me´.

That´ll do me Bob :ok:

[Milo Minderbinder]

"The UK has had Muslims for generations, they are a tiny minority of our population, less than three percent."

Wrong
At the last census, 5%
And of those under 25, 10%

[Stuffy]

Two psychopaths of low ,impressionable intelligence ,were chosen. Probably by clever Islamist/Jihadists.

Then sent out to do a terrible deed.

Unfortunately, under interrogation. They may well not reveal those behind them.

This was a calculated act. By persons unknown, using people who should be in a mental institution.

It is the villains behind the psychpaths that worry me more than the psychopaths.

[Ivor Fynn]

And me Bob. :D:D:D

Ivor

[pontifex]

Pontius,

I think Rockall would fit the bill.

[VinRouge]

Stuffy, prime candidates for waterboarding.their guilt cannot be denied and they have information that has to be gotten.

[pr00ne]

Milo Minderbinder,

The 2011 Census was for England and Wales, I suspect that if you include the rest of the UK it will be back around the three percent mark. But what does it matter? 2,5, 6, 10, 30%? It is just a religious faith, it does not condone what happened yesterday and neither do 99.99% of it's adherents here in the country as a whole.

[SASless]

Pr00ne,

Who seems to be the most common perpetrator of violence against the British People of late?

Are you not alarmed that there are folks within your society that will drive a car slap over a fellow walking along then proceed to hack his head off....all because he was a Soldier?

How many Muslims like that popped up in your British History over the Years?

Is this a new thing we see happening?

If it is....what provoked that happening?

Who you going to blame for this horrible Crime.....the Victim?

Who do you blame for the Bombings a while back on the Underground and Bus?

Someone surely must bear guilt for all these attacks....who is it?



As to the marching against the IRA....what happens in the UK is a long way away from Boston. If they had been bombing us here we would have been far more interested in all of that. How many of those "Americans" were displaced Irishmen or the descendants of displaced Irishmen who had reasons to support the IRA (no matter how illegal it was).

Blaming the all Americans for support to the IRA by a very small few....is exactly the same as blaming all Muslims for what happened in Woolwich is it not? That is what you are preaching today when you defend all Muslims over the acts of a few.

Go beat that drum somewhere else as you are all too predictable when it comes to bleating about the IRA and their support in the past by a few folks in Boston.

Do you hold the same feelings towards the Libyans and Ghadaffi? After all he provided Ship loads of Arms and Explosives to the IRA.

This is not about the IRA and Catholicism....it is all about Islamic Terrorism.

Well, last time I checked anyway.

[Gemini Twin]

Same old cr$p, century after century. Always blaming or justifying what humans do to each because of religious, political, racial or national differences. We are all responsible for these conflicts because of our particular bigotry passed on to use by people who train us or set examples. There has never been a child born anywhere with bigotry already embedded it the day old brain it has to be TAUGHT. The follow are the lyrics from a song from South Pacific:

You've got to be taught to hate and fear,
You've got to be taught from year to year,
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

Christians do it, Muslims do it, communists do it, capitalists do it and the peasants of the world lap it up, wave the flags at the Olympic games or World Cup chanting we're number 1 and blindly go along for the ride and the constant cycle of action, revenge, action, revenge continues.

[Lima Juliet]

Proone

Nature is nature, as are humans. 99.9999999% of humans NEVER kill

What b0ll0cks! Humans kill lots of things from bacteria to birds/squirrels in their car. The majority kill spiders, flies, mosquitos and other pests.

So if killing is so evil, then that makes us all (unless you're some kind of Buddhist Monk) the most evil devil children that ever lived, :ugh:

Grow some, killing is a part of life on this planet earth and not some Utopian fairy land.

LJ

[Roland Pulfrew]

SAS

There is little point trying to debate with pr00ne. He will not accept that he and his kind are part of the problem. As a socialist he believes the utter claptrap that mass immigration is a good thing. He will not accept that there are adherents to Islam that want to extend the Greater Caliphate across Europe. He is one of the deniers; they deny that anything is wrong, despite mounting evidence to the contrary. He will try and use statistics to prove his argument and twist them when called into question - example: the UK census data above. They will not face reality because it does not fit their socialist agenda. He tells is stories of East End harmony of "multiculturalism", without telling you of the areas where you watch your back, lock doors with multiple locks and steel gates. And yes, I have lived in the East End and there were areas that I would not go after dark. Personally I think Islam is incompatible with western culture and until Muslims start reporting the terrorists, people smugglers, pedophile gangs within their communities then I will not be persuaded otherwise.

LJ - spot on.

[glad rag]

"We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day."

Michael Adebolajo
Woolwich
May, 2013.

[Thelma Viaduct]

As an ex squaddie, I'm devastated for the loss of the young Soldier and feel extremely sorry for his family. The media coverage and how it happened is not how anyone should leave this planet. The scum who did this are the lowest form of life imaginable.

What also sickens me is that 'people' like Cameron, Straw and that idiot Mayor you wouldn't follow through a revolving door, have said that it's 100% not down to foreign Policy.

Hundreds of Soldiers would still be alive today were it not for the lies and deceit told with regards to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which are ultimately for oil, natural resources and strategic locations. Any pretence that's it's to eradicate 'terrorists', search for WMD, bring democracy is a lie, pure and simple. Why the 'great' British public swallow the lies is beyond me. Thousands of people are left without Dads, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Brothers, Sisters it's sickening, all to line someone else's pocket.

Politicians don't care about their own people, let alone trying to 'nation build' in places where we have no concern. The people that sanctioned these wars need to be held accountable and dealt with in the same way that the 2 'muslim terrorists' will. So please step forward Blair, Hoon, Straw et al - Cause and Effect

But more importantly today, RIP Lee Rigby, you will not be forgotten.

[SRENNAPS]

"Drummer Rigby, 25, from Manchester, leaves behind a two-year-old son."

RIP mate, you pay the price for a country trying to live in a free and democratic society. That freedom and democracy is slowly but surely being eroded away by people who live in our free and democratic society, but actually originate from a country that does not have a free and democratic society. So sad the world is still like this in the year 2013!

[The B Word]

Hundreds of Soldiers would still be alive today were it not for the lies and deceit told with regards to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which are ultimately for oil, natural resources and strategic locations. Any pretence that's it's to eradicate 'terrorists', search for WMD, bring democracy is a lie, pure and simple.

To quote another on this thread - b0ll0cks! You've been reading too many conspiracy theories old boy. If only politicians were that clever!

I agree natural resources are part of it, but not all of it.

The B Word

[Thelma Viaduct]

To quote another on this thread - b0ll0cks!

Have a bit of respect and take it PM, I'll deal with you in there.

[Pontius Navigator]

"The UK has had Muslims for generations, they are a tiny minority of our population, less than three percent."

Wrong
At the last census, 5%
And of those under 25, 10%

And like air superiority, in some areas they have local superiority.

[DADDY-OH!]

Pr00ne... Pr00ne... Pru00ne

You may think I'm <quote> "... just as sick as the others..." <unquote>.

However, as you seem to be a beacon (like a dog's lipstick), of Liberalism against a tide of (perceived) fascism, maybe you should "switch to receive & not transmit", putting the time to good use & reviewing your appeasement of the growingly unchecked tide of IslamoFascism & wake up to the fact that it is YOU, the very Liberal & even more out-of-touch, reality dodging politariat & judiciary that fuels their misguidance & infers that our Liberal 'turn the other cheek' for weakness & therefore ripe & easy target for manipulation to conversion by terrorisation.

I pray the '00' tag in your username has no military inference.

Ready when you are but I bet you'll hate discovering that you're in the wrong on this one.

[SASless]

Pr00ne has never admitted being wrong on any issue that I am aware of....and as rightly pointed out by several....engaging in discourse with him is a Fool's Errand as he just isn't going to listen to anything that is said if it does not fit his warped view of reality. He like so many are quite comfy in their views that anything to the contrary must be rejected immediately as only "they" grasp the Truth as revealed to them by those who pour the Kool Aid for them.

Potent stuff that Kool Aid!

One deep swallow and you just cannot resist coming back for Seconds!

[woptb]

Personally I think Islam is incompatible with western culture


Mo Farah caps Great Britain's remarkable dramatic 10,000m crown daughter and pregnant wife - YouTube

[DADDY-OH!]

Woptb

Maybe if you'd read the Koran then you'd understand the statement.

