MERGED: Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program [Archive]

silvia85

22nd May 2013, 00:28

Someone might be able to answer this. When these cadets finish their a320 endo's will they be paid under the eBa agreement as a junior first officer on $58,000 then after 12 months do they get paid as a level 2 first officer on $98,000 like what happens to level 1 first officer's or do they remain on $58,000 as a junior first officer until they hold a complete atpl? :ugh: and that's before having to pay off their training costs over a 6 year period? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Junior FO until you get your full ATPL, which is 2-3 years I guess while ICUS time is logged. Once you hit FO in year 2 or 3 I think thats when you start paying off your endorsement which will be 15-17k/year for two years given the endorsement is $34K. So you will be on around $60k in year 1-3 then probably $70k in year 4 (Full FO wage of $90k minus $17k endoresment payback) and $80k in year 5 as this will be your second year as an FO so you will hit level 2 FO wages (around 100k), remember to take the $17k off for the second half of the endorsement payback so you'll get 80k gross that year.

So for the first 5 years of your career after your training you're on about $60 - $80k a year and you're building up A320 time in a professional airline part of the Qantas group. Not bad for someone coming in off the street given the alternative routes available to get into the airlines as jet pilots.

KRUSTY 34

22nd May 2013, 02:09

On the subject of ICUS, my understanding is that for a HCAP AOC, all that is needed (company mins aside) to hold a command is the relevant endorsement, IFR quals, and ATPL.

CASA changed the mins for the ATPL a few years ago, to facilitate the cadet progression for Low Cap AOC holders. Hense the 500 hour changes. The LCAP AOC requires, amongst other things, a min 500 hours Multi command under the IFR. However, and someone correct me if necessary, I think the 250 hour command option may still be available?

Either way, under ICAO annex 1 F/O's should be able to log ICUS from the RHS provided it's for the purpose of attaining a higher class of pilots licence (ATPL). For HCAP, the 500 Multi under the IFR does not apply!

pull-up-terrain

22nd May 2013, 03:29

I'm a LAME so I don't really know all these things but have these atpl requirements changed? (I have a son who is interested in becoming a pilot but I'm not very keen on him to join the jetstar cadetship)

Meets aeronautical experience requirements as listed in Civil Aviation Regulations (1988) (CAR) Clause 5.172 which are 1,500 hours total flight time that includes 750 hours as a pilot of a recognised or registered aeroplane, including military aircraft. The 750 hours must include:
 250 hours PIC, or
 500 hours ICUS, or
 At least 250 hours flight time (min. 70 hours PIC, and balance as ICUS), and
 200 hours cross-country flight time (can include 100 hours PIC or ICUS), and
 75 hours instrument flight time (may include not more than 30 hours ground time), and  100 hours of flight time at night (dual night flight time is not recognised)
The remaining 750 hours may be flight time logged in aeroplanes, powered aircraft or gliders. The 750 hours may include up to 200 hours logged as a Flight Engineer or Flight Navigator.

Flyboat North

22nd May 2013, 05:45

Here is the deal:

60 ab-initios per year 30 each flying school
Junior FO wage for first two years , base around 60K
onto standard contract after two years or when you get ATPL ,whichever comes first, standard aus contract that is
Out of pocket Oxford - around 40K
Out of pocket CTC - around 100K
No repayment of company loan , around 45K until year 3 of employment
Based in either Syd, Melb , Brisbane when you graduate
first 18 months increased checks supervision.

So 60 less positions per year for direct entry pilots , Virgin not hiring , so therefore some don't like these programs

VH-FTS

22nd May 2013, 06:08

The only people who do like these schemes are the wannabes who can get into a shiny jet faster, the airline bean counters, and the flying schools that make money from it.

Flyboat North, I reckon you're the later and work for Oxford with a comment like...

So 60 less positions per year for direct entry pilots , Virgin not hiring ,
so therefore some don't like these programs

pull-up-terrain

22nd May 2013, 08:23

.Junior FO wage for first two years , base around 60K
onto standard contract after two years or when you get ATPL ,whichever comes first, standard aus contract that is

Can anyone back this up? I just can't find that anywhere in the eBa.

I agree with you slam click, I really doubt my son will try out for the jetstar cadetship. Its just unrealistic in terms of being able to afford to live on such a low income for such a long time especially after investing $140k. We have been looking at how much it would roughly cost to get a cpl, Meir, atpl at bankstown, it is quite achievable to do it for under $70k and at some other areas under $60k, I wonder who is pocketing all this extra money? Because I don't know how doing the cadetship can cost soo much more...

Just another question, do jetstar pilots have progression into qantas mainline or does it only work the other way around as in, qantas mainline pilots can join jetstar under that mou.

seneca208

22nd May 2013, 08:39

I agree with you slam click, I really doubt my son will try out for the jetstar cadetship. Its just unrealistic in terms of being able to afford to live on such a low income for such a long time especially after investing $140k. .

Jetstar Cadets are probably much more financially satisfied than any pilots in GA for the first few years- especially considering you won't cruise out the door of the flying school and into a $50k/pa job. Just get your son to PM a few pilots in Broome flying the singles and they'll tell you how "hard" living on $50-60k a year would be...

pull-up-terrain

22nd May 2013, 08:40

.Out of pocket CTC - around 100K
Do you get a choice of what training provider you get to train with? I met the ctc wings CEO back in 2011 on a jetstar pilot cadetship info night and he was an absolute f$&@wit. Just bull**** lie after bull**** lie that info night. I was glad a few airline pilots had attended that night and absolutely drilled him with questions. His claim was "if the government implemented that 1500 hour rule, every airline in Australia would have to be shut down, even qantas" :ugh:

Lindstrim

22nd May 2013, 10:03

Most the group that I know of have gotten based on the Gold Coast.

And there was a selection done recently.....

Flyboat North

23rd May 2013, 00:13

Back Up

Pretty easy really just call Simon Lutton from the AFAP on 03 9928 5737 he will confirm the arrangements - knows them well as he played a role in negotiating them
Google Jetstar Pilot EBA 2008 , junior FO around $60K base for two years then onto standard payscale of around $90K base
Add at least 20% to base

The people who don't like these programs are:

Those who don't get selected
Flying schools who don't have the training contracts
Pretty much every GA/Regional pilot in Australia who aspires to the majors - as every cadet place means one less direct entry. Tough gig for these people as QF - not hiring, Virgin - not hiring (small cadetship) , Jetstar - QF transfers and cadets only. Sorry guys flying a jet with the majors - it just ain't gonna happen for most of you
Military pilots - who are looking to transition to an airline job - none there unless you like sand

VH-FTS

23rd May 2013, 00:55

But you forgot to mention the captains who have to babysit them.

j3pipercub

23rd May 2013, 01:47

Well done Flyboat! What course were you on?

One more reason never to fly One Star!

j3

Flyboat North

23rd May 2013, 01:52

Not on the course - sitting in a confined space with other blokes - not for me I think.

j3pipercub

23rd May 2013, 02:03

So not a pilot then?

Flyboat North

23rd May 2013, 04:26

Done a bit , not a whole lot , just wouldn't aspire to the flight deck of a Boeing or Airbus - but goodluck to those that do.

I would think that those who are trying to get an job with an rpt Jet operator in Aust, it really would be very grim wouldn't it.

How many DEs would have been hired by Virgin , Jetstar in 2011,12,13 , forget Qantas obviously - wouldn't be many would it ?

Some chances with FIFO but hardly big numbers

VH-FTS

23rd May 2013, 05:56

Probably part of the Oxford management team as suspected.

Flyboat North

23rd May 2013, 06:24

What is it about these facts that bother you.

Just call the reps from your own union, they will confirm the data.

Well I guess the questions answers itself really, slim DE hiring over the past few years in Oz. Out of interest how many DE would have been hired at Jetstar & Virgin in 2011, 12 ,13 - wouldn't be many would it ? Less than 50 ?

SgtBundy

23rd May 2013, 07:10

What is it about cutting down on direct entry recruiting (and by your posts gleefully limiting the opportunities of qualified pilots) that makes you so happy to defend it, and such a supporter of sausage factory low cost 200 hour cadets? The only beneficiary of this scheme is the airline, with probably some long term goal to supplant their current wage base with a new low entry one. Otherwise how can you argue a 200 hour cadet is any more effective as a pilot than one with more varied and longer experience?

But, every post you have put here so far marks you as a troll, so you probably are just happy to stir ****.

travelator

23rd May 2013, 07:12

Just curious, are the cadets actually doing ICUS? Seeing as commands (if at all) would be many years away for these guys, the only purpose of ICUS would be to achieve a higher pay. Seems incompatible with the Jetstar model and I would be surprised if this is actually happening.

This is be a question for the actual cadets or somebody who knows rather than one of the providers spruiking their product!

VH-FTS

23rd May 2013, 07:21

I don't really get what you're talking about saying to call the union. We know what happened in the past - the company attempted to save cash buy using lower pay rates for cadets but the union helped stop it. Good on them, well done Simon and the team!

But your comments about a lack of direct entry recruitment proves everyone else's point - why hire cadets if suitable pilots are out there?

Airline recruitment comes in peaks and troughs. There was a big peak a few years back, followed by a big trough, followed about 12-18 months ago by a small peak. We're in the trough now, but things will pick up again - history proves it. So why keep going on about no hiring causing frustration - direct hiring will happen again soon and make up the majority of recruitment.

I don't care if cadets are part of a long term plan to help supplement a steady supply of pilots. What I don't like is when they're used as pawns in a game to lower conditions even further. I also don't like folk who are so naive they can't see why most of the pilot group hate the cadet schemes. I really don't like the spin doctor flying schools who talk absolute rubbish to help feather their nest.

I like to play the ball, not the man. I don't personally dislike cadets - most of them are very good people and will make great pilots. But I hate them being thrown into the deep end with certain 'experts' claiming competency based training will ensure they're suitable to handle any situation. Maybe those experts should read a number of other academic studies about CRM, in particular situational awareness, and see why we're going to end up with a hole in the ground eventually when a low hour cadet was part of the crew. Yes, experienced pilots create holes occasionally too, but they also help prevent them to a greater extent then cadets do/will while they're learning about their operating evironment (that LOFT can never fully replicate).

First officers are there to act and contribute as part of the crew, not be trained in some aviation life skills for their next 1000 hours by an airline captain that LOFT and G1000 C172s couldn't replicate during their first 250 hours of 'experience'.

don2105

23rd May 2013, 07:45

Hey guys thanks for the replies gained some information. Also how much would the cadet be making after the 18 month course once they get a job at Jetstar? Does the pay increase during the six year contract?

Gligg

24th May 2013, 02:12

I can imagine cadet programs being a supplement to direct entry in the short term, but i believe the endgame will ultimately look like Ryanair et al. Hopefully i am proven wrong!

27/09

24th May 2013, 08:54

Good post FTS

Especially this

But your comments about a lack of direct entry recruitment proves everyone else's point - why hire cadets if suitable pilots are out there?

and this

I don't care if cadets are part of a long term plan to help supplement a steady supply of pilots. What I don't like is when they're used as pawns in a game to lower conditions even further. I also don't like folk who are so naive they can't see why most of the pilot group hate the cadet schemes. I really don't like the spin doctor flying schools who talk absolute rubbish to help feather their nest.

and this

I like to play the ball, not the man. I don't personally dislike cadets - most of them are very good people and will make great pilots. But I hate them being thrown into the deep end with certain 'experts' claiming competency based training will ensure they're suitable to handle any situation.

FLGOFF

1st Jun 2013, 12:47

Also how much would the cadet be making after the 18 month course once they get a job at Jetstar? Does the pay increase during the six year contract?

"Year 1 to 4 - $72k to $110k
Year 5 to 6 (Promoted to Captain) - $190k +"

That's what PATS say.

Captain Nomad

1st Jun 2013, 13:44

I would take PATS with a grain of salt...