[smujsmith]

Stuff proone, Pious pilot has it absolutely correct. There can be no, absolutely no justification of what happened in Woolwich. Anyone who respects human life can have no argument with this. Now, stop dithering, make a decision of where you stand and say it. Me I believe this crime is something we will keep hearing about until the PC brigade lose their grip on the political establishment and British standards are reestablished. I'm already in deep guano here, but I'm no anti anything, I just pray that our country can overcome this challenge.

PS. Mo Farrah is a Somali immigrant. He can wrap himself in any flag he wants as far as I'm concerned, he is no more British than the Iraqi interpreters that have had to really fight for recognition.

[Finningley Boy]

I frequently park my rather expensive car there too, never had it even touched. The Jamaican family are always threatening to dismantle it and sell it for spares overnight...

You're lucky pr00ne, a rich bourgeois capitalist like you wouldn't normally get away with flaunting his/her affluence like that. Then again you're probably regarded as being on side given your left leaning credentials.

FB

[woptb]

PS. Mo Farrah is a Somali immigrant. He can wrap himself in any flag he wants as far as I'm concerned, he is no more British than the Iraqi interpreters that have had to really fight for recognition

What's your point ? He' British,proud to be British & just happens to be a muslim & originally from another land.
I served in the military & will have no truck with anyone who commits or would attempt to commit such vile actions as those in Woolwich.I would have been happy as larry if the police had arrived 15 minutes earlier & shot them dead before they killed this lad.
To conflate these sub-human gimps actions with the majority of Muslims &/or immigrants is just illogical.To demonise people in this way is not only wrong, it's dangerous.
Simplistically put, someone punched you in the face for no reason, they're bastards,if they happen to be black,white,asian,catholic or zoroastrian,they are still just a bastard.

[Easy Street]

If there is any comfort to be taken away from this barbaric episode, just consider that in 2001, terrorists hijacked four airliners and killed nearly 3,000 people in less than an hour. In 2013 they knocked down an off-duty soldier with a car and set about him with kitchen knives. It's hardly the act of a movement in rude health.

RIP Drummer Rigby.

[TT2]

Well said Coff. Totally in agreement.
The highest crime rate that I have ever experienced in my life was in the supposed 'civilised' Oxford. Absolutely appalling.

My then wife (A foreigner) really had her illusions of Blighty dented. In one year, burgled twice, car stolen, her phone snatched at a bus stop. And so on.

Talk to people down the pub and all you get is a shrug of the shoulders, seems to be standard practice there.

I once lived in Dalston in the mid 80's, it had a bit of a bad rep then. I found it to be a real community and felt perfectly safe. The old timers were kept an eye on and the wannabees were told to wind their necks in. Worked out fine and a real racial mixing pot.

The 60's and streets safe to walk in? What bollocks. A romantic view of the Krays being gents who loved their Mum? They were feral - if they'd been in a litter of puppies it would have been a .410 in the back yard.

Jimmy Boyle anyone? Speciality, nailing people to floors using bayonets.

Some of the folks out there must be wearing double rose tinted.........

[Robert Cooper]

When trying to integrate Muslim immigrants, Western countries find themselves pitted against the ghost of Mohammed. Mohammed’s supreme idea was that Islam demanded complete submission, transcending all tribal and political bonds. Our supreme idea is that political representation allows law to coexist with human freedom.
Western nations expect Muslim immigrants to live by a code that separates civil and religious laws. The Western system assumes that Muslims will accept a division between the political and the religious, relegating religion to the mosque, while otherwise being Englishmen, Frenchmen and Americans. This concept however is innately foreign to the Muslim mind.
The two supreme ideas of Islam and the West are naturally incompatible. Muslims view all political laws as corrupt and Allah’s law alone as transcendent. The West preserves political and civil rights by separating civil and religious laws into separate spheres. That is not a compromise that Muslims can truly understand or respect. For all intents and purposes, both sides are speaking different political languages that represent two radically different viewpoints.
Each time we insist that there is no contradiction between being a Muslim and being a Frenchmen, a Brit or an America-- we make it that much worse. For Islam insists that there is a contradiction, even as we insist that there is none. Having given up our claim, the Western Muslim naturally moves to appease the cleric by resolving any contradictions between Islam and Western society; in Islam’s favor. And thus the moderate Muslim becomes a Jihadist enabler, if not a Jihadist himself.
Given enough centuries of residence, the problem might resolve itself. If Islam did not insist on conquering infidels by the sword, but merely on separatism, the problem would be mainly a social one. If Muslims were not swiftly moving from minorities to majorities across Europe, there might still be time. Unfortunately there is very little time left before Europe becomes Eurabia, and much of the rest of the world will follow. The toxic combination of Saudi wealth, a booming birth rate, a decaying West and the industrialized secularism of the First World colliding with the fanatical determinism of the Muslim world, leaves only two ways for this clash of civilizations to end.
One idea, one way of life must win. The other must lose. The great question being decided now in our words and deeds is which will stand and which will fall.

Bob C

[TT2]

Yes, Bob C - very valid argument. But surely the same as the Jesuits or the Children's Crusade. Or even the Nazis indoctrinating young folks?.

Personally, I'm in agreement with the French : Religion, keep it behind your own door. At least they are trying.

Never forget being in Belfast when a young lad and a super cute little girl (About 5) and her sister walked up hand in hand. I said "Hello".

The stream of abuse that emerged from her mouth had the Paras I was with speechless with laughter (But no-one ever accused the Paras of being tactful). Such hatred from a tiny little kid and now that she is probably a Grandmother herself now, has that indoctrination ever gone away?.

I wonder.

[woptb]

At last count 8 British Muslim members of Parliament,the majority of whom recently voted 'for' gay marriage - a VERY 'muslim' idea ?

Link to the British Armed Forces Muslim Association;

http://www.afma.org.uk/

Strangely not a word of Sharia,Greater Caliphates from any of the above.

The people who killed Drummer Lee Rigby were scumbags not Muslims,influenced by other evil scumbags.

[bosnich71]

As a matter of interest the 'Mirror' has a video with CCTV footage showing the arrival of the armed police. Eight shots fired after the two killers apparently rushed the police car with more murder in mind.

[woptb]

Saw the shootings on the late ITV news last night,without thinking uttered the plural C word in front of Mrs woptb,she (VERY unusually) just nodded.

[parabellum]

The people who killed Drummer Lee Rigby were scumbags not
Muslims,


They are most definitely both. Converts are often extremely zealous. Scumbags survive in all quarters.

[dctyke]

Just watching a guy on Sky News this morning, I did not realise the Army had a 'Muslim Association'. When all the talk is integration of society I often wonder if organisations like this and for example 'The Black Police Association' are not making things worse. I do not have a hint racist leanings in myself at at all and would be agast if there was a White Police Association however do we sometimes go to far when pandering to minority groups.

[woptb]

"I am a huge supporter of the creation of the Armed Forces Muslim Association. It reflects the growing numbers, importance and relevance of the Muslim soldiers, sailors and airmen serving the United Kingdom with such distinction today and, I have no doubt, in the future.

It is right that these outstanding people have an organisation around which their views and aspirations can coalesce. It will also serve as a focal point for those that seek to better understand Muslims in the Armed Forces and how they might best assist them to achieve their aspirations to the common good."

General Sir David Richards.

[langleybaston]

My daughter and son-in-law both serving police officers. White as it happens. English ancestry to 16xx proven. They say there is permanent outrage among their white colleagues that a White Police Officers [or Native English] is not permitted.

That is on a par with no English Parliament of course.

Can't say a word on such subjects without a verbal stoning, though.

I shall be surprised if I am not admonished!

[TBM-Legend]

Rest in Peace

[Enoch Powell was right, please don't forget it!]

[snagged1]

A truly awful attack - thoughts with the family and friends.

In response to the attack, to show those who would do such things that we will never be subdued by fear - would it be appropriate (if permission was granted by HM) for serving, and retired members of the armed forces to wear uniform for a day in London/around the UK (be it to their active places of duty, or indeed their civilian places of work) - to show we will not be pushed into submitting to evil attacks such as this? And that there is a whole 'military' out there of people against them (serving, retired and the public!)?:ok:

Just a thought.

Again sympathy to the family. RIP

[woptb]

Someone who has articulated his feelings better than I;

Just out for a walk after an early stack
Not looking for trouble not watching my back
Mothers with prams holding hands with their kids
Not paying attention to the car as it skids
Caught completely off guard not expecting what comes
One man with a knife another with guns.
No chance of defence no chance to fight back
Looking for help as the cowards attack
An angel arrives as the light turns to grey
A woman attempts to steer attackers away
My last thought of ‘Thank You’ never strays from my brain
As my body shuts down and I feel no more pain.

I look to my left and I look to my right
Thousands of squaddies are all that’s in sight
Uniforms are crisp and their faces are clean
No sign of anger or hate to be seen
As if by command they salute all as one
The RSM smiles, says ‘Welcome home son’.

[woptb]

“Pit race against race, religion against religion, prejudice against prejudice. Divide and conquer! We must not let that happen here.”
― Eleanor Roosevelt

[alisoncc]

In response to the attack, to show those who would do such things that we will never be subdued by fear - would it be appropriate (if permission was granted by HM) for serving, and retired members of the armed forces to wear uniform for a day in London/around the UK (be it to their active places of duty, or indeed their civilian places of work) - to show we will not be pushed into submitting to evil attacks such as this? And that there is a whole 'military' out there of people against them (serving, retired and the public!)?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Brill idea. If everyone who has served at some point in time were to wear uniform, awards, badges, whatever and in doing so indicate there support for the bereaved and Drummer Rigby on, say, Tuesday the 28th, then those who commit these foul acts might get to understand what they are up against.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Whilst it might be of limited value, everyone that I know on FB (well almost everyone) who has at any time worn a military uniform (even if it was as a cadet or a member of the UAS) has changed their profile to a picture of themself in uniform. Just as a bit of solidarity.


Duncs:ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

The (unarmed) police were on the scene in around 8 minutes - which is pretty good in London given the traffic

I presume that they took a look, decided that

a) the bastards were going to stay put,

b) they weren't threatening any of the public

c) they wanted to kill more soldiers/coppers

d) they were waiting for martyrdom

so sit back, observe and wait for the guys with guns - quite reasonable

[Heathrow Harry]

I am amazed by some of lunatic, racist rubbish spouted in some of the posts on here

Don't you guys ever look in the mirror?

What's the difference between you and these jihadis?

Nothing but hate & fear spilling out on anyone who doesn't look like you, or sound like you

[Cows getting bigger]

:D:D:D

It doesn't seem that long ago when a certain young CGB would walk into the Mess and have to explain why an Irish Catholic was in the RAF and not playing around with semtex, 9V batteries and a Tupperware lunch box.

As for the Woolwich chaps - criminals, nothing more.

[ricardian]

A voice of sanity - a British Muslim imam

[langleybaston]

I thought the armed police [just watch the video!] were magnificent.

QRA doesn't get much quicker than that!

Nice one.

[El Grifo]

What's the difference between you and these jihadis?



Probably something minmal like " cold blooded, savage murder"


As for the Woolwich chaps - criminals, nothing more

Overlooking completely the established fact that they were self-proclaimed and known muslims !!

[cargosales]

I thought the armed police [just watch the video!] were magnificent.

QRA doesn't get much quicker than that!

Nice one.

Hmmm.. I've been wondering about whether or not to post, lest it gets taken the wrong way by some but what the heck.

Just how magnificent were our armed 'boys in blue'? .. On the video on the Mirror's website, Woolwich attack video: Watch full extended footage of terrorists charging at police car in attempt to kill WPC - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-video-watch-full-1908975) we see/hear Suspect No. 1 getting taken out with two rounds. After which he is seen lying on the ground moving his legs (shame) and writhing (hopefully in lots of pain).

Suspect No.2 then takes four rounds, and, a second or two later, another two rounds. That's 6 !! But by all accounts he is still alive and now under armed guard in hospital.

So .. Are our armed police 'shooting to cause minimum pain' or are they just crap shots? 6 rounds and a murderer is still alive??? !!!

Genuine question: What the hell is going on with our armed police units?

CS

[tonker]

I feel a 9mm v .45, which is best thread starting.

[muppetofthenorth]

CS, according to some witnesses the 2 suspects also had a pistol which they attempted to use. At least one of the shots is believed to have come from them.

[CoffmanStarter]

Charity Help for Heroes has received almost £600,000 in money and pledges from the public since Wednesday's Woolwich murder

It won't bring back Drummer Lee Rigby ... but a tremendous and touching response nonetheless.

Let's hope that his Widow and young Son are looked after financially ... they should want or nothing ... likewise for any other Military Service person, and their immediate family, killed on active service or through a terrorist atrocity.

[Rosevidney1]

Why was it thought necessary to allow uncontrolled immigration into a small already overpopulated country? Why are so many of these immigrants just welfare cases with chips on their shoulders and a NEED to change the laws of society? What has multi-culturalism done for us? I am fed up with the host of bogus asylum seekers free loading here. I support immigration for those with qualifications lacking in our increasingly dumbed down society and I would permit those of UK origin to return to our shores when thrown out by foreign nations, especially those in Africa.

[fantom]

You may wish to ask your questions to Mr Blair.

[UAV689]

Great poem on page 7.

RIP to you tommy, stand easy.

Words absolutely fail me to the horror of what happened, yet in the darkest hours, quite often the best in humanity is shown, this time by those brave selfless women, both the one guarding the fallen hero and the brave female officers that took them down.

Last week I saw a video that was viral on Facebook, of a girl attending a march in Luton from a bbc3 show, was shocking the attitudes displayed. If I knew how to link here I would.

There is without doubt a secular mindset of a large section of Islamic communities. Alongside that, you absolutely cannot deny the violence, mindset, dictatorial, tribal, backwardness of the vast majority of Islamic countries. It is no wonder a section of them behave this way. It would not be hard to radicalise people when historically they come from countries like that.

[Laarbruch72]

You absolutely cannot deny the violence, mindset, dictatorial, tribal, backwardness of the vast majority of Islamic countries.It is no wonder a section of them behave this way. It would not be hard to radicalise people when historically they come from countries like that.


Please bear in mind that the two Woolwich nutters were born Christians and brought up in the UK and then converted and radicalised here, they were not from Islamic countries. It might be better to turn your spotlight on why and how they were radicalised and became truly mental here at home, rather than trying to blame "dictatorial tribal backwardness" of Islamic countries in general.

With the apparent advanced age and cold war vintage of many of the posters in this thread and the whole military forum these days, it's rapidly becoming a parody of a Richard Littlejohn column. Thank goodness for the likes of Heathrow Harry, Ricardian and pr00ne, and the one or two current and recent serving. Otherwise we're going to hell in a handcart. :rolleyes:

[Jabba_TG12]

we are already going to hell in a handcart, Laarbruch. We're about fifteen or twenty years down that road, if not more.

Maybe it is the old cold war warrior age of some of the posters on here.. if youre happy with the general state of things and the direction that British society is going in, good for you. With respect, and the fact that you mentioned the age group of the cold war types as a factor, Im inclined to think that you are young enough not to have known any different, although I'll happily stand corrected if Im wrong.

I'd like to be able to agree with you and say that all in the garden is rosy, but I honestly cannot.

All I know is that the events of the other day shocked me to my core and Even as a widower myself, I cannot begin to imagine the pain Drummer Rigby's family are going through and will carry with them for the rest of their days. Regardless of how things were during the crusades or 500 years ago, the Uk was not a liberal democracy in those times. Things have moved on. There can be no excuse, no justification for such an act, either on the battlefield or off it.

And, as much as I dread it happening, I have grave doubts about just how many more cheeks the silent majority will turn before a tipping point comes. Whatever the liberals or left wingers may think of the great unwashed, however much they may sneer at look down their noses at them and see them as incapable of rational independent thought, if there are any, let alone many more of these incidents on British soil - and remember, the likes of MI5 have snuffed out more of these planned attacks of this nature than have happened, and people are serving jail sentences as a result: one is reminded of an old PIRA statement "You have to be lucky all the time.. we only have. to be lucky once" - it worries me that there will be a real backlash. Not just a bunch of Millwall fans bricking the odd mosque and chucking bottles at the rozzers. I mean serious disorder.

I just hope that Im not around to see it.

RIP Drummer Rigby. Nobody deserved that. Nobody.