Zero to hero in 5 years? :eek: In your dreams! I hope not for the sake of the travelling public - another good reason not to fly Jetstar...

Jack Ranga

1st Jun 2013, 17:11

Whinging on here will not achieve anything. The Jetstar cadetship is legitimate otherwise it would not be happening. If a person chooses to stump up, accept the conditions & gets to sit in the right seat the rest of you should shut your mouths & make your own way in this industry. Things have changed whether you like it or not, if you don't like it, stop whinging and find a job in another industry.

Super Cecil

1st Jun 2013, 17:56

The Jetstar cadetship is legitimate otherwise it would not be happening. If a person chooses to stump up, accept the conditions & gets to sit in the right seat the rest of you should shut your mouths & make your own way in this industry. Things have changed whether you like it or not, if you don't like it, stop whinging and find a job in another industry.
This goanna come back and bite you on the bum?

Jack Ranga

1st Jun 2013, 22:58

No mate, the industry is what it is. No amount of discussion amongst pilots is going to change it. You all can accuse each other of doing things to have caused it but in the end the employers have introduced schemes that have no shortage of takers. If there is a shortage, maybe things will change, doubt it though.

pull-up-terrain

2nd Jun 2013, 00:28

"Year 1 to 4 - $72k to $110k
Year 5 to 6 (Promoted to Captain) - $190k +"

That's what PATS say.
.

But as a cadet, you will have to deduct $15k+ per year paying off the training costs. And you will be on the junior first officer salary for 2 years too (assuming the previous comments are true).

27/09

2nd Jun 2013, 01:22

Jack R, your comments dismay me, especially coming from someone who says the are a pilot

The Jetstar cadetship is legitimate otherwise it would not be happening. Hmmm, that is a very naive statement. there's plenty of evidence to show the contrary with stuff that's happened that wasn't legit or legal. Sometimes things keep happening or going on because it hasn't been tested in court. Even if it is "legal" it doesn't make it right.

If a person chooses to stump up, accept the conditions & gets to sit in the right seat the rest of you should shut your mouths & make your own way in this industry. Things have changed whether you like it or not, if you don't like it, stop whinging and find a job in another industry. That's either a selfish or defeatist attitude, I'm not sure which, I'm inclined to think selfish. Everyone has the right to protest when they think something is not right or fair.

I think it is pretty obvious as to why the cadet scheme exists and that is to undermine pilots terms and conditions. If you're happy with that, you're entitled to that opinion but don't be annoyed when others stand up for their rights.

Jack Ranga

2nd Jun 2013, 02:10

27, if the conditions & terms weren't legitimate they wouldn't be happening. If the licence they are operating under wasn't legitimate, they wouldn't be sitting in the right seat.

You have every right to protest. Will Jetstar take your protest on board? Will the terms & conditions change to what you think is fair & reasonable? The only thing that will change the conditions are supply & demand. How are pilots conditions being undermined if pilots are accepting the conditions on offer?

Do Jetstar have a problem with operating standards? Where's the proof of this?

Homesick-Angel

2nd Jun 2013, 02:14

All the waffle in the world doesn't change a few simple facts.

If you got into aviation for the money, particularly in your first 2-5 years, you haven't done your research. A bare CPL is gonna get you not much, and you need to spend more money to make money..

Look at the outlay for the return., doing it outside a sausage factory maybe 70k to a MECIR.. Earn about 35-45 depending in what your doing.. In other words. Not much

Go to a sausage factory spend about 120 then another 34 to get type rates and earn 60.. Still not much

If your willing to accept that you will have to do an apprenticeship no matter what (and no matter how amazing you think you are), then you will be far better off both to yourself and the company.. How anyone thinks they are owed something with 200 hours in the logbook is beyond me?

Take a camera to work, try and enjoy the view, and the ride. The money will come eventually if you can put up with the bullsh1t

The cadetships are the way of the future, so get used to it. They probably are above board, but that won't make them fair or reasonable.

You want to look at fair and reasonable, then don't read the pilot award..

porch monkey

2nd Jun 2013, 02:15

Usually Jack, as you know, I'm pretty supportive of your views. But your last question about standards? You are kidding, aren't you? Mishandled flaps on approach, (multiple times, ) F+cked up Go arounds, infamous mobile phone incident, plenty to choose from. Make your argument, sure, but that isn't the way to do it mate.

Jack Ranga

2nd Jun 2013, 02:27

Porch, unfortunately my point isn't well made on the Internet :}

Yes all of those incidents have happened, why hasn't Jetstar being prosecuted? Is there one rule for them & another for the rest of us? (rhetorical question!)

Point I'm trying to make is that if there is a problem with standards & offences have been committed, who is doing something about it? If there are inconsistencies being applied it will show up.

27/09 and anybody else that is being affected by this should be doing something about it if they feel so strongly. Or dare I say it :eek: they are just whinging................

c173

2nd Jun 2013, 04:08

so basically for someone with 1500+ in ga, multi engine and turbine experience....airlines are a no go?? should I throw out my logbook and start again?

Homesick-Angel

2nd Jun 2013, 06:04

"so basically for someone with 1500+ in ga, multi engine and turbine experience....airlines are a no go?? should I throw out my logbook and start again?"

C173, I'd trust you far more than than fresh cadets in the same position..I hope the airlines feel the same.. I trust that most of them do.. I'm not saying its the only way to get there, and I'm sure the majority of cadets turn out ok, but I like that you have been out there making COMMAND decisions.. When do the cadets with no other experience get that opportunity?

PlaneWhisperer

2nd Jun 2013, 08:38

Geez,
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed again yet, it always starts with some poor guy trying to find information, and turns into a giant bashing session

deadcut

2nd Jun 2013, 08:59

DEY TUUK OUR JERBS!

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/1967290624/h89C5B715/

27/09

2nd Jun 2013, 11:05

27/09 and anybody else that is being affected by this should be doing something about it if they feel so strongly. Or dare I say it they are just whinging................

Actually Jack, I'm not affected by any of this, I'm an interested bystander, on the outside looking in if you like. Very often this gives a much better perspective.

Having seen and read what's happened elsewhere in the aviation industry where there's been cadetships like the Jetstar one I shudder to think where it will end for cadets in this part of the world. It's not a pretty future.

I see comments like yours as being naive at best and selfish at worst.

It was interesting you brought up flight standards at Jetstar, I wonder why?

KRUSTY 34

2nd Jun 2013, 11:16

In answer to your rhetorical question Jack, errr....YES!

Do a search of the previous Senate enquiry. The resulting head burying by both sides of the political fence, even when faced with overwhelming evidence of skuldugery, has been truely breathtaking.

Good wind-up though. :E

Jack Ranga

2nd Jun 2013, 11:22

If there is a problem with standards at Jetstar, in particular cadetship standards and it is deemed to be an un-acceptable standard then you change the supply/demand equation don't you. More experienced FO requirements would mean the end of cadetships & cadetship pay.

Rather than sit back complaining on this bulletin board about pay & conditions, do something about the root cause.

I'm far from naive, been around a while now. Selfish has nothing to do with it. The situation is what it is, if you have strong concerns with the industry & it's safety standards do something about it.

Captain Nomad

2nd Jun 2013, 13:13

JR if you have been around for a while as you say then you will know that...

if you have strong concerns with the industry & it's safety standards do something about it.

...is easier said than done isn't it? ;)

As an interested bystander I vote with my feet and choose not to fly Jetstar (for a number of reasons).

Kelly Slater

2nd Jun 2013, 15:33

cadetship (kəˈdɛtˌʃɪp)

Definitions

noun
the position of being a cadet

cadet (kəˈdɛt Pronunciation for cadet )

Definitions

noun
1.a young person undergoing preliminary training, usually before full entry to the uniformed services, police, etc, esp for officer status
2.a school pupil receiving elementary military training in a school corps
3.(in England and in France before 1789) a gentleman, usually a younger son, who entered the army to prepare for a commission
4.a younger son or brother
5.
See cadet branch

6.(in New Zealand) a person learning sheep farming on a sheep station

Gotta love number 6

Jack Ranga

3rd Jun 2013, 00:25

Captain, yes it is much easier said than done. I know for a fact there are people working on this behind the scenes. It wouldn't hurt if some of the people that feel so strongly about this got involved. More than likely it will take an accident before things change, human nature.

I'm with you, I don't and wouldn't fly with them, and a few others for that matter.

The Kelpie

3rd Jun 2013, 01:27

It seems this ugly little scheme has surfaced again.

The truth is that this scheme did not ever stop despite a Senate Inquiry and a pending Fairwork Australia prosecution. That is not entirely true, the advanced courses for qualified, but low experience did stop but the ab-initio courses are to this day liberating money from the naive with no prospects other than after 18 months of training, joining a long (and getting longer) queue of graduated cadets under the scheme waiting for an offer of Employment that is not guaranteed. Their plight is only made slightly easier by those lucky ones who find work elsewhere in the industry meantime and those who have resorted to working in maccas or woollies to make ends meet whilst being crippled by VETFEE HELP debt repayments. These guys may find it too hard and be happy to throw an airline career away based on their initial, bad experience after finding something better.

I am told by a few that frustration levels amongst previous cadets are starting to rise, stress levels are on the increase, ratings have long since expired and the lack of regular flying is seriously eroding skills and knowledge.

According to the evidence given by certain witnesses this is preferable to a an experienced pilot with recent command experience who is supposedly contaminated by GA!!

This scheme is morally no better than the 'black money' scheme in 60 minutes last night where scammers con you out of a huge amount of cash under the guise of a fast track to the stars and then, when you are broke, have lost everything and vulnerable the scammers offer you a job as a scammer where you will spend years scamming others, as you were scammed, to make your money back. At least the guy in 60 minutes broke the chain and I hope his wife sees that he realises he put his family's financial future at serious risk, has let them down and has tried to do the right thing. Hopefully they can put their differences behind them and be together as a family in the future.

I think it is time for a little 'Game Change' of our own as until we get a smoking hole attitudes within the airlines and particularly Jetstar will not change.

To do so requires the support of as many pilots as possible writing to your MP not about the Cadetship type arrangements, CASA has already demonstrated its shortsighted and unhelpful position by simply referring to the regs and saying its legally ok therefore we are virtually powerless.

We must address the thing that allows the cadet ships generally to survive. MONEY. It's a little like the boats coming from Indonesia, stop the boats and you will stop the transfer of money to those people smugglers that profit from it and they will move on eventually the boat will stop.

VETFEE Help is the only reason cadetships survive today in the Australian Aviation Industry - the airlines don't want to pay and without help most, if not all, have a spare 100k floating around without asking mother and father. Remove the finance that supports these schemes and there will be less cadets being able to afford the cost to participate in them and less opportunity for employers to benefit from naive individuals with easy access to a large government backed loan - without any hint of credit checking or an assessmenr of ability to repay. Aviation is a worldwide industry, leave Australia and your payments stop. Hey Wayne if your looking for ways to stem the deficit START HERE!!

Accountants at Jetstar and the Training Organisations see this as a revenue stream, nothing more. However they know that they cannot access it without an individual who is willing to sign for it. The lure for the Con: the hope of bypassing the hard yards of GA and making it directly to the glamour of a right hand seat of a High Capacity RPT will 177 fare paying passengers on board. Reality check: it is not glamorous anymore and there is a long long queue of graduates in front of you. They thought they could employ cadets for $36000 a year at the beginning but that did not last long since I exposed the scheme for what is was two years ago. It is no accident that the number of graduated Jetstar cadets actually being offered employment has slowed dramatically yet with the high number of those graduates waiting hopefully for the call there are still plenty entering the Cadetship at the bottom quietly given the details of the scheme are nowhere to be found on Jetstar's website.

How do we do this??

Using VETFEE help for the Commercial Pilots Licence is illegal under the Higher Education Support Act as this is a Certificate IV level qualification. VETFEE Help is only meant to fund the training for an instrument rating and multi engine endorsement. About $25k at the most.