[Finningley Boy]

As a former "TG12" Cold War Warrior I fully agree with Jabba TG12, I would add that while the two assailants in question were born as Christians and in the U.K. their Brain washing, radicalization call what you will, was provided by a Gentleman and his disciples who were not born here in the U.K. but hail from the very Islamic countries which still do practice medieval level justice. The reason why these characters get the way they are is resentment at the largely white make up of the population, the Decadence (which we have mostly the leftwing radicals of yesteryear to thank for) and their own perceptions that perhaps socially they feel out of place. This resentment is given a pressure valve release, so to speak, via the existence of imported extreme islamic views and the those who fill these young fellahs heads with it all, such as Adem Choudary, Abu Hamza (now in the U.S. penal system I know) and the chap that Teresa May can't manage to get deported because of the well constructed legal system which the Government are following to the letter!

FB

[cuefaye]

Two very well reasoned posts Jabba and FBoy. Not racist in any way, not provocative, and I'm pretty certain representative of the hugely moderate UK populus - of whatever cast.

[woptb]

“The reason why these characters get the way they are is resentment at the largely white make up of the population, the Decadence (which we have mostly the leftwing radicals of yesteryear to thank for) and their own perceptions that perhaps socially they feel out of place.”

What decadence? These aren’t the last days of the Roman Empire! I’m a citizen of a great country & I believe the majority of people in it, are good & decent. I would certainly never live anywhere else. Why are the left-wingers to blame? It’s all the fault of lesbian social workers from Lewisham?

Many people would like to live in a less complex, confusing age than our own. They are not at home with today's moral relativism and yearn for communities that have passed. They are afraid of being globalised. When I see commercial overkill, pavement cyclists or casual loutishness, I temporarily join this group.
But the penalty paid for social conservatism is too great. I don't want my daughter to be nothing but a housewife, I don't want to return to 'No blacks or Irish' signs in boarding-house windows & casual racism,jokes about nig-nogs & hilarious military nicknames like Snowy & Sooty !
I like the idea of gay priests & soldiers, sailors & airmen – they have the same capacity to love, fight & die for their country, as well as the straight man or woman next to them. I have no desire to force people to remain in loveless marriages. I hate the idea of back street abortions & support a woman’s right to choose. I couldn’t easily live in a country which enforced capital punishment. In fact, I don’t want to sit in constant judgment on my neighbors, or have them sit in judgment on me.
I am increasingly suspicious of those who, from Left or Right, want to go backwards. Aren't they the same people who are always moaning? They regret the passing of the days of the stiff upper lip, at the same time as complaining about one inch of snow, one inch of floodwater or three days of heat?
In the Fifties & early sixties, when thousands of men who'd survived the trenches were still in their sixties and the country was full of men and women who'd been through the Blitz. Strangely, they didn't spend their time longing for the return of the workhouse and public hangings.
I dislike individuals who damn whole religions or nations on the basis of the actions of a few. When we start using ‘them’, it’s a victory for that small number of hideously base humans, the like of which killed Lee Rigby.

[Courtney Mil]

There will be a few voices from the margins attempting to exploit the events in South London for various political ends, but our natural response to attack is to rally round, to support each other, to reach out. It is about respect and calm.
Those are the principles that our police, security services and military seek to protect.


There is bound to be a mix of reactions to this abomination and it is to be expected that some will link it numerous others - or to other attempted atrocities. Time for caution, I think.

[Finningley Boy]

What decadence? These aren’t the last days of the Roman Empire! I’m a citizen of a great country & I believe the majority of people in it, are good & decent. I would certainly never live anywhere else. Why are the left-wingers to blame? It’s all the fault of lesbian social workers from Lewisham?

I am largely referring to perceptions and how one's face fits Sir. However, yes, a lot of the negative aspects of more Liberal Social policy was pursued in earlier years by the mainstream left. The accommodation of Gays and Lesbians was more progressively pursued by the Labour Party, who represented moderation on such issue, they would after all they are a party of Government. But on other matters, Such as the Death penalty, they brought about its abolition, they pursued a lighter less judgmental approach to illegal drug abuse, they attacked John Major for his one attempt to tackle the growing problem of marriage break up and single parent families. I'm not saying they are necessarily in the wrong all the time, but they do get things wrong and they have become in recent times a bunch of hypocrites. There are many a Left winger today struggling to reconcile there defence of Islam and those who seek to bring its more fundamental customs to our shores and their hyper sensitive defence of such matters as Gay rights and the rights of all those who hold religious beliefs dearly, who are not Muslims. But this is just how I see it.:ok:

FB:)

[SOSL]

Hi, El G.

You said "Overlooking completely the established fact that they were self-proclaimed and known muslims !!"

Well actually, they were self-proclaimed and known murdering scum!! You only have to watch the video to see what a total loser the first guy was.

If you consider him to be a true representative of a major, worldwide religion, I would seriously question your judgement

For instance , could you imagine the Archbishop of Canterbury spuriously apologising for women having to witness his barbarity?

Cargosales. How many shots were fired by the good guys and how many by the bad guys? Do you know?

Rgds SOS

[rab-k]

Be careful what you post - some less restrained individuals have been on the receiving end of "the knock".

Woolwich murder sparks anti-Muslim backlash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664835)

[woptb]

Changes in society arn't all for the better & I wasn't defending the left or right or attacking you as an individual,but if you believe its all the left or right your missing the point.
If you firstly accept the premise that society exists (I do),it isn't just made up of politicians (although they can profoundly affect it).
It's individuals,my basic philosophy is to do unto others.
If I see people doing awful things, I react to them as individuals I don't damn whole religions or race's.

[El Grifo]

If you consider him to be a true representative of a major, worldwide religion, I would seriously question your judgement



That's a big "If" SOSL !

I stated a simple and true fact :-

Overlooking completely the established fact that they were self-proclaimed and known muslims !

[woptb]

Overlooking completely the established fact that they were self-proclaimed and known muslims !

So ergo all Muslims are murderous scumbags ? If not,then the fact that they were Muslims means precisely what ?

[El Grifo]

Some serious leaping and hopping going on here today !!

So ergo all Muslims are murderous scumbags ? If not,then the fact that they were Muslims means precisely what ?

Watch the full video or read the transcript, then come back and tell me precisely what it means.

[woptb]

Weird ! No leaping or hopping.
Those people were & are scum for what they did. I'll re-phrase the question;the fact the're muslims means precisely what ? You seem to be trying to articulate something,what is it ?

[El Grifo]

Let's establish a core fact.

Were the perpetrators muslim or were they not ?

[woptb]

Yes,as noted in mine & others previous post.

[El Grifo]

Struggling to see where you are going with this so let me wind back a bit.

Post 142 Cows getting bigger states :-

As for the Woolwich chaps - criminals, nothing more.


Based ot the muslim spout from the muslim perpetrator, I reply in post 145 :-

Overlooking completely the established fact that they were self-proclaimed and known muslims !!


So, what now ?

PS. Make this quick, I am off out for a bike ride shortly.

[woptb]

They are islamofascists,believe in an empty,false ideoolgy & are muslims. They committed a heinous act against a young soldier,who absolutely didn't deserve it,but it doesn't mean all muslims or the muslim faith is evil.

As a former servicemen, from a service family (I have a brother in Afghanistan & son about to join the RN,) who has lived all over the world. I have have met many tw@ts of many races & religions, I try not to base my feelings of dislike on race or religion. It seems some individuals on this thread are doing prcisely the opposite & i can never agree with that.
RIP Lee Rigby

[El Grifo]

Much easier for me.

Far from being "Islamophobic", I simply dislike islam, and what it has become.

Cheers
El G.

[Herod]

Ref post145; Choudary was born and raised here, as he pointed out on a sky news interview the other day.

The women who protected and tried to comfort Drummer Rigby, and the woman who confronted the attacker deserve recognition. While we have women like that in Britain, the terrorist just isn't going to win.

[El Grifo]

Ref post145; Choudary was born and raised here, as he pointed out on a sky news interview the other day.

Don't understand the connection. Could you elucidate pls ?

El G.

[SOSL]

El G, that's not a big if, that's just an ordinary if. If you don't understand the point - I think it was well made.

Being a Muslim does not mean being a murderer. It may surprise you to learn that non-muslims can also be murderers. For instance:



Beverley Allitt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverley_Allitt) – aka "Angel of Death"; paediatric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paediatric) nurse who killed four babies in her care and injured at least nine others; sentenced to life imprisonment in 1991.
Robert Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Black_(serial_killer)) – Scottish schoolgirl killer; convicted of three murders, suspected of many more.
Ian Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Brady) and Myra Hindley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myra_Hindley) – aka "Moors Murderers"; murdered five children, aged between 10 and 17 and buried them in Saddleworth Moor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddleworth_Moor).
Donald Neilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Neilson) – aka "Black Panther; killed four people, including heiress Lesley Whittle.
Dennis Nilsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Nilsen) – killer of 15 (possibly 16) men between 1978 and 1983.
Colin Norris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Norris) – nurse convicted of killing four patients in Leeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds) hospitals.
George Joseph Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Joseph_Smith) – aka "The Brides in the Bath"; killer of three women.
John Straffen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Straffen) – child killer and Britain's longest serving prisoner until his death on November 19, 2007.
Fred West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_West) and Rosemary West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_West) – aka "House of Horrors"; she was convicted of 10 murders; both are believed to have tortured and murdered at least 12 young women between 1967 and 1987, many at the couple's home in Gloucester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucester); he committed suicide in 1995 while awaiting trial.
Steve Wright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wright_(serial_killer)) – aka "The Suffolk Strangler" or "The Ipswich Ripper"; killed 5 women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich_2006_serial_murders) in six weeks around Ipswich in late 2006.
Graham Young (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Young) – aka "The Teacup Poisoner"; killed three people from 1962 to 1971.
Ill informed, bigoted, self-serving opinions expressed in public only serve the interests of the extremist morons.

Rgd SOS

[El Grifo]

Excuse me for being blunt, but are you really trying to say that I think that being a muslim makes one a murderer and that somehow I am unaware that non muslims ealso capable of murder.

We are getting a bit, well, basic here are we not :ugh:

[Petercwelch]

Still trying to figure out why British police are not trusted to carry fire arms. Despite what the mainsteam media write, in the USA thousands of crimes are prevented each year by citizens with concealed carry permits. Too bad one of them wasn't nearby to save this young soldier's life.

[Courtney Mil]

Petercwelch,

If all our policemen were armed, they still wouldn't have saved him unless one or more of them happened to be there when this happened. Given that you and I both live in countries where we can get a pizza to our doors faster than a cop - on occassions - I think you may see what I mean.

[dazdaz1]

So why did not the barrack (armed soldiers) come to help?

Daz

[woptb]

Excuse me for being blunt, but are you really trying to say that I think that being a muslim makes one a murderer

That seemed to me what you were implying.That's why I asked what exactly you were trying to articulate.The Impression you 'seemed' to give me & appears one other, is that all muslims are the same.

[El Grifo]

woptb, I was going to prefix this post using the words "sorry but" or similar, but I would have been lying.

Leaps to conclusion of the nature and quality of yours are more akin to those heard in a primary school or kindergarten.

Go away and bother someone else you silly fellow :confused:

[diginagain]

So why did not the barrack (armed soldiers) come to help?

You assume that the gate-guard were;
a. Armed.
b. Aware of what was taking-place in a location not in the immediate vicinity of their post.
c. Permitted under their orders to intervene in a public-order scenario where the Police were in attendance, in a country where the Police have primacy in such events.

[Out Of Trim]

Better still, allow servicemen to carry a firearm for self protection.

Just like they did when in Northern Ireland in past years.

Might have to buy a large quantity of new weapons though!

[diginagain]

Better still, allow servicemen to carry a firearm for self protection.
Just what we need; more weapons on the streets.

Just how Drummer Rigby would have been able to defend himself having just been knocked off his feet by a car escapes me.

[Out Of Trim]

It wouldn't have saved the unfortunate Drummer Rigby (RIP); however, now serviceman are fully aware that they are not safe to walk the streets of our own country.

It might save someone in the future and they would not be such soft targets!

[Thaihawk]

It is good the two peices of filth involved in this murder were taken alive so they can be interrogated-hopefully robustly.Personally I would like to see them connected to the electric mains if it gets answers out of then as to who helped them and who they are associated with.

Death is an easy release for them,maybe it is better they spend the next 40 or 50 years forever looking over their shoulders wondering when the next punch/kick/blade/pot of boiling water is going to hit them.And boy,do I hope they suffer in prison for the rest of their pathetic little lives.

These two should NOT benefit from any legal assistance or have access to any lawyers or social workers or prison visitors ever-just locked away from sunlight with food mixed with the waste from other prisoners in a vile prison with no amenities whatsoever.

They should also be denied the right to any religous observance whatsoever.

In future Britain should build a prison in somewhere like South Georgia to house scum of this nature.

And for those inmates sent there there should be no return.

[woptb]

[woptb, I was going to prefix this post using the words "sorry but" or similar, but I would have been lying.

Leaps to conclusion of the nature and quality of yours are more akin to those heard in a primary school or kindergarten.

Go away and bother someone else you silly fellow /QUOTE]

Come,come chum when you agree with inflammatory statements,the like of :-

[QUOTE]long before the irreversible demographic turning point is reached, life in Britain will be flavored with regional events like public beheadings, honor killings and religious bombings.

Even nursery school kids have some self awareness. Hang on I'll just add a frightfully witty emoticon to reinforce the point:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

You assume that the gate-guard were;
a. Armed.
b. Aware of what was taking-place in a location not in the immediate vicinity of their post.
c. Permitted under their orders to intervene in a public-order scenario where the Police were in attendance, in a country where the Police have primacy in such events.

To which one can also add that if the guard was drawn forward to this incident it would have opened up the barracks for others to infiltrate.

Then we have to consider the throng of civilians around the scene.

Military rounds are also not best suited to us in this environment. They have jacketed rounds in accordance with the Geneva Convention. The Civpol OTOH have unjacketed rounds to reduce the possibility of rounds passing through their target and injuring others.

Perhaps military armed guards in UK should be provided with unjacketed rounds?

As an after thought, you can legislate and ban racism but you cannot alter people's minds. My MiL was raised when the UK population was largely white. She is scared of anyone that does not look or behave as she was brought up to expect - unkempt people of druggist appearance, and coloured man etc etc simply scare her. I am sure that her feelings are echoed by many of her generation that live in middle England and outside the big cities.

[Wensleydale]

Perhaps military armed guards in UK should be provided with unjacketed
rounds?



I always considered that a shotgun was the best form of deterrent for the gate guards. Short range but good stopping power.

[diginagain]

Had the gate-guard reacted to what may have appeared at first inspection to have been an RTA, would they have been in any position to engage the assailants, or would they have simply provided more victims to assault?

[highflyer40]

I have to agree. el grifos comment was ludicrous.

[El Grifo]

I have to agree. el grifos comment was ludicrous.

I am having a bit of a prob keeping up, I will admit.

What comment was that pls.

Of out now, but if it anything vaguely sensible I will get back to you later :ok:

[highflyer40]

el grifo. I don't know whether you are Christian or not, but I'll take a stab in the dark and say you are. given that Christians have cause by far the most atrocities/deaths over the centuries am I therefore to brand you and all Christians terrorists? these were two deluded and deranged individuals. but to blame the entire Muslim faith is ignorant in the extreme.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Veering off thread a little,

Still trying to figure out why British police are not trusted to carry fire arms. Despite what the mainsteam media write, in the USA thousands of crimes are prevented each year by citizens with concealed carry permits. Too bad one of them wasn't nearby to save this young soldier's life.

Firstly, some British police are trusted to carry firearms (as shown the other day) but it is generally they who don't wish to be routinely armed. Surveys by the Police Federation regularly show a reluctance by rank and file police officers to carry firearms for a number of reasons.

Secondly, (without wishing to sound like I'm making light of it) the state of Massachusettes has both police who are routinely armed and a CCP scheme, how has that worked out recently with regards preventing terrorism?

Not every crime can be stopped by guns being near by, especially not if the criminals (as in the Woolwich case) seem like they want to be helped on their way to all those virgins 'suicide by police' style.

[Melchett01]

Originally Posted by dazdaz1
So why did not the barrack (armed soldiers) come to help?

I did have a similar hypothetical thought along those lines. IF the guard force had full view of what was going on from the start of the incident and IF they knew that the individual being attacked was military and their life was in immediate and mortal danger and IF they had constant PID on the attackers, where would they have been on RoE grounds regarding engaging the attackers?