Hey Julia, let Wayne and Chris Bowen know that your Government is authorising and paying out tens of millions of dollars in training funding that is not permitted by the laws that your government debated and passed!! You are in appropriately spending public money!!

.....and then to make matters worse your Government is opening up the migration system to, not only 457 pilots but, wait for it, Permanent Residency!! Show me where the shortage is if your Government Department CASA says it is perfectly acceptable for a newly qualified Commercial Pilots with an Instrument Rating and a massive 150 hours under their belt (70 in command) in a small training aircraft to be second in command on an aircraft carrying 177 of your countrymen and women....maybe even you!!!

I have posted on other threads explaining the detail.

We must take our fight to the Government since they are signing off the course approvals for the training providers.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Jack Ranga

3rd Jun 2013, 02:47

Good on you Kelpie :D :D

Do you hear from anybody who posts on here complaining of these schemes offering to get involved?

And another point, I question the intelligence of any future cadet who signs up for these schemes knowing the possible outcomes. I wouldn't want this type of person in the front of an aircraft I'm passenger in. If they are young and naive, where are their parents? Isn't it a simple matter of calculating the cost, working out the repayments, looking at the remuneration, then the bottom line?

Lookleft

3rd Jun 2013, 03:17

If they are young and naive, where are their parents?

Their parents are funding the rest of training. Most cadets I fly with usually come from a financially secure background.

poonpossum

3rd Jun 2013, 03:38

I know about 5 Jetstar cadets and they are all FOs now. In fact, I don't know anyone that is still waiting.

Having said that, it would be interesting to know how many people are actually waiting. These guys got in as soon as the scheme started..

The Kelpie,

No one is crippled by Fee Help repayments until they earn over 56k, so they would be keeping the usual amount of cash if they are slogging it out at a supermarket, unless the supermarket in question is on an oil rig.

The Kelpie

3rd Jun 2013, 03:43

The Kelpie,

No one is crippled by Fee Help repayments until they earn over 56k, so they would be keeping the usual amount of cash if they are slogging it out at a supermarket, unless the supermarket in question is on an oil rig.

Yes I am aware of that but the debt keeps growing annually while it is not being paid off and it does not appear on credit reference agency records and is therefore invisible.

Crippled does not necessarily mean in cash flow.

The following example is a sarcastic example of how lives change and life choices altered. Sorry for this it is usually not my style but sometimes, whilst respecting the opinions of others I sometimes don't think my point gets through so I have to dumb it down.

Scenario: young cadet pilot with hot partner both want to move their relationship to the next level and buy a property and move in together. The pair go to bank for a home loan.

On assessing both their incomes the back advises that on face value, despite a poor first officer's salary it would be willing to lend $400k. Great they both think, should get something nice for that!!

Then the dreaded tquestion about other borrowings. These are loaded questions cause the bank already knows what you owe!! They are there to detect honesty. Now the dilemma. Do I tell them about my FEEHELP debt?? If you do they will only lend you $250k knowing that you owe $100k to the Government without an asset to show for it. On top of that you owe $100k to your employer as well!! Hmmm. The bank now sees that your ability to repay a bank loan is seriously in doubt and you are knocked back!

Don't tell them and when they check your payslips and tax return they will see it there so you will be seen as not disclosing.

Hot partner gets frustrated by the amount of financial baggage you are bringing into the relationship and the affect it is having on both your ability to buy the house you both want. Life choices are affected and relationship becomes stressed, may even break.

It's ok you say, in 6 years I will make Captain and we will be able to afford the house. Hot partner says ok, call me when that happens and if I am still single then we can hook up.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

mcgrath50

3rd Jun 2013, 03:57

The Kelpie

3rd Jun 2013, 04:18

The debt only goes up by CPI, if you are going to go into debt for something it's the cheapest money you will ever get. For any degree it's better to use the HELP schemes than to get a personal loan or redraw on a mortgage.

Agree McGrath but debt is debt, that is why the World's economies are in the mess they are in, because borrowing is too easy and we are much to eager to buy now and pay later.

A HELP funded degree whilst not costing anywhere in the region of pilot training will generally be broad enough in scope to lead to a reasonable graduate position and salary within a shortish timescale if you are not too fussy.

What we are talking here is paying over $100k (up to $200k for the Jetstar "Designer Course") for a lower level certificate IV qualification in a highly specialised industry, with relatively limited opportunities and for those opportunities that do exist extremely low paid.

Reasonable paying jobs are restricted by Airline minimums and are not available so they sponsor migrants from overseas making the whole job availability situation worse.

Ask Wayne Swann how much of his defecit is down to interest payments and how this has increased over the past 4 years.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

kingRB

3rd Jun 2013, 05:27

McGrath if you crunch the numbers on any reasonable amount of debt, that CPI applied to the debt is actually fairly expensive. Yeah it's still cheaper than money from any financial institution, but if you only make minimum payments based on the income threshold for repayment, your debt will be around for decades.

Worse if you end up out of a job or not earning enough to make payments at all, that balance keeps increasing. It's not the free ride most students think it is when they agree to take it out. Borrowing upwards of $100K to fund getting into this kind of industry based on your only means to repay being in aviation could have the potential to financially ruin your life.

pull-up-terrain

3rd Jun 2013, 07:38

KingRB and the Kelpie have hit the nail on the head, that is why my son won't be doing the jetstar cadetship. It isn't worth having such a gigantic debt like that o er your head in such a low paying job at such a young age. If the starting salary was what the level 1 FO's are on, it may be worth it, but living off $58k base with such a huge loan is incredibly stupid. And, there is no garuntee of a job at the end of the cadetship. What is going to happen withh all the Qantas pilots on mou, I'm certain a lot of them will be staying at jetstar because there will be no job to return to back at qantas, there are a lot of 744 second officers who probably will jump accross to jetstar in the not so near future which is going to displace a lot of the available jobs at jetstar.

I mentioned before, it is quite achievable gaining your ppl all the way up to an atpl for under $70k. And sure general aviation might not pay you more than $58k initially, but it won't take you too long to get a hold of a turbo prop job that does.

The Kelpie

3rd Jun 2013, 09:19

Don't forget guys and girls that the VETFEE element is only less than half the financial story.

Once you add the VETFEE admin fee of circa $20k and the Jetstar funded loan you are all in for approaching, if not a little over $200k

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Lookleft

3rd Jun 2013, 10:33

I wouldn't be so sure that the MOU guys will be staying at Jetstar in large numbers. The guys on MOU will have to resign from QF to stay at Jetstar so those on the highest level of QF super won,t be giving that up in a hurry. I would guess that they will go back but have a LWOP job lined up somewhere.

Jack Ranga

3rd Jun 2013, 14:27

At least one parent is ensuring their young & naive son is informed & not contributing to the supply curve :ok:

Jabawocky

3rd Jun 2013, 21:36

indeed Jack.

And it took almost zero input from said parents.

Perhaps he looked at all the Airline friends of parents and worked it out.

I am with the kelpie on this one, until proven otherwise, it does not make sense.

Jack Ranga

4th Jun 2013, 01:28

Make that two sets of parents ;)

Do we reckon we're getting any closer to the root causes? There's a few

Flowerpot Man

6th Jun 2013, 02:46

Root cause? Simple. Airlines are businesses that are there to make money. Pilots take a huge amount of money out of the business. Pay pilots less, make more money. Repeat until broke and/or major accident occurs. It's so easy an idiot could have thought of it!

For what it's worth, I know a couple of JQ JFOs. Compared to their contemps of a similar age they are all pretty happy to be where they are rather than flying 50 year old Cessnas around the desert, especially considering that the boys and girls doing that are by and large all in a similar FEE-HELP debt position (actually a little worse off as they aren't making enough money to pay off any of it).

Jack Ranga

6th Jun 2013, 03:32

You've probably jumped ahead a little. Overall a businesses costs do have an affect but it's not a cause is it?

Summarising:

Root cause number one: parents not providing their children with a financial education. They are probably ill equipped to in the first place having grown up themselves in an era of easy credit, easy bankruptcy & not taking responsibility for one's actions.

C'mon, there are more causes, thinking caps on

BEAU JOKER

7th Jun 2013, 06:11

Just another thread of bleating and moaning from todays generation - including the older grey haired variety of Oz pilots, about ab-initio pilots going directly onto big acft.

REF -

Hamble College of Air Training was a flight training centre in Hampshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire).
During the late fifties it became apparent that there was going to be a shortage of ex military pilots who would be available to crew British civil aircraft. The two (then) state owned airline corporations, BOAC and BEA, in collaboration with the Ministry of Aviation, proposed a flying school based loosely on the Royal Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force)'s officer training college at Cranwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranwell). The site chosen was a small airfield at Hamble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamble-le-Rice), Hampshire in the Southern United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), used at the time by Air Service Training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Service_Training) and Southampton University Air Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southampton_University_Air_Squadron). The first course of cadets began training in 1960.
The college continued operations until the mid-1980s: British Airways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways) (the merged BOAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOAC) and BEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEA)) announced the closure in 1982 and in 1984 the land was sold for development and the equipment disposed of.
For the first few years of operation the course lasted two years: later courses were shortened to eighteen months. Cadets were accepted equally from the ranks of school leavers and university graduates: previous flying experience was not a requirement. Following fifteen weeks of ground study, ab initio and, later, advanced flying training commenced.
Ground training included aerodynamics, astronavigation, meteorology, propulsion and many other disciplines. Flying training commenced after fifteen weeks, initially on De Havilland Chipmunk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Chipmunk) aircraft, progressing to twin engine experience on Piper Apaches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Apache). A graduate would leave the college with a British commercial pilot's licence and a "frozen" airline transport pilot's licence, which could be converted into a full ATPL after further examinations and having accumulated the requisite flying hours.

So this system has been going since 1960 - that's 53YEARS AGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! :(:ok:

Do you bleaters/moaners still believe the ab-inito system is un-safe ?
Do a google search and list the number of incidents/accidents that the root cause has been attributed to a CADET/Ab-inito pilot.
AND - then do a little history search - on 19yr old B17 Capts who with ONLY 300hrs TT flew their B17s - with full crew across the Atlantic - in winter, at NIGHT to Ireland or Scotland, then continued onto bombing operations.
Remember, today's generation of ab-initio pilots have the benefit of the last 65yrs of aviation evolution in navigation facilities, instrumentation and safety, AND the study of accidents that have identified weaknesses of the past and have made today's aviation operations more safe.

Ciao

The Kelpie

7th Jun 2013, 10:32

Hey beau

Your point is valid but this is not the only point being made by this thread.

I acknowledge that there seems to be a place in aviation for cadets but not to the extent that this becomes wholesale like it is becoming here in OZ.

The increased interest in pilot training by Australian Citizens and Humanitarian Visa holders as a direct result of making it more feasible by accessing VETFEE Help has driven up the costs of training by at least 50% since VETFEE HELP was made available a couple of years ago. In some cases (Jetstar) the increase is nearer to 100%.

What makes this wrong is that the training providers have jumped straight in to filter as much of this new revenue stream in their direction telling naive individuals whatever they want to hear to ensure that they get a signature and access to the cash!

I believe training providers are even running 'road shows' nationwide to net as much of the cash as possible. This is big business!!

What they do, and what they are offerring is not compliant with the laws of Australia but they don't care!!

They are just grabbing as much of this government cash as they can, while they can before the Government catches on that they are in breach of the law and put a stop to it given the are complicit with the whole thing!!

Essentially the Training Providers offer a Cadetship type course, sometimes reinforced by reference to its airline contacts, possibly with the impression that they can 'put a word in for you' and full of promise but the reality is that there is no job at the end.

ADVICE: GUYS THIS INDUSTRY IS NOT THAT EASY!!!!!!!

Gonna be a lot of disappointed individuals at the end of their course when they have a **** load of debt and when checking out the job pages realise that they are not qualified for any of the relatively few flying jobs listed. I don't see airlines reducing their minimums anytime soon!!