I suspect that is more of a rhetorical question than anything given the current litigious nature of society but possibly an interesting question for the Legads and CCS if we really are going down the route of military personnel being 'fair game' for pretty much anyone who disagrees with anything we have done over the past couple of centuries.

[Pontius Navigator]

I am having a bit of a prob keeping up, I will admit.

What comment was that pls

You said it.

I found your terse responses to multiple, and sometimes unattributed, posts difficult to follow. I had to read back to the OP then try and read your selective answer.

I have no idea of your argument (I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing) and I am simply confused. If you are more explicit then all may become clearer.

[Justanopinion]

I did have a similar hypothetical thought along those lines. IF the guard force had full view of what was going on from the start of the incident and IF they knew that the individual being attacked was military and their life was in immediate and mortal danger and IF they had constant PID on the attackers, where would they have been on RoE grounds regarding engaging the attackers?

The right to self defence would have meant anyone could have used "reasonable force" to prevent the loss of life. Irrelevant that the person being attacked was military. Would suggest that armed guard using a gun to prevent knife wielding nutter would be considered reasonable force.

[Melchett01]

Justanopinion,

That's what I would have thought - and I'm pretty sure if it went to court, any reasonably sane jury would agree. But this is the MOD and its very special breed of touchy feely Legads and a fairly liberal ruling elite making the rules we are talking about here!

[November4]

Since the attack, a number of people have been charged by police after allegedly offensive messages were posted on social media websites.

These include a 22-year-old man from Lincoln, a 28-year-old man from London, a 23-year-old woman from Southsea, and a 19-year-old man from Woking.

Three men - two from Gateshead and one from Stockton - have been arrested by Northumbria Police on suspicion of posting racist tweets.

BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664835)

Having seen some very offensive posts (to my mind) about Drummer Rigby's murder including one FB group saying that "Lee Rigby was a rapist and deserved to die (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lee-Rigby-was-a-rapist-and-deserved-to-die/392169994232505)", no one has been arrested over these posts yet.

[Petercwelch]

Firearms do not come with guarantees that they will help in every case. However, had this soldier been armed, or had the first police on the scene been armed, no one can convince me that this innocent young man's life might not have been saved. I am not concerned in the least that these two heartless muslim murderers might have been shot. Evidently the police who first arrived were forced (?) to stand around and "watch" til armed police arrived! This is the result of incredibly foolish policy. Those unfamiliar with firearms often seem to believe, as do many liberals in the USA, that firearms are inherently evil and that police cannot be trusted to use them properly.

[NutLoose]

Evidently the police who first arrived were forced (?) to stand around and "watch" til armed police arrived! This is the result of incredibly foolish policy

Unfortunately health and safety etc prevents them doing what they should in my opinion be doing, though some nutter waving a gun about, would you?
Shame they didn't simply run the scroat with the gun over...

It's a sad indication of the way things have gone in the UK, though to be fair I have seen similar items in the US.

See

999 crews: We can't rescue drowning man from 3ft pond... it's too DEEP - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/999-crews-we-cant-rescue-drowning-737046)

[diginagain]

Unfortunately health and safety etc prevents them doing what they should in my opinion be doing, though some nutter waving a gun about, would you?Alternatively, the first Officers on the scene assess that the situation may escalate into a massacre and therefore prevention of that escalation is a priority. The casualty may or may not be beyond assistance but attending to him would put the Officers at risk of attack. The knife-wielding thug and his possibly-armed companion are wearing heavy clothing, and therefore unlikely to be subdued with a one-shot Tazer, and the ARV will arrive shortly. Attempting to clobber one or both with the patrol-car seems pointless, since both are clearly capable of stepping out of the way.

It's only my POV, and I wasn't there, so, IMHO, they did a pretty-good job of preventing further casualties.

[woptb]

[QUOTAlternatively, the first Officers on the scene assess that the situation may escalate into a massacre and therefore prevention of that escalation is a priority. The casualty may or may not be beyond assistance but attending to him would put the Officers at risk of attack. The knife-wielding thug and his possibly-armed companion are wearing heavy clothing, and therefore unlikely to be subdued with a one-shot Tazer, and the ARV will arrive shortly. Attempting to clobbering one or both with the patrol-car seems pointless, since both are clearly capable of stepping out of the way.

It's only my POV, and I wasn't there, so, IMHO, they did a pretty-good job of preventing further casualties. E][/QUOTE]

Digininagain,pretty much my view. Easy to second guess & pontificate without knowing the ground truth.
The police aren’t perfect, but their aim is to act professionally, minimise risk to life & to apprehend suspects.
I start from the viewpoint that our military & emergency services conduct themselves in a professional manner & fortunately am rarely disappointed.

[El Grifo]

el grifo. I don't know whether you are Christian or not, but I'll take a stab in the dark and say you are. given that Christians have cause by far the most atrocities/deaths over the centuries am I therefore to brand you and all Christians terrorists? these were two deluded and deranged individuals. but to blame the entire Muslim faith is ignorant in the extreme.

To be honest, This is the Military Forum. I normally tred lightly here.

Out of respect for the guys at the sharp end, I have to say that I have nothing more to add to this weak and limp discussion.

Cheers
El G.

[NutLoose]

Digininagain,pretty much my view. Easy to second guess & pontificate without knowing the ground truth.


Not trying to do either, simply trying to relay to our colleague over the pond as to the current state of play on how things are dealt with this side of it, hence my would you? My opinion as to what they should be doing is based on my belief that they should all be armed with more than a smile and a stick.. Problem there though is unlike the Services you may find some unsuitable to be armed... With the services Musket work is carried out in basic training, those failing the standards get chopped at the outset, something you would struggle to do with a 20 year served Plod.

[MFC_Fly]

So why did not the barrack (armed soldiers) come to help?
And where would these armed soldiers have come from? Armed guards are placed at main points of entry as well as roaming patrols inside the 'wire'. This incident was nowhere near a main point of entry, occurred outside the 'wire' and it is very likely that there was no patrol anywhere near that point in the 'wire' at the time of the incident. :ugh:

[CISTRS]

Speechless with anger.
The BBC debate sickens me with its PC platitudes. Why are we so reasonable?

We - the British - are very angry.

RIP, young Trooper cut down in your prime...

[[email protected]]

So, in America, how could it have played out with both armed police and armed civilians (carrying covertly)?

Scumbags run down soldier and jump out to attack him,

Covertly armed individual realises this is more than a road traffic incident and opens fire,

Both scumbags and an unfortunate passer by get shot,

Armed police arrive and see 4 dying people and one guy (or girl) with a gun in their hands and open fire,

Covert carrier plus another unfortunate passer by go down,

All applaud the idea that guns make America safe:ugh:


As has been shown, the UK police reaction was both proportionate and correct - if the first police officers had attacked the scumbags, it would not have saved poor Drummer Rigby's life and could have led to far more bloodshed.

However, I hope that the WPC managed to shoot them both in the bollocks and not just the legs.

[tmmorris]

I wish people would stop saying that 'Christians kill more people than Muslims in this country.' Of course they do, there are more of them (just about). I don't doubt that at least some of Ian Huntley, Myra Hindley, Fred West &c were Christian, at least nominally.

But we don't have homicidal knife-wielding maniacs killing people in the name of Christianity. We do, in the name of Islam, and we have people preaching that this is a good thing. So, there is a problem with Islam. It might be a small one, but Islam is definitely not irrelevant to the discussion.

Tim

[Stuffy]

The reaction has begun. It must have already been there just under the surface. I am not surprised in the least,and indeed predicted it 15 years ago.

BBC News - Newcastle EDL march 'attracts thousands' (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-22666647)


Woolwich: EDL Protests As Mosques Targeted (http://news.sky.com/story/1094547/woolwich-edl-protests-as-mosques-targeted)

[Pontius Navigator]

But we don't have homicidal knife-wielding maniacs killing people in the name of Christianity. We do, in the name of Islam, and we have people preaching that this is a good thing. So, there is a problem with Islam. It might be a small one, but Islam is definitely not irrelevant to the discussion.

Tim

:D

Similarly we have many other religions in the country, some of whom fled persecution in their own countries, who are both content to be here and to a greater or lesser extent integrate in to our society.

Of course most people who comment say they do not support these extremists - they would be barking mad to say they did. But do they all mean it? Similarly while people may say they do not support the EDL, do they really not support the EDL?

What people say and what people think are often different.

[[email protected]]

The same nationalistic ability to blame a whole cultural or religious group for the actions of 2 misguided individuals as was expressed in Germany in the 30's.

Muslims (or any immigrants for that matter) are not to blame for the ills of British society - the same white underclass that tends to align with BNP and EDF are far more damaging on a daily basis to the integrity of this country.

[Stuffy]

It goes deeper than misguided individuals(low intelligence, easily led with psychopathic traits, conditioned a while ago).

BBC News - Woolwich murder probe: Three more arrests (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22670375)

It starts with extremists on both sides, then spreads to others.

[Pontius Navigator]

The same nationalistic ability to blame a whole cultural or religious group for the actions of 2 misguided individuals as was expressed in Germany in the 30's.

Muslims (or any immigrants for that matter) are not to blame for the ills of British society - the same white underclass that tends to align with BNP and EDF are far more damaging on a daily basis to the integrity of this country.

Crab, while one cannot disagree with what you say, you cannot change the minds of many who were brought up in a different England. As I said, my MiL fears these people. My aunt, dead these past 20 years, worked with a particular set of women during the war and vehemently hated the whole of that group.

Right or wrong it remains a fact, it also works both ways.

PS

What distresses me, and should distress every right minded Asian, is how many reports from our favourite broadcaster and in the media blame Asians for certain crimes when Indians, Thais, Indonesians, Malaysians, Filipinos, Chinese, Sri Lankans etc are wholly innocent. For too long we have avoided calling a spade a spade.

[El Grifo]

Three men were arrested on suspicion of sending racist tweets,

This comes from the BBC report of the Newcastle protests.

Compared to the total lack of action by the police when faced with placard carrying muslims calling for death to "the infidel" et al during city demonstrations, it can only serve to increase the divide.

First four items of news on the BBC 11.00hrs bulletin.

Woolwich attack

Paris attack

PIA incident

Hizzbolah

El G.

[Old-Duffer]

The Sunday Torygraph has a montage of photographs of the flower display near the murder site.

It describes one uniformed man as being an: 'SAS Captain'. The gentleman is certainly wearing a uniform - of what I don't know and has several rows of medal ribbons and what looks like a peaked cap with a white top cover.

Anybody got any ideas - the lapel tags certainly look like a winged dagger!!

Old Duffer

[parabellum]

Quite strange. Here we have a group of people falling over themselves to disassociate the two murderers in Woolwich from the Muslim religion, yet only a month ago that same group was baying for blood and blaming everyone in the Catholic religion, from the Pope down, for the tragic failings towards youth within the Catholic church.:confused:

[[email protected]]

Pontius - my MiL is similar in viewpoint to yours (and reads the Daily Mail to boot) and generational bigotry won't disappear until that generation does.

However, reacting against all muslims because of this terrible crime will achieve nothing (apart from making a small, aggressive and unthinking minority feel better) and will probably increase racial/religious tensions to the point where more atrocities will be perpetrated.

I don't think it is woolly, liberal or dangerous to let the legal process run its course - it is far better that the scumbags survived to face justice than martyr themselves and inspire other idiots.

[diginagain]

Anybody got any ideas ...Yes. His links to the Services are tenuous at best. Or he dressed in the dark in an Army-surplus store.

[Basil]

Muslims (or any immigrants for that matter) are not to blame for the ills of British society - the same white underclass that tends to align with BNP and EDF are far more damaging on a daily basis to the integrity of this country.
Hmm, wonder if the foregoing will still be said in 100 years time?

[[email protected]]

Well that depends on whether the facists and xenophobes take control, ethnically cleanse the UK and restore white supremacy in the future - because that is what some here believe is the right way to tackle the problem.

[Basil]

the facists and xenophobes
You mean the facists and xenophobes who flew into the WTC, bombed the London Underground and murdered Drummer Rigby?

[El Grifo]

Hey crab. you remind me of La Grifa.

I might say somthing like, "hey getting a bit carried away with you love of wine", she will reply in an indignant tone. "OK I will stop as from this moment"

Middle ground crab, middle ground !!

[VinRouge]

The easiest way would to stop treating terrorism as a police matter and make it a military one. We are at war with AlQ and UK citizens going abroad for terrorist training are legitimate targets.

The UK government needs to state that as such, if you are detected abroad and taking part in terrorist training, using any available intelligence, state protection ends, you wont face the criminal courts, you wont be given legal aid, you are fair game to be removed with extreme prejudice.

We have the means, those means should be used for their primary purpose, the protection of UK citizens.

[[email protected]]

Basil and Vin Rouge - so the answer is to kill them all before they kill all us beyond-reproach white folks??

Killing your own countrymen is hardly much of an answer VR - where do you stop once you take that path and how many innocents who just seem suspicious will you kill just to get one proper bad guy?

This is clearly a very emotive issue but a knee-jerk revenge policy hasn't worked hundreds of times in the past, all around the world, and it won't work here and now.

[Pure Pursuit]

I completely disagree crab. ANYBODY found to be active in any sort of terrorist training regime is a legitimate target.

Their nationality is irrelevant. It is their motive and intent that matter and if they point towards potential events in the UK, we should be able to nip it in the bud.

[LXXIV]

As this thread is about Woolwich, has anyone spotted the photograph on Page 5 of the Sunday Telegraph showing "Captain Lee Eddison of the SAS" placing a floral tribute at the barracks? Perhaps I am out of date, but the combination of uniform styles made me wonder.
LXXIV

[NutLoose]

And now the same is happening in France

BBC News - Knife attack on soldier in Paris treated as terrorism (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22670697)

:sad:

[Old-Duffer]

LXXIV,

Post 215 refers!

Old Duffer

[Bunker Mentality]

If that man is a captain in the SAS, my cock's a kipper!

[VinRouge]

Crab,I too disagree. It's worked bl00dy well actually over the years from what I have seen.

It would help that when this scum tell their mates where they are going, then they never come back. No grave, no tomb stone, just gone. If you get on a flight and then are found inside a terrorist camp, receiving training, you should be put in the ground using all available means, it's that simple.

They aren't my country men either. I wouldn't p@ss on them if they were on fire.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Regarding the "SAS Captain," Arrse are all over it as always. (http://www.arrse.co.uk/waltenkommando/199337-sas-capt.html)

http://www.arrse.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=123417&d=1369571839

[smujsmith]

It's all (this thread) getting a bit "deep and diffuse" for me, I feel deeply regretful that people, from whatever part of the planet, can come here, make use of all the "facilities (benefits, NHS, etc etc), and then commit heinous crime, as witnessed in Woolwich. I can not begin to understand what Lee Rigby's parents and family must feel, I do know that the people who did this did it in the name of Islam. Now, if these scum had shouted "onward Christian soldiers" as they did their "work" I, would be ashamed and demanding that all like minded people be arrested and sorted out. What I do hear is an awful lot of people trying to lecture us that "not all Muslims are terrorists", well fine, but not all Englishman are bigoted and anti Muslim, but why let that get in the way of a good bit of "Brit bashing". I suspect that this thread is reaching the end of the road. It seems that as many people who believe that we must fight the Muslim terrorist, are balanced by the, the more the merrier brigade. I just hope that all of you have a happy life and don't forget that the "Raison d'Etre" of this thread is Drummer Lee Rigby RIP.

[Rosevidney1]

Parking Tickets Issued on Wrecks while Stockholm Burns - Fria Tider (http://www.friatider.se/parking-tickets-issued-on-wrecks-while-stockholm-burns)


In Sweden too, but there the government are adding insult to injury.

[flash8]

What distresses me, and should distress every right minded Asian, is how many reports from our favourite broadcaster and in the media blame Asians for certain crimes when Indians, Thais, Indonesians, Malaysians, Filipinos, Chinese, Sri Lankans etc are wholly innocent. For too long we have avoided calling a spade a spade.

Cultural 'sensitivities' mate. Can't go offending our 'friends' can we? My Sikh mate though is highly pissed off I can tell you.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Also from ARRSE: Talking Too Much Sense for BBC Coverage? (http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/199340-talking-too-much-sense-bbc-coverage.html)

Can't seem to find the URL for the video, so I have posted the link to the thread.

This common sense view from an Iman (and comments based on the teachings of Islam) should be a counter to many of the less sensible views here. I am appalled that so many accept the murderer's claims of doing in in the name of his religon at face value.

Why should Muslims have to hold marches and protests to show their disapproval? Did you you go on a march last time a white guy murdered somebody on the basis of race or religon?