There is no pilot shortage in this country neither will there be. Any shortage will always be managed by skilled migration. You don't have to wait and see, it is happening now and there is no shortage just perhaps a skills gap!!

The industry in Europe demonstrates this. In Europe there seems to be more graduated cadets than positions and many positions that are available are casual in nature and many of those in the cold or clinging onto a few hours each month are drowning in a sea of debt and repayments.

Cadetships use to be just that, a firm commitment between an airline and a talented individual and were reserved for the chosen few talented ones. Not any more they are just as I say "designer courses" but in the end they don't make you any more qualified than the next guy.

Your argument focuses on the ability of an ab-initio cadet to act as a first officer on high capacity RPT multi- crew operations. Some will have the necessary aptitude and skills but most will not.

The practice of all Aviation employers in this country, Government included specifying high minimums for 'entry level' first officer positions perhaps suggests that they do not agree with you. Despite the wider government view that high minimums are necessary on their own contracts their own aviation specialist department CASA certainly seems to support your argument, or alternatively is powerless and/or gutless to do anything about it.

Good for Thought

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Jack Ranga

7th Jun 2013, 12:07

Beau meister,

Thought we were talking of supply & demand? You were talking of under supply & the Jetstar cadetship was trying to supply pilots for an undersupply that is not really an undersupply because there is an oversupply of qualified pilots (I can point you in the direction of a few).

So, I think you're talking chalk when this thread is about cheese?

Kelly Slater

7th Jun 2013, 12:13

The Hamble pilots didn't pay.
Airforce Cadets don't pay.
Police Cadets don't pay.
Cadet schemes in general do not charge their Cadets.
The current schemes run by airlines have no right to be called Cadet programs.
Find a new name for these schemes.

The Kelpie

7th Jun 2013, 13:29

Royal Victorian Aero Club = the only honest VETFEE approved training providers in the room!!!

All by the book!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Captain Nomad

8th Jun 2013, 12:19

Beau Joker,

Two points about these 'new' vs the traditional 'cadetships:'

1/ Traditionally the trainee would often be put into a second officer role which offers a different learning curve than straight into first officer on short sector domestic operations.

2/ Financial cost structure. Cost burden used to lie with the employer not with the employee. This usually results in a higher quality of training and quality of candidate also.

If you keep doing your history research you will find that not all young pilots doing their best for their country under extreme circumstances had good outcomes. Many lives were lost and to suggest that a wartime system which did have an 'attrition' rate is acceptable in a modern airline world is absurd. It is not a valid comparison.

There would be a lot less backlash about this system if it could be proven it is actually 'needed' on a supply/demand basis and if it wasn't so apparent that it is a tool for making money at the cost of the cockpit crew and potential overall safety. Accountants do not have a formula for attributing value to experience and therefore a fresh cadet and an experienced pilot both checked to line are exactly the same to those running the numbers.

peterc005

8th Jun 2013, 12:41

I've known a few Jetstar cadets over the years, and recently met a small group who had just finished at OAA Moorabbin and were waiting to go to the UK for their A320 Type Ratings.

While they complained a bit about OAA being a bit disorganised, they seemed very positive about the outcome.

My understanding is that for the first year they go on some type of "flex-contract", where they are more casual than full-time permanent.

They did mention that they thought the Virgin cadetship looked more attractive, but this seems to mainly be because Virgin took more of an interest during their flight training than Jetstar did. It was little things, such as being invited to the Virgin AGM and Richard Branson going for a flight with a Virgin cadet who had just passed GFPT.

The Jetstar cadetship is probably a good option and here is why:

* No matter which option you take, pilot training to airline standard will cost a heap, it's just the the Jetstar cadetship via OAA is a premium price.

* My guess is that the premium price the student pays is less than $50,000.

* The salary differential between a junior GA CPL pilot and a Jetstar FO is maybe $20,000 in the first year and $50,000 in the second year. Taking the GA route into the airlines will take several years. Going the Jetstar cadetship route will thus give you a payback in between one and two years.

* the Jetstar cadets will get into the seniority list years earlier than those going the GA route, which means they will get the benefit of much higher salaries much earlier, earning more over their careers.

* for many pilots making the jump from GA to the airlines is somewhere from difficult to impossible, so having the guaranteed airline seat at the end of your training is probably worth the $50,000 by itself.

From discussions it was apparent that 16 cadets started the recent Jetstar OAA course at Moorabbin and 15 complete their training and are atarting at Jetstar. It's a much more sure route than starting in GA as a G3 instructor doing circuits in on C152s .

deadcut

8th Jun 2013, 13:28

Now Peter if they have such a good deal then how do you explain what I have below.

imgur: the simple image sharer (http://imgur.com/aR7YBm0)

Now I got this story from another website that is not associated with pprune or professional pilots. The thread was basically asking about lifestyle of airline pilots. This chap chimed in. I couldn't copy and paste the text since I'm on a tablet but the image will do.

Through a method of deduction it was easy to figure out that he or she was flying a320s in Australia and since they are a cadet they are flying for jetstar.
If the cadets are so well paid then why does the poster paint such a grim picture? It's all good and well if you have your parents pony up the cash but self funding is another matter.

peterc005

8th Jun 2013, 16:01

One problem for all integrated courses is that HECS of FEE HELP is limited to $96,000 (from memory). Not many students seem to get thru the integrated courses in the minimum curriculum times, and I've known a few to need an extra $30,000.

My son did his PPL as a medium-sized GA school, which I paid for. This got him into an integrated uni course and means he should be able to finish his CPL, MECIR, Instructor Rating and ATPL theory within the $96,000. This is good for me because it takes a lot of financial pressure off me.

I've been very impressed with the integrated uni aviation course he is doing, but I think the Jetstar cadetship would also be a good option.

Part of the Low Cost Carrier model (such as Ryanair and and Ezyjet) seem to include the same type of pilot cadetship that Jetstar are now offering. At least here we have FEE-HELP/HECS, which saves the parents having to mortgage their house.

Kelly Slater

9th Jun 2013, 00:07

$96,000 more than was on offer when I learnt to fly.

mcgrath50

9th Jun 2013, 00:32

Royal Victorian Aero Club = the only honest VETFEE approved training providers in the room!!!

All by the book!

Kelpie, they put the price of their MECIR up by quite a bit when they got fee-help, surely it can't all be to cover the extra admin cost can it?

Peter,

I have said this before to you, some of the guys got a dream run through OAA, straight to England, pushed through line training and thanks to the union work on a ok contract. There are others who were one the same course who are over a year behind due to a backlog in the type rating and line training. There are also a number of guys who got booted from the course at OAA and while their motivation was a factor, very little was done to support them.

It can work but it's a gamble just like GA. There are great stories and terrible ones from both, GA costs a lot less and gives you some amazing life experience that the guys plugged straight into jets on the east coast don't get.

The Kelpie

9th Jun 2013, 01:20

Kelpie, they put the price of their MECIR up by quite a bit when they got fee-help, surely it can't all be to cover the extra admin cost can it?

Nothing in the law, rules or guidelines to stop that and to be honest the government have openly said they are not interested as this will be self regulated by competition between training providers. So, whilst unfavourable and unfortunate they are not actually doing anything wrong. When we start seeing evidence of collusion and cartelling between the training providers that would be the time for the government to step in.

There are risks to both the student and training provider in offering VETFEE funding so I guess their way of managing that is to jack up the cost a little and allow something for the increased administrative burden.

More to follow

The kelpie

mcgrath50

9th Jun 2013, 05:44

They went from charging a normal GA MECIR price to an OAA price. It didn't so much create competition as a duopoly but that could be because RVAC are the only GA flying school in Melbourne with fee-help at the moment. Hopefully competition will bring down the prices are more get approved.

The Kelpie

9th Jun 2013, 06:30

I hope so McGrath.

OAA have a lot to answer for bringing European Flight Training costs (approx GBP75k for an integrated course) to Australia using an exchange rate of GBP0.36 to the AU$. The situation now is so different!!

Since then flight training costs have sky-rocketed because other schools could see that individuals were prepared to pay it - especially when using Government money!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

FLGOFF

23rd Jun 2013, 04:48

27/09

23rd Jun 2013, 08:13

Assuming you earn 70k+ you could pay that back in a few years easily.

Depending of course on where you are based and your other commitments.

The Kelpie

23rd Jun 2013, 11:19

But as a cadet, you will have to deduct $15k+ per year paying off the training costs. And you will be on the junior first officer salary for 2 years too (assuming the previous comments are true).

In the ab-initio program, Jetstar doesn't fund that much, most of it would be put on fee-help. Assuming you earn 70k+ you could pay that back in a few years easily.

Incorrect.

Once a cadet completes the an-initio course thus expending their entire FEEHELP they must do the Advanced element also which costs another $85k. Jet star finance this over six years but it is written in the bond agreement that Jetstar can increase this amount in its sole discretion.

So.....on a flexiline wage of approx $56k per annum you not only have to pay your 110k VETFEE debt off but you also have to pay $14k back to Jetstar each year.

$56k minus VETFEE repayments minus Jetstar repayments equals NOT MUCH LEFT!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Kelly Slater

23rd Jun 2013, 13:39

"Cadetship" makes this scheme seem legitimate. It is not a Cadetship, it is a scheme for a company to take advantage of prospective pilots. This company has no interest in the career of its victims.

27/09

24th Jun 2013, 10:41

"Cadetship" makes this scheme seem legitimate. It is not a Cadetship, it is a scheme for a company to take advantage of prospective pilots. This company has no interest in the career of its victims.

Cadetship = the new Indentureship

Kelly Slater

25th Jun 2013, 03:03

Tradesmen are or were indentured. You or your guardian signed to say that you would work for a set period of time, usually four years, for apprentice wages. These wages were a percentage of tradesman wages and increased each year. In return for your indenture, the company provided everything, tools, work clothes and paid for the apprentice to attend trade school. At no time was the apprentice ever asked to put his hand in his pocket. The apprentice could not belong to a union or go on strike. He could not leave his employer nor could he be sacked without mutual agreement and sitting before a Government tribunal.
Airlines want it both ways. They want to treat their so called cadets as apprentices whilst making them pay for the privilege.

peterc005

25th Jun 2013, 03:24

pilotchute

25th Jun 2013, 04:23

Yeah Pete,

They are going to tell a stranger that the path they took is going to cost them a fortune more than doing it by the more tried and tested way. They are also going to tell you that Jetstar is paying them way less than a direct entry FO and still have to pay off a huge debt. Or maybe they haven't realised yet that they have been taken advantage of. They will eventually though.

I assume they also let you know that in the Jetstar ranks they aren't very popular with alot of people for various reasons. The cadet that selected flaps up during a go around I suspect is a very popular guy. I have it from the horses mouth that cadets get extra sims because of the appalling stats they have on crap landings.

I'm trying to imagine the cockpit conversation between senior capt and cadet FO.

Capt "what do you do outside of flying young man/lady?"

FO "I Like playing xbox and checking my friends status updates on facebook"

Silence until TOD.

I have no problem with cadetships as long as they aren't designed as a revenue stream/cost saveing measure which this one clearly is.

peterc005

25th Jun 2013, 05:27

I can't see how Jetstar could use the cadetships to raise revenue?

The money goes to CAE/OAA/Swinburne, not Jetstar.

Well, you just sound like a jaded GA pilot.

A couple of months ago I met four Jetstar cadets who had just finished their OAA training and were waiting for slots in the CAE A320 simulator in the UK. They went straight from Seminoles to the A320. This must be appalling to a GA pilot who might struggle for years making poor money in old planes, hoping for the chance in an airline.

DH164

25th Jun 2013, 06:15

If cadets are so good why dont they get paid what a direct entry FO gets?

j3pipercub

25th Jun 2013, 06:54

Peter, are you really 48?

VH-FTS

25th Jun 2013, 07:07

As I've said on another thread, Peter005 is the most inexperienced aviation 'expert' on these forums. His opinions are biased towards what involves his son. Just check out all of the RMIT threads.

I'd block him but I find it funny.

Agrajag

25th Jun 2013, 07:08

Over the past couple of years I've met about a dozen current or former Jetstar Cadets.

They all seems pretty enthusiastic and motivated.

The two complaints I heard were:

* OAA was a bit disorganised about the flying, and the cadets had to compensate for this by being a bit more motivated and pushing harder to get the training done.

* There was little or none contact between Jetstar and the cadets during the training.

Overall they were happy, although a couple thought the Virgin cadetship sounded better.

Cadetships are here to stay and will grow. Excuse me peterc005, but aren't you the same gentleman who has already been sprung on another thread, making specious claims about the virtues of one of the training providers who benefit from these schemes?

I note no mention of the financial impost to these starry-eyed youngsters who are duped into this path to an airline.

Tell you what: I'll accept the existence of this as an alternative path to what many see as the ultimate goal, if you & others stop referring to it as a "cadetship." As has been pointed out in another post, the term implies a financial commitment on the part of the prospective employer, instead of the cost being entirely borne by the trainee. It's a fine piece of doublespeak which conceals the true nature of the arrangement, thereby seeking to legitimise it.

If the system had transparency and merit, those who promote it wouldn't need to misrepresent it.

peterc005

25th Jun 2013, 07:42

DancingDog

25th Jun 2013, 07:52

Peter,
You are a troll.
Myself and many others on here know who you really are, so if I was you I'd limit the crap you post. :rolleyes:
Mods!?

Agrajag

25th Jun 2013, 08:07

I've met a dozen current and former Jetstar cadets.

None suggested that anything significant was misrepresented.

Any gripes they had are probably due to minor mismanagement, rather than misrepresentation.

My recollection was that 16 started the OAA course last year, and that 15 completed the training, and are now soon to start their A320 TR to fly for Jetstar.

Sounds like this is what they signed up for and pretty much what they got.
That's not the misrepresentation to which I referred, as I suspect you well know.

I'm talking about the simple, deliberate corruption of the English language, in order to make something appear to be what it's not.

If you or the illustrious employer can come up with a word which accurately describes this system of trainee-funded recruitment, your defence might have some weight. (Hint: "cadetship" ain't it.)
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=7908731) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7908731&noquote=1)

pull-up-terrain

25th Jun 2013, 10:32

I can't see how Jetstar could use the cadetships to raise revenue?

The money goes to CAE/OAA/Swinburne, not Jetstar.

Even if jetstar aren't making money off them, they get a cheap source of pilots as they are able to pay them on the junior first officer salary for a couple of years (if what a poster a few pages back is correct. I still need to call the union to find out the real facts).

But the training for a jetstar first officer costs $180k+ once you factor in the type rating and accommodation costs. Then you start off on $56k as a junior first officer... Before you start having to pay the debt off...

I know if I had a business and invested $150k+, I would hope for a return much better than $56k in my first year even after repaying the loan cost.

peterc005

25th Jun 2013, 10:34

I stand by what I posted.

The "cadetship" gives young pilots guided training and fast track into a career at Jetstar. My opinion is that this pretty much qualifies for the description of "cadetship".

The money goes to OAA and I can't see how how Jetstar are trying to take advantage of anyone.

From what I can see, the Jetstar cadetship seems to deliver pretty much what it promises.

Who I am is no big secret. If anyone wanted to know they just need to PM me.

biggles7374

25th Jun 2013, 10:34

Bump............

pull-up-terrain

25th Jun 2013, 10:44

The money goes to OAA and I can't see how how Jetstar are trying to take advantage of anyone..

Have you ever looked at the eba's of every airline in Australia and compared a jetstar a320 junior first officer salary to the salary of pilots at every every other airline that fly jet aircraft? It is absolutely peanuts for a pilot of a jet aircraft.

If jetsar paid its cadet pilots on a level 1 first officer salary and after 12 months they could be promoted to a level 2 fo (like what happens to direct entry pilots), it would be reasonable, but sticking it out on a junior first officer salary for a couple of years before being promoted to a level 1 first officer salary is just screwing over cadet pilots big time.

pull-up-terrain

25th Jun 2013, 10:52

.The "cadetship" gives young pilots guided training and fast track into a career at Jetstar. My opinion is that this pretty much qualifies for the description of "cadetship".

If you look at cadetships they offer to people while they study at university, you will find that the company pays for the training... Well that's the way they do it for every cadetship I have ever heard of offered at university.

I wouldn't it be calling it a "cadetship", you are pretty much "buying a job".

Agrajag

25th Jun 2013, 12:09

I stand by what I posted.
Then you are being obtuse.
The "cadetship" gives young pilots guided training and fast track into a career at Jetstar. My opinion is that this pretty much qualifies for the description of "cadetship".
Only by the new, convenient interpretation of the word, apparently unique to the Brave New World of aviation in the 21st century.

Weasel words such as "guided training" and "fast track" only attempt to camouflage the program from what it really is: a means of placing the cheapest, least experienced pilots the law will allow as second-in-command of an airline jet. And doing so with no investment, financial or otherwise, in the welfare of that pilot. Instead, he or she is hit with an over-the-odds upfront cost, no guarantee of a job, and a substandard salary if that job does eventuate.

The money goes to OAA and I can't see how how Jetstar are trying to take advantage of anyone.

From what I can see, the Jetstar cadetship seems to deliver pretty much what it promises.In that case I can only conclude that what you can see is deliberately obscured. That or, even less defensible, you are attempting to mislead. Whom, I don't know. But no-one here is buying it.

peterc005

25th Jun 2013, 12:10

Virgin and in the past Qantas have also offered "cadetships". Very similar to the Jetstar Cadetship.

From memory, there were 1,000 applications for each Jetstar cadetship. Whatever you say they will continue to be popular.

Agrajag

25th Jun 2013, 12:39

Virgin and in the past Qantas have also offered "cadetships". Very similar to the Jetstar Cadetship.And you continue to evade my original point, which was that the scheme is misrepresented by all its proponents, simply by giving it a misleading title.

From memory, there were 1,000 applications for each Jetstar cadetship. Whatever you say they will continue to be popularYou seem to be well-informed as to the numbers, and highly defensive of the worth of the concept.

One might even say, unusually so, given your rather tenuous connection to it, as merely the father of someone not even in the JQ/OAA program, but at RMIT instead.

The Kelpie

25th Jun 2013, 12:44

Originally Posted by peterc005
I've met a dozen current and former Jetstar cadets.

None suggested that anything significant was misrepresented.

Any gripes they had are probably due to minor mismanagement, rather than misrepresentation.

My recollection was that 16 started the OAA course last year, and that 15 completed the training, and are now soon to start their A320 TR to fly for Jetstar.

Sounds like this is what they signed up for and pretty much what they got.

Well if you knew as much about the scheme as you suggest you would know that the a320 endorsement is part of the course. At this stage there is no whiff of a job.

The employment offer comes later. You hope!!!

Regards how Jetstar make money. The devil is in the detail. The 85k (increased at Jetstar's discretion) for the advanced course is what the cadets owe Jetstar as the bond agreement is between Jetstar and the cadet. It just so happens that the figure that Jetstar pay Oxford to supply the advanced course including A320 endo is not 85k, it is much less!!!

More to follow

The kelpie

pull-up-terrain

25th Jun 2013, 12:54

.Virgin and in the past Qantas have also offered "cadetships". Very similar to the Jetstar Cadetship.

Virgin pays for your training, they pay you while you train, they pay for your accommodation.

Qantas cadetship you eventually become a second officer and earn the same income as the direct entry pilots (the way the jetstar cadetship should be). Sure, you have to pay for the cadetship like the jetstar cadetship, but at least qantas pay cadets at the same rates as direct entry pilots.

Jetstar does neither, you pay for your training, and start off on a junior first officer salary which is $30k less than a level 1 direct entry first officer (and that's before paying off the huge $150k+ training debt). It's not fair on the cadets at all.

Captain Dart

26th Jun 2013, 00:16

'Quote of the Year' on another thread:

'It's no longer a case of, "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys"; now the monkeys bring their own peanuts'.

PlaneWhisperer

26th Jun 2013, 05:40

I still find peterc005's posts intriguing, especially regarding RMIT a little while ago, such as promoting that to possible instructors....

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/514589-acs-i-assume-rmit-flight-training.html

27/09

26th Jun 2013, 11:03

Kelly I was thinking of the "Indian Indentureship"

Check it out here.

What is Indian Indenture Ship (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Indian_Indenture_Ship)

I think the "cadetships" have a few similarities.

Kelly Slater

27th Jun 2013, 01:25

I can see the resemblance.

Flyboat North

27th Jun 2013, 03:35

No company loan repayments until 3rd year.

Salary is base 58/60 first two years,then onto regular contract base at least 90K.

Add twenty % to base at least, third fourth years well over $100K - bye bye training debt

Don't believe call S Lutton at AFAP on 03 9928 5737,

The angst is the reality that right now there is very very little employment of Jet RPT FOs in Aust , almost certain to stay that way for long time.

Each cadet takes away one direct entry place.

Where do ADF pilots leaving services go ? Cobhams , FIFO - that would all be a pay drop wouldn't it. Any go direct to Middle East ?

travelator

27th Jun 2013, 04:16

I have asked this before with zero response from those spruiking the benefits if this "cadetship".

In order to be employed by Jetstar as anything other than a junior FO and therefore eligible to earn these $100k+ salaries, the pilot must hold an ATPL. The pilot must hold a minimum of 250 hours PIC or 500 ICUS, therefore, the cadet must be provided at least 500 hours ICUS in order to gain an ATPL. Is Jetstar doing this?

Flyboat North

27th Jun 2013, 05:41

Not true : you move to the standard FO tables after you achieve an ATPL or two years whichever comes first.

So the maximum amount of time as a Junior FO is two years, and then you move to standard FO salary - CPL or ATPL. Again don't take my word for it call Simon Lutton from your own federation.

The "no command time" - career FO you will remain view on these cadetships is just a red herring. Qantas upgraded cadets , gave them command time , Jetstar has all those approvals - let's face they are Qantas. Rex is upgrading cadets, as has Qlink who still has Q cadets & people from their own traineeship.

So the "not enough command time" line is cute, but does not reflect reality.

The issue people have is one more cadet is one less direct entry place

27/09

27th Jun 2013, 06:05

The issue people have is one more cadet is one less direct entry place

Correct. Can someone remind me why there is a need for cadets?

travelator

27th Jun 2013, 06:07

you move to the standard FO tables after you achieve an ATPL or two years whichever comes first.

Ok, where is that written? Can't see any reference in thier EBA. Although the one I found was 2008 and it may have been superseded. Please don't quote any flying school brochures because if it ain't in the employment contract then it isn't worth the glossy paper it's printed on.

This is purely a pay for a front seat scheme, not a cadetship. We are a few years behind the UK with these schemes but they are inevitable.

Each cadet takes away one direct entry place.
Not sure why you guys keep gloating about this?

Username here

27th Jun 2013, 07:34

Where do ADF pilots leaving services go ?

Good question!

Anyone know?

travelator

28th Jun 2013, 06:37

Bueller, Bueller. Anyone?

Flyboat North

29th Jun 2013, 05:23

It is not written in a 2008 document because the cadet program did not start until 2010.

But clearly it would be written down somewhere, just call S Lutton from the AFAP if you want it in writing - they did the deal with the Airline.

By saying one cadet means one less direct entry pilot , really just stating a fact not gloating, always difficult to determine tone from the written. Like most pax I just want well trained people in cockpit don't care what background.

The reality I think is that the prospects for GA/Regional to progress to jet RPT in Australia must be remote. How many DE pilots have Virgin / Jetstar hired over past 18 months ? - I would think very few. Cobhams and the other Jet FIFOs really the only possiblities - maybe taken 50 to 80 over past 18 months.

Not a lot when you consider the number of experienced turboprop pilots in Aust/NZ

pull-up-terrain

29th Jun 2013, 06:14

.By saying one cadet means one less direct entry pilot , really just stating a fact not gloating, always difficult to determine tone from the written. Like most pax I just want well trained people in cockpit don't care what background.

Just talking to some of my pilot friends who are working at jetstar while on lwop from qantas, the cadets are struggling to make the appropriate standards. If there is a need to allocate cadets extra simulator time and you here the story of the cadet that raised the flaps when doing a go around and the cadet selecting the wrong flap setting on approach you would think surely a pilot that has previously been flying a turbo prop for a regional airline wouldn't make such silly mistakes and require extra simulator sessions.

But if cadets pilots are meeting the minimum safety standards, why aren't they being paid at the same rate as there direct entry colleagues? Because $30k difference in salary is a huge difference.

Flyboat North

29th Jun 2013, 07:10

All the various conspiracy theories about Jetstar making money are simply incorrect. In fact the program costs the company money as they get more line training, mentored program over 18 months, and have to be based in Syd/Mel/Brisbane where the training resources are. Also more sims , line checks in that 18 month mentored period.

So I think a lot of people might think well the company has all these extra training costs etc, likely insurance costs, so for the first two years a junior FO wage is appropriate. Junior FO rates isn't a new idea, even Virgin do it.

Keep in mind the training course is 18 months, half the length of the shortest Uni degree(average start salary $55k) So I think many people would think that a 17 year old year 12 leaver who does an 18 month training course , 50% shorter than his Uni destined cohorts then gets paid 30% more than them - well it really doesn't look so bad.

Interesting the different stories - I have heard to date all have successfully checked to line. New idea so it will take a while to fine tune it.

Let's face it the GA/Regional background pilots at Tiger didn't exactly cover themselves in glory with their airmanship and flying standards

Qantas cadets - hard to see how they cost the company any extra $$.

morno

29th Jun 2013, 08:07

Let's face it the GA/Regional background pilots at Tiger didn't exactly cover themselves in glory with their airmanship and flying standards

Really? Sure about that? Please do back all of that up with facts. Otherwise, I'd suggest retracting that comment.

morno

travelator

29th Jun 2013, 11:42

It is not written in a 2008 document because the cadet program did not start until 2010.
So, unless there is a new EBA or they are on special contracts, they are classed as junior FOs and paid accordingly until an ATPL is gained.

But clearly it would be written down somewhere
Nah, that's good enough for me. Where can I sign?

Jack Ranga

29th Jun 2013, 13:31

Fly boat norths posts are the best on this thread so far. It's great to see an Australian company investing in this country's youth :ok: Knowing that it actually costs Jetstar money to train these cadets yet they persist. Thank you Jetstar :D you've restored my faith in the Australian aviation industry. You could employ pilots that have built command experience in some pretty variable weather conditions etc, but as a company that embodies values, ethics, morals and just plain old honesty I value your judgement. Thankyou for sacrificing profits for our safety & well being :ok:

Flyboat North

30th Jun 2013, 04:54

I am not interested in a long debate about the junior FO rates , but the fact is that the cadets are only on them for a maximum of two years. That can be confirmed by your own pilot union or the company itself or the cadets themselves. Some who joined the advanced program already had 600 hours or so, and so were able to gain an ATPL in less than two years - so moved off the junior FO onto the standard pay scales immediately.

Jack a nice post but I am thinking maybe a little tongue in cheek perhaps. I think clearly there would be some very proud parents who agree with all your words. They would be very proud of their Sons/Daughters who have just turned 20 and are checked to line as Jetstar A320 FOs , knowing also that without the funding mechanisms arranged by the company it could not have been done.

pull-up-terrain

30th Jun 2013, 05:43

Flyboat North

I had a chat to a pilot who is very high up at aipa at work this morning. It is true that a Junior First Officer goes from junior fo to level 2 fo. But he wasn't aware of the maximum of 2 years as a junior fo... Could you copy and paste the reference to that source? Because we did flick through the current eBa and couldn't see anything about being a junior fo for 2 years max. It just said that you are a junior fo until you hold a complete atpl. He is going to get back to me on it though as he just departed on a long haul flight earlier today.

Flyboat North

30th Jun 2013, 05:55

pull-up-terrain

30th Jun 2013, 06:10

I take it fly boat north you are some sort of salesman or have something to do with working for Oxford aviation?

I'm going to try and contact Simon tomorrow, but are you not confusing that flexi contract with the eBa?

27/09

30th Jun 2013, 07:31

Flying Boat North

Can you remind us why there is a need for the cadet schemes?

The Kelpie

30th Jun 2013, 10:19

It was AFAP industrial officer Simon Lutton who did the deal with Jetstar , he has been at AFAP for a long time and can be contacted on 03 9928 5737. AFAP will also confirm that the company loan for training - that repayments do not begin until the third year - by which stage cadets have progressed to standard FO rates.

The other option is is just to call/write the company ask to speak to pilot recruitment and they will confirm it for you. It is very much publicly available information and told to the cadets at information nights etc.

Ph 61 3 8628 3418 Fax: 61 3 8660 2865
Pilot Recruitment
Level 4, 222 Bourke Street/ Melbourne / 3000
[email protected]

Perhaps when you call Simon he could provide you with an explanation of the following which he failed to consider when he was cosying up with Jetstar Management and they conned him into dropping the federal court action on Group contracts being run by the AFAP.

1. Full time Award Salary in 2011 for Narrow Body with additions to salary for turbojet and instrument rating $87,000

2. EBA salary for junior first officer under pre-2011 EBA $57,118 (based on full credit hours which is incidentally is pro rated under Flexi-line)

3. Fair work transitional provisions state that:

224 Fair Work (Transitional Provisions and Consequential Amendments) Act 2009

Part 4—Universal application of minimum wages to employees: transitional instruments

13 Base rate of pay under agreement-based transitional instrument must not be less than the modern award rate or the national minimum wage order rate etc.

If employee is covered by a modern award that is in operation

(1) If, on or after the FW (safety net provisions) commencement day:

(a) an agreement-based transitional instrument applies to an employee; and

(b) a modern award that is in operation covers the employee;

the base rate of pay payable to the employee under the transitional instrument (the instrument rate) must not be less than the base rate of pay that would be payable to the employee under the modern award (the award rate) if the modern award applied to the employee.

(2) If the instrument rate is less than the award rate, the transitional instrument has effect in relation to the employee as if the instrument rate were equal to the award rate.

Even though Jetstar has an EBA, because it was in existence before the FWA it becomes a transitional instrument and the pay cannot be less than would be due under the award. The Award does not recognise Junior First Officers.

A cadet would be paid $87,000 under the award and their payment under the EBA should be no less.

Ask Simon to explain that one!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

FLGOFF

12th Jul 2013, 00:22

Once a cadet completes the an-initio course thus expending their entire FEEHELP they must do the Advanced element also which costs another $85k. Jet star finance this over six years but it is written in the bond agreement that Jetstar can increase this amount in its sole discretion.

So.....on a flexiline wage of approx $56k per annum you not only have to pay your 110k VETFEE debt off but you also have to pay $14k back to Jetstar each year.

$56k minus VETFEE repayments minus Jetstar repayments equals NOT MUCH LEFT!!!

Here's what I know.

The FEE-HELP loan limit is around $93k, it fluctuates yearly, but has never been $110k for this, so I don't know where that figure comes from. The advanced element is known as phase 2, where you will undertake an A320 type rating. The amount is between $30k-$40k fully funded by Jetstar which is paid back to them via a salary sacrifice. So again, I don't know where your figure of an additional $85k comes from.

From what I know, yes unfortunately you can expect to wait an unknown amount of time between phase 1 and phase 2. However there is not a huge backlog like some people have been stating here.

You seem to think you know a lot about the topic, I'm just referring to what those at JetStar and CAE Oxford have told me. Perhaps you could link me to where you got this info from?

wing boy

11th Sep 2013, 09:22

Hi guys,

Does anyone know whether or not JQ will be running another cadet intake? i.e. March 2014.

Rumour has it they are considering cancelling the program due to the poor performance of some of the current cadets.

Any help would be great!

:cool:

pull-up-terrain

11th Sep 2013, 10:43

.Does anyone know whether or not JQ will be running another cadet intake? i.e. March 2014.

Rumour has it they are considering cancelling the program due to the poor performance of some of the current cadets.

I don't know anything about this rumour, but if they were to stop the cadetship, it is probably because they have too many Qantas pilots on LWOP flying for jetstar that are taking up a lot of the jobs jetstar were intending to be filled by cadets.

the_rookie

11th Sep 2013, 12:40

I've heard this rumour wing boy, and that another flying organisation will get the gig if standards aren't picked up. Why can't jetstar see this as a sign and scrap it all together!!

peterc005

11th Sep 2013, 13:59

Speaking to some of the Jetstar cadets it appears the biggest problem is that OAA has become too big and disorganised. I also guess all of the ownership changes going from GFS to OAA to CAE in a few years wouldn't help.

Apparently the Jetstar cadets needed to be very motivated and organised to get the training resources they needed to complete the course. Some of the cadets would book half a dozen flights at a time a month in advance to ensure they could get planes and instructors.

Another problem appears to be they don't allocate set instructors to students, which makes the training a bit fragmented.

DH164

11th Sep 2013, 17:02

Stop posting peter. Thanks in advance.

peterc005

12th Sep 2013, 04:39

My post is based on experience and known facts.

If you have a problem with that, then too bad.

Snazzy101

19th Sep 2013, 19:43

Is it just for AUS passport holder's ?

pull-up-terrain

20th Sep 2013, 06:23

Is it just for AUS passport holder's ?

Yes, only for Australian passport holders.

Flyboat North

20th Sep 2013, 08:13

Open to Australian citizens , Australian Permanent Residents, New Zealand Citizens and New Zealand Permanent Residents

FLGOFF

25th Sep 2013, 01:09

There has been talks about cancelling the program and instead taking on people who are already undertaking the Swinburne Bachelor of Aviation course. I hope they don't, as the cadetship gave you some reassurance that you're going to have a career ready for you at the end of the course provided you're successful and pilot demand is still the same.

I would assume next year they will still hold the 2 courses (hopefully), but who knows really. I doubt they'll just announce that they're going to cancel it, they'll probably be more likely to do what Qantas did and just put the whole thing under review and not announce whether they'll start it up again in the future or not.

joprato

25th Sep 2013, 06:52

Well, i just read the previous posts and it seems normal that cadets would try to do that (booking half a dozen flights at a time to be sure to get planes and intructors...), didn't we all pretty much do the same thing in our flight school ? :p

After all, when it is our dream to become a pilot, don't we want to try to go as fast as possible thru the training program to be able to seat in a jet asap ?

good luck guys !:ok:

mcgrath50

25th Sep 2013, 09:21

The Moorabbin refueller tells me Oxford had a contract for a certain number of cadetships, I think 10. Once that's exhausted Jetstar will not be renewing.

FLGOFF

27th Sep 2013, 09:48

The Moorabbin refueller tells me Oxford had a contract for a certain number of cadetships, I think 10. Once that's exhausted Jetstar will not be renewing.

Since when is this? I was at Oxford just over a month ago and there was no talk of this.

peterc005

28th Sep 2013, 02:10

One problem with the OAA/CAE Jetstar Cadetship is that it as an Associate Degree run thru Swinburne TAFE.

The big OAA/Swinburne course is the Aviation Bachelors Degree run thru Swinburne Uni.

Swinburne had a separate Aviation TAFE department, but this appears to have closed the the students transferred across to RMIT at Point Cook. I guess some of the other Swinburne TAFE students transferred to the Swinburne Uni course.

This leaves the Jetstar Cadet course a bit of an orphan. I can't imagine Swinburne TAFE management is enthusiastic about keeping a department open for just ten students?

checked_and_set

28th Sep 2013, 02:24

JQ Cadets come under the umbrella of the University....not the Tafe.

FLGOFF

30th Sep 2013, 07:49

Yep. The JetStar Associate Degree is still under the university. It's in the uni's Engineering and Industrial Science faculty.

N5748E

1st Oct 2013, 23:41

It's under Swinburne. Unless you are under the Jetstar Asia cadet program, then that's a different story.

jackcelestino

2nd Dec 2013, 05:46

Hi everyone, I have applied for the Cadet intake for 2014 and have day 1 of skills assessments tomorrow. My question is: how much should I be expecting to earn during the 18 months of training? I've tried looking all over but can'tseem to find a legitimate answer.

Cheers

The Kelpie

2nd Dec 2013, 05:51

Hi jack

You are not employed by Jetstar during the 18 month training period and therefore you will not be paid.

Read the posts carefully - there are many graduates that are still waiting to commence employment.

More to follow

The kelpie

jackcelestino

2nd Dec 2013, 06:36

Thanks for the reply, so I must find a casual job ontop of studies to support myself whilst training in Melbourne...

the_rookie

2nd Dec 2013, 10:59

I'd advise you to do a bit more study before you jump into something like this.

27/09

4th Dec 2013, 01:59

My question is: how much should I be expecting to earn during the 18 months of training?

Another question you need to get actual figures on is: How much will I end up paying? These cost may be indirect as well as direct.

Don't expect any pay during your training.

BlackPrince77

13th Dec 2013, 00:46

You don't get paid for anything during the course by Jetstar or Oxford. You will need to find a way to pay for rent/food/living in general during the 17 months at Moorabbin. The course is tough, don't expect to find much spare time after studying to work. I'd have a fair amount of money saved up before starting the course just to help on the living side of things.

As far as course costing, FEEHELP which works like HECS, is a loan from the government which covers course costs up to a maximum of approx $90,000 per person (this amount increases by a couple thousand every year to cater for inflation). The total cost of training is approximately $120,000 for all the phase 1 stuff which is basically everything except the A320 endorsement (which is done overseas and payed for by Jetstar see below). So that means you will need to pay $30,000 to make up the total cost using the full amount from FEEHELP. This $30,000 Oxford will require you to pay over the period of 17 months training at Moorabbin, so its not one bit installment! They will require around $10,000 up front, which covers most of the text books, fuel drain, headset, aircraft manuals, checklists and some aircraft time 30hrs PIC etc. They will ask for further installments every 6 months or so. If you already have a headset and other things they give you, you can save yourself a decent amount of money by not purchasing them. They use Bob Tait PPL, CPL, IREX manuals and DAPS for instrument training, if you have current books of these you can save yourself almost $100 for each book.

The A320 endorsement costs $33,000 which is fully payed for up front by Jetstar, and salary sacrificed by yourself once you are employed by Jetstar during years 2 and 3 of your employment. (Your first year with Jetstar you don't pay anything back for the endorsement)

Your salary with Jetstar will be around $60,000 for your first year increasing to just under $100,000 from then onwards. That's why they don't deduct your endorsement cost during your first year, as your not earning that much...

So in summing up, the actual amount of money you'll need to pay from your pocket is around $30,000. The $90,000 FEEHELP is all payed by the government up front, and you'll pay that back over your working lifetime when you earn over a certain threshold which from memory is $48,000pa, again the threshold increases every year. The $33,000 endorsement is payed for up front by Jetstar so again you won't need to bear any costs from your own pocket initially until employed by them during years 2 and 3 with the company.

Hope this helps, happy flying :ok:

SammK

18th Dec 2013, 22:53

Hi all,
I am 15 years old and I'm interested in this Jetstar cadet program at Moorabin a few years after I leave school. I want a summary on the cadetship, pro's and con's, because every other thread on this topic turns into a brawl between the GA and the Jet people.
And incase you want to start whining over the bad salary or something, I'm not interested in the pay once you finish the course.

Here is what I have gathered:

Pros:
All training done in 18 months.
Most likely straight into the RHS of an a320 (but no guarantee)

Cons:
Cost
Interview fees?
Low chance of getting into the school in the first place

If there are any Jetstar cadets reading this, I would love to hear from you.

Thanks

tmpffisch

19th Dec 2013, 00:26

Oh dear :rolleyes:. The forum moderators will probably jump in here quickly and move this to an existing Jetstar Cadet discussion; there are many. They deteriorate into a cadet bashing argument very quickly. Regardless, this is posted in the wrong forum; it's not RPT rumour or news.

Sammk, I'd strongly recommend funding your flight training privately and working your way through GA. In the long run, the flight training will cost you half as much, and within 3-4 years you'll be back to sitting in the RHS of a A320 anyway; with MUCH more aviation experience, a far better understanding of the industry (rather than the rose-coloured glasses (some) cadets wear), a far wider network of friends in the industry, and the opportunity to travel and work in parts of this country you never thought you would; and all the great times that comes from it!

SpyderPig

19th Dec 2013, 00:34

Agree with all of the above. If you really want the info, start at the start of the jetcadet thread and work your way though. All the information is there, just hidden amongst the brawling.

VH-ABC

19th Dec 2013, 00:38

And incase you want to start whining over the bad salary or something, I'm not interested in the pay once you finish the course.

Don't sell yourself short... Or the rest of us that ARE interested in the salary.

peterc005

19th Dec 2013, 01:26

I've known about a dozen people who've done the Jetstar Cadetship in the past few years.

They were all generally positive about it, although a couple said they thought the Virgin Cadetship was better.

My understanding is that out of the last Jetstar course, nine started, one transferred to Virgin and seven went to London to do their A320 TR.

That's a pretty good pass rate, and while there is a lot of work to do in 18 months it's a relatively fast and reliable path to the airlines.

If I was a young person going thru today I'd do an integrated University-based course on HECS/HELP.

Anulus Filler

19th Dec 2013, 01:38

And incase you want to start whining over the bad salary or something, I'm not interested in the pay once you finish the course.

Yep. Precisely what they want to hear at an interview. Should slot nicely in to a left hand seat at J*. :rolleyes:

Mstr Caution

19th Dec 2013, 01:55

The known risk of doing a JQ cadetship are:

1. Qantas have excess pilots
2. There is an MOU for the exchange of career opportunities
3. If redundancies occur at Qantas & Jetstar are recruiting, Qantas pilots may fill those slots.
4. Alan Joyce states everything is on the table. JQ may or may not be sold. So the entity you thought you were getting into may not be the same entity you actually work for.

5. Why on earth are JQ running a cadetship when points 1, 2 & 3 above exist.

MC

DancingDog

19th Dec 2013, 05:03

FFS use your brain lad. Simply putting the key words "pprune jetstar cadetship" into google comes up with 5 existing threads full of info.

You'll care about the salary as soon as you stop living off your parents.

Do a bit of your own research and look up Shiny Jet Syndrome. You have a severe case.

ChaseIt

19th Dec 2013, 06:34

Couldn't agree more with tmpfficsh! Get into GA and experience all it has to offer. The shiny jet job will come in good time! :ok:

Wally Mk2

19th Dec 2013, 06:53

I think all you respondents thus far have missed the key word/s here from the OP, ......."in a few years after I leave school"............The kid is 15 & assuming he stays 'till 18 & then those few years in say 6 years time the whole mess we have now in the aviation game could be a lot different. Advice given now may well be useless.

'SammK' best advice I think is stay informed over the next few years, gather info along the way & not just from the few bitter & twisted that find their way here amongst these pages.
Read everything you can on aviation across the globe for we are not insulated won under in fact we are more exposed than ever these days to global changes where aviation is concerned.

Good luck try a bit of Pvt flying when you can along the way to see if it really is for you:ok:

Wmk2

SammK

19th Dec 2013, 06:57

Just as I thought this thread is going nowhere like all the others.
I'm not interested in discussing the GA path, all I wanted is if anyone could tell me if the Cadetship is an alright way to go because it sounds pretty good.

I should've put this in my original post:
I have researched going through GA, Universities and all the rest. I have about 10 possible ways for me to achieve my dream so far,
but only just came across the J* cadetship when I was talking to a FO on a trip to Melbourne.

But thanks peterc005 and Mstr Caution for the input :)

SammK

19th Dec 2013, 07:08

Thanks Wally,
I realise that everything could change in <10 years, but seeing that this cadetship has been going on for a while, I thought it might hold in for a few years, but after looking at 'Mstr cautions' info, maybe not.
But I plan to keep looking for different ways for the next 3 years, until I leave school.

As for the time being, I'm working on an RA-Aus licence in an A22ls, absolutely loving it. :ok:

Thanks

Capt Fathom

19th Dec 2013, 10:06

For someone who supposedly only joined Pprune yesterday, as a 15 yo, you have an amazing grasp of what goes on! :ugh:

because every other thread on this topic turns into a brawl between the GA and the Jet people.
And incase you want to start whining over the bad salary or something, I'm not interested in the pay once you finish the course.

Sorry... Make that join date today !!

NzCaptainAndrew

19th Dec 2013, 10:08

My advice is concentrate on NOW mate, do well at school, try do some flying when you are free, gliding etc etc...because when I was 15 I was doing the same thing. Concentrate on your academics and just try suck in as much life experience (such as social skills) as you can because when you finish high-school there will be 1000 others who are older and smarter than you.

KRUSTY 34

19th Dec 2013, 10:28

Wind-up alert! :)

tail wheel

19th Dec 2013, 10:35

I think so Krusty.

But if not, Post # 161 = Post # 1! :E

Damien1989

19th Dec 2013, 20:42

I don't necessarily think it's a bad way to go. If you don't have a great deal of interest in flying GA and experiencing variety of different flying, it's probably your best bet.

I chose to do the GA path but I have a friend who's done the Jetstar cadetship and it seems to be working out well for him. Salary wise, although I'm not entirely sure of the exact figures in the cadetship you start off on say 55k a year and after 18 months - 2 years you're on the same wage as a direct entry FO; 90K a year?? Compare this to myself having been in GA for 4 years now I'm still on less than the cadetship starting wage. However, I don't have any debts from flight training.

The other plus I see to it is you're employed to fly and that's all you do. There's a lot of jobs in GA that while you might do some flying, involve a great deal of "sh*t kicking" (character building ;) ) which probably wasn't what you had in mind when you decided to become a pilot.

skysook

19th Dec 2013, 21:34

My advice to anyone considering a career in aviation. Throw in an application to any airline cadetship you can. It will give you a massive head start in your career. You will be significantly advantaged over pilots that came through GA. Your seniority number in the company will be the key here. Also, the more jet time you have under your belt the better and more abundant the opportunities are for you when looking for work elsewhere. You might not have the "real" flying experience or have much of a character in the cockpit but who cares you've just saved yourself up to 10 years of your life getting to where you are now! I've been in the game for 7 years now with over 1000 hours in command of turboprop RPT and I can't even get a sniff from an airline like Jetstar. I only wish these cadetships existed when I was training! It's a golden opportunity so I say go for it or you'll forever be at the end of the queue...

27/09

19th Dec 2013, 22:21

You might not have the "real" flying experience or have much of a character in the cockpit but who cares
Those poor suckers who have the misfortune to sit on your left or right every day at work.

DH164

19th Dec 2013, 22:35

with over 1000 hours in command of turboprop RPT and I can't even get a sniff from an airline like Jetstar

Gee I wonder why, and you're advocating cadetships?

deadcut

20th Dec 2013, 03:35

You know these cadeships are looking more attractive after every day I spend in GA.

Not only do you get more money and better lifestyle but you won't have to deal with all this bullcrap in GA.

Look at it his way. You do your 18 months and then you are on the same wage that direct entry gets. You get to live in a major city and enjoy the lifestyle.

There is an ad on AFAP for a C208 pilot. You need 2000 hours, 500 IFR and 200 on type! Two thousand hours to fly a god damn single engine aircraft but wait there is a possibility that you might get a chance to fly their clapped out piston twins. But that's only for the right candidate. Bet the pricks won't pay a cent above award either and you have to live in some backwater sh*thole after spending 3-4 years trying to get 2000 hours.

Living the dream.

tmpffisch

20th Dec 2013, 03:46

Yeah, but spend 4 years in GA and you can be earning more than these cadets are as an FO at J*, whether that's in high paid GA jobs, or for another other A320 operator here in Aus.

travelator

20th Dec 2013, 04:10

Salary wise, although I'm not entirely sure of the exact figures in the cadetship you start off on say 55k a year and after 18 months - 2 years you're on the same wage as a direct entry FO
I have asked this before without response. Is this anywhere in the actual EBA or AWA or whatever contract that these cadets are employed under? When the scam/scheme started there was no provision for a cadet to earn the equivalent FO pay until they held an ATPL. ATPL requires a certain amount of command time and unless it was logged before entering, the only way to do this would be via ICUS. Very much an "out of the goodness of their hearts" gift from Jetstar.

Unless this is black and white in the contract then do it, otherwise I would be very wary. Don't simply believe what you have been told by flying schools or interview prep companies.

wishiwasupthere

20th Dec 2013, 06:52

Unless this is black and white in the contract then do it, otherwise I would be very wary. Don't simply believe what you have been told by flying schools or interview prep companies.

I don't advocate cadetships myself, but I know of someone who did the Jetstar cadetship and the pay situation was as Damien1989 described, pretty ordinary pay for the first 18 months or so (but still better than GA), then onto normal FO wage, regardless of holding an ATPL or not (but of course they would have their ATPL subjects). Regardless, I see cadetships in the future as just a big a stream if not bigger for airline entry as direct entry from GA and the military.

morno

20th Dec 2013, 07:03

but still better than GA

So what are these wages that Jetstar are paying? And what is your take home pay by the time you take out the repayments for the massive cost of doing the cadetship?

I'd like to compare them to GA wages myself.

I somehow think that GA would probably have you being better off than a Jetstar cadetship.

morno

pilotchute

20th Dec 2013, 07:13

Deadcut,

I know many people who started on the van sub 500 hours so don't take the ad the wrong way. This guy is trying to start RPT ops in his vans and needs people with high time on the van to get CASA approval (ASEPTA). But your right he won't pay a cent above award and can be somewhat difficult to work for hence the ad on AFAP almost every other week for drivers.

There are people flying jets who shouldn't be flying kites but that's the industry so like it or lump it.

27/09

20th Dec 2013, 07:13

mornoSo what are these wages that Jetstar are paying? And what is your take home pay by the time you take out the repayments for the massive cost of doing the cadetship?

I'd like to compare them to GA wages myself.

I somehow think that GA would probably have you being better off than a Jetstar cadetship.

morno

Come now Morno, you're introducing some facts and reality, you'll spoil a good story. :ok:

deadcut

20th Dec 2013, 08:05

Pilotchute

So you need 2k for a van while cadets with 250 hours fly a airliner?

morno

20th Dec 2013, 08:08

27/09,
Just as I suspected, :E.

Until someone can prove to me with facts and numbers that you really are better off as a Jetstar Cadet, then I will continue to believe you are much better off in GA.

Deadcut,
Perhaps those hours to fly a van are excessive, but let's keep in mind that the 250hr cadet is going to be sitting with a 5,000hr+ Captain.

morno

Boeingdream

20th Dec 2013, 08:27

Spent 2 years Instructing in Australia, before moving to Botswana to fly for 2 years. After that I flew in PNG for 10 months.

The experience has been amazing, but I am no closer to getting into the airlines, I am broke and the only jobs I can get are flying in some back country town with no social life and terrible pay.

To those aspiring pilots, go for the cadet programs.

SammK

20th Dec 2013, 08:43

Thanks everyone,
it seems that from all the replies if you get into GA, you will be stuck in GA.
Although I do want experience in regional flying etc. but cadetships look too good to be true.
I got myself into a J* a320 cockpit a few months ago and met a 24 year old guy that did this cadetship, and he said it was fantastic and that it was great fun.
Some are complaining about the pay, zero to hero in 18 months, what do you expect?

deadcut

20th Dec 2013, 08:56

Does anyone know what the ratio of direct entry vs cadets is anyway? Seems to me that line of progression is closed to the GA pilots.

Makes sense doesn't it. Paying pilots 40k less the first year or two. 100 first officers=400k savings. Why wouldn't they do it.

Advs

20th Dec 2013, 08:57

Currently JQ7 is running with two program intakes a year. Jetstar have only committed to 10. So not sure if Jetstar cadet programs will be around when this 15yo is old enough.

Capt Fathom

20th Dec 2013, 10:15

It's a bit hard to recommend one way or the other unless you have done both!

morno

20th Dec 2013, 11:13

it seems that from all the replies if you get into GA, you will be stuck in GA.

Very incorrect.

I've gone through GA, plus done a few other things along the way. Have had a ball, gained some valuable experience, seen the countryside, met many lifelong friends (including my wife), and now I'm off to the airlines. The social life in these 'back country towns' is perfectly fine if you're not a bore who doesn't mind socializing with others in a non-nightclub environment.

Everyone who I went through GA with is either in the airlines, or in some other sector of the industry that is of their choosing.

morno

j3pipercub

20th Dec 2013, 12:43

With those math skills deadcut, perhaps there are other reasons why you aren't in an airline. 40k less and '100 effos' is a bit more than 400k.

Also never heard a 15 year old ever use the term 'zero to hero'. Fishy. Sounds like someone having a stir to cure boredom or pushing a barrow.

j3

Ted Nugent

20th Dec 2013, 13:08

Does anyone know what the ratio of direct entry vs cadets is anyway? Seems to me that line of progression is closed to the GA pilots.

Since mid December 2012 give or take

Direct entry 48

Cadets 34

Ted

deadcut

20th Dec 2013, 13:26

Ha! J3 you are right. Although I wouldn't mind the plane doing all the calculating for me since I can't do it.

My bad but even better! Imagine what the KPI bonus from 4 mil savings will be!

Capt Fathom

20th Dec 2013, 19:00

Very fishy indeed J3.

Fortunately, our friend SammK is not getting many bites!

That aside, there have been some good points put forward.

T28D

20th Dec 2013, 21:45

My bad but even better!

God save me, North American Coloured language taking over, this is just lazy undesirable language that has no association with the English Language.

DH164

21st Dec 2013, 05:39

friends (including my wife)

Pick one. :E

Just stirring, you always roll into threads and put people in their place Morno!

Dawn Patrol

27th Feb 2014, 09:29

G'day all,

Just wondering if anyone has any ideas or thoughts on the future of the Jetstar Cadet Program at Swinbourne University considering the changes that have been announced by Alan Joyce today?

tmpffisch

27th Feb 2014, 10:29

Dawn, don't worry. The cadet scheme is a profitable revenue source for a Jetstar, they won't get rid of it. Cadets are good customers.

pull-up-terrain

27th Feb 2014, 11:13

Dawn Patrol
Just wondering if anyone has any ideas or thoughts on the future of the Jetstar Cadet Program at Swinbourne University considering the changes that have been announced by Alan Joyce today?

Just remember, jetstar doesn't guarantee a job upon completion of the cadet ship. If qantas has to get rid of a few hundred pilots in the coming years, the unions may make some sort of arrangement with Qantas management so that they can be given jobs at jetstar or given LWOP etc. If that's the case, jetstar will have to take on QF pilots before taking on jetstar cadet pilots.

peterc005

27th Feb 2014, 11:34

How does Jetstar make a profit from Cadets?

Money for training goes to OAA/CAE/Swinburne, not Jetstar.

The 30-odd grand for an A320 type rating goes to CAE/OAA in the UK.

I've met Jetstar cadets from four or five courses, and from what I can tell about 90% complete the training and I haven't heard of one to completed not getting a job.

The former cadets now flying for Jetstar regularly complain about OAA/Swinburne being a bit disorganised, but seem generally happy with the deal they got.

If you were a young guy keen on the airlines and got offered a similar cadetship you'd be mad not to jump at the opportunity.

Dawn Patrol

27th Feb 2014, 11:57

Some good points. Thanks for the answers.

I sort of figured it would still be cheaper for Jetstar to employ a cadet produced FO than a more experienced person who has been laid off by Qantas.

And peterc005 I have heard similar things with regards to the Uni side of things being a little disorganised but a generally positive vibe overall.

Cheers.

morno

27th Feb 2014, 21:20

Ahhh peterc, so predictable.

Always a one sided affair with you. What's so bad about someone who goes out bush to start with?

And I believe Jetstar does make money off the cadet program.

morno

Oakape

27th Feb 2014, 21:32

I sort of figured it would still be cheaper for Jetstar to employ a cadet produced FO than a more experienced person who has been laid off by Qantas.

Modern aviation summed up in one line! The airline management mantra of today is 'get rid of the older, experienced guys; the new guy is cheaper'.

As someone once told me - "Accountants - they know the cost of everything & the value of nothing!"

pull-up-terrain

27th Feb 2014, 22:10

.Ahhh peterc, so predictable.

I wonder if peterc005 has a financial interest in this cadetship because there is a lecturer at Swineburne University in the aviation area with the name Peter...

Lookleft

27th Feb 2014, 22:17

How does Jetstar make a profit from Cadets?

Have you not heard of the "facilitation fee" Peter? A rather large sum of money that goes to Jetstar. They also get paid less than a direct entry F/O when they first start.

Ted Nugent

27th Feb 2014, 22:39

How does Jetstar make a profit from Cadets?

Pete

Cadets are paid at the JFO rate, last time I checked that equates to a difference of $35,397 PA form the Level 1 direct entry FO rate. Multiply that by the current amount of JFO's (74) on the seniority list, this equates to a wage saving of $2,619,318 PA today! Every new JFO that is employed will push this figure up.

There are some big $$ to be saved by employing cadets over direct entry FO's, if Jetstar couldn't make money out of this scheme they wouldn't bother.

Ted

peterc005

27th Feb 2014, 23:03

Hi Ted,

that's interesting.

Is there a limit to the ratio of JFOs to other pilots?

Are all of the JFOs cadets?

I guess they stay as JFOs until they have an ATPL (year or two?) ?

For a young guy coming thru the ranks working as a Jetstar JFO is still going to be a much better paid gig than doing small charter or instructing work.

Ted Nugent

27th Feb 2014, 23:37

Pete

Is there a limit to the ratio of JFOs to other pilots?

No

Are all of the JFOs cadets?

Yes

I guess they stay as JFOs until they have an ATPL (year or two?) ?

Yes

For a young guy coming thru the ranks working as a Jetstar JFO is still going to be a much better paid gig than doing small charter or instructing work.

This argument has been done to death!

Ted

tmpffisch

28th Feb 2014, 00:31

peterc005. Jetstar doesn't have cadetships because there is a social case towards it...the thought process wasn't "we should develop an employment stream of cadets because having to build diversity & experience over a range of aircraft types, airspace, operators & passengers, is much too hard.".

It's not out of the goodness of Jetstar's heart. A quick look at Jetstar's social investment extends to Starkids (overseas child poverty) and Flying Start (community sponsorship). Not those poor poor wannabe pilots...

They found that there is a financial case towards having a cadetship!

mcgrath50

28th Feb 2014, 00:44

I wonder if peterc005 has a financial interest in this cadetship because there is a lecturer at Swineburne University in the aviation area with the name Peter...

I highly doubt it, the Swinburne Peter has a lot more class.

For a young guy coming thru the ranks working as a Jetstar JFO is still going to be a much better paid gig than doing small charter or instructing work.

Agreed but when you are in your early 20s pay isn't everything. I catch up regularly with a Jetstar cadet friend. I