Remember, the perpetrators want race war.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Smuj,

It's all (this thread) getting a bit "deep and diffuse" for me, I feel deeply regretful that people, from whatever part of the planet, can come here, make use of all the "facilities (benefits, NHS, etc etc), and then commit heinous crime, as witnessed in Woolwich.

Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale were born in London and have lived here their whole lives.

Their families, by all accounts, were typical, pleasant, Christian families of African descent, of which there are hundreds of law-abiding examples all around the country.

This isn't a case of "foreigners" coming here, using the NHS, and then committing crimes.

[Herod]

Just out of interest, how many "foreign troops" were there in Iraq and Afghanistan, "carrying out murder", prior to 9/11?

I'm sure the figures are out there somewhere, but many, many more Iraqi and Afghani Muslims have been killed by other Muslims than by foreign troops. Once religion (any religion) is twisted by those with another agenda, horrible things happen.

[Basil]

This isn't a case of "foreigners" coming here, using the NHS, and then committing crimes.
Well, if his family hadn't come here, Rigby would be alive today.
FACT is that 2nd and 3rd generation kids are turning against us.

[Basil]

In Sweden too, but there the government are adding insult to injury.
So, the Scandinavian Socialist, be nice to immigrants model doesn't work?
Could have told you that 30 years ago.

[Basil]

Did you you go on a march last time a white guy murdered somebody on the basis of race or religon?
No, but one particular Afro kid was murdered years ago and we've never heard the end of it.
If it was the other way round it would be long forgotten.
I, for one, have had ENOUGH of being treated like a second class citizen in MY country. Moslem fanatics, living off of OUR taxes can go out and threaten to kill us, damn our way of life and demand to take over our country but if a Brit says "Boo!" he's hauled up for racist incitement.
If those people don't like us, then eff off! I don't care if you are a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant. Your have self excluded by your attitude.

[Basil]

[email protected],
This is clearly a very emotive issue but a knee-jerk revenge policy hasn't worked hundreds of times in the past, all around the world, and it won't work here and now.
Well, it worked in 1939 - eventually.
You say you're mil. Well your job is/was to smite the enemies of your country.
The IRA are the enemies of my country and the SAS took them out in Gib :D
Violent Islamists are the enemies of my country and I am happy to do whatever it takes to make them stop.

[smujsmith]

5 forward 6 back #236

Sorry, can't agree with your logic on that. Had we not had a policy of letting in anyone who fancied coming here for the past 30 years, then we would not have the confliction of races that we are beginning to see now. Do you really believe that because people like yourself can empathise with immigrants, that that will stop the reaction of the likes of EDL when something like Lee Rigby's murder happens ? I believe that governments, of blue and red tastes, have used our country as an experiment in "ethnic blending". Unfortunately it didn't work, it's like trying to mix oil and water. And now the politicians are out of their depth in how to deal with it all. They will of course thrash around, blame each other, then other religions and eventually you will find that, Mr bog standard Englishman was to blame all along. At 60 I suppose I can describe myself as a "bit long in the tooth" (and cynical) but it does give me the right to suggest that I have been around for long enough to see what's going on.

I have no hatred of foreigners, Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhists or even Druids. I have a real dislike of the people who created this boiling cesspit of trouble that our country is becoming. But then, you get what you vote for I suppose.

Smudge

[SOSL]

Deep sadness for Riggers and his family and his Regiment - what an appalling event.

I agree with most posters on this thread that our tax shouldn't be spent through the NHS or Social Services (Job Seekers, tax relief, housing benefit etc etc) on violent twxts who are just taking the pxss. It should be (and largely is) spent to help the many who through no fault of their own are stuck without a job and need help. That's why we set up the welfare state - to help people who need help.

But I can't understand why anyone should think these 2 (or more?) ignorant, uneducated twxts could possibly represent the Muslim faith. I have no axe to grind because I am a Roman Catholic.

They are individuals and they are personally responsible for their own barbaric actions - Allah didn't tell them to kill this poor man - they did it because they wanted to.

I hate the crime; I hate the toxxers who committed it but I can't hate Islam because from my experience with people it is a tolerant and peaceful religion.

Sadly most muslim countries are ruled by corrupt, power seeking, sects who defile the true nature of Islam.

I could go on but I've just run out of steam!

Rgds SOS

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Smudge,

Fundamentally, I don't believe that the fact that either of the assailants' parents were born overseas makes much of a difference; they had their own reasons to convert to Islam, and it's the influence of that particular brand of Islam that most of the blame lies with.

Whether they were 2nd or 4rd generation Britons doesn't really change things. A 25th-generation Brit could choose to convert to Islam and be corrupted too.

[smujsmith]

5/6

Sure, I accept all you say. I do not blame people, or religions. I just blame the people who tried to create the mess we have become. Politicians I believe they call themselves. One thing for certain, I will, and have, put my life on the line for anyone to have an opinion on anything they feel they need to say. I will never believe that I have the monopoly on wisdom, that's why I am a student of PPRUNE Military forum, a font of great wisdom. :ok:

[TomJoad]

Deep sadness for Riggers and his family and his Regiment - what an appalling event.

I agree with most posters on this thread that our tax shouldn't be spent through the NHS or Social Services (Job Seekers, tax relief, housing benefit etc etc) on violent twxts who are just taking the pxss. It should be (and largely is) spent to help the many who through no fault of their own are stuck without a job and need help. That's why we set up the welfare state - to help people who need help.

But I can't understand why anyone should think these 2 (or more?) ignorant, uneducated twxts could possibly represent the Muslim faith. I have no axe to grind because I am a Roman Catholic.

They are individuals and they are personally responsible for their own barbaric actions - Allah didn't tell them to kill this poor man - they did it because they wanted to.

I hate the crime; I hate the toxxers who committed it but I can't hate Islam because from my experience with people it is a tolerant and peaceful religion.

Sadly most muslim countries are ruled by corrupt, power seeking, sects who defile the true nature of Islam>

I could go on but I've just run out of steam!

Rgds SOS

Firstly my sympathies to the family. I just watched the news footage of the family visit to London and the letter from Riggers' son is absolutely heartbreaking.

SOSL I agree with you entirely the only trouble is that we cannot discern the truly dangerous from the cranks lame and lazy. But you are spot on it is not Islam that is to blame - it no more corrupts than any other religion. To say so absolves those who carryout these terrible acts. The individual is to blame and they alone must stand accountable.

[Milo Minderbinder]

LXXIV

re your questions: Lee Edisson

Googling reveals this
Walter Mitty Lee Edisson - SAS Walt (http://waltermittyhunt.com/index.php/report-a-walt/viewgroup/119-walt-mitty-lee-edisson-sas-walt#.UaJEIJwyS1N)

[TomJoad]

No, but one particular Afro kid was murdered years ago and we've never heard the end of it.
If it was the other way round it would be long forgotten.
I, for one, have had ENOUGH of being treated like a second class citizen in MY country. Moslem fanatics, living off of OUR taxes can go out and threaten to kill us, damn our way of life and demand to take over our country but if a Brit says "Boo!" he's hauled up for racist incitement.
If those people don't like us, then eff off! I don't care if you are a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant. Your have self excluded by your attitude.

These people are us you (removed) - every bit as British as you. Ignore that fact and you remove yourself further from the solution. As has been said earlier the terrorist agenda is to cause the race issue. You need to apply a we bit more intelligence than them.

[VinRouge]

There is lots of confusion on here, your typical Muslim is a law abiding, respectful citizen who loves their country but doesn't want to forget their roots. Many are my friends. It's also worth pointing out that 'they' (immigrants and children of immigrants that is) contribute more to the economy than they take out, more than can be said for many of the Anglo saxon natives...

However, there is a fringe of Sufi wahabbist nut jobs, some of whom voice an opinion (their right, doesn't mean I don't think they are a bunch of cnuts for doing so). Then there are those who take it to the next level. I don't think there are any secrets to who those individuals are. And I truly believe we should be sending hardware and personnel their way when abroad training with enemies of our nation, instead of burdening the security services with keeping track of them. They should be removed, unashamedly for taking this next step. If Obama can do it, so should we.

I can think of a fair few natives who deserve their passports far less than courageous individuals like this:

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[Basil]

TomJoad, These people are us you (removed) . . .
Not much point in continuing a discussion with you then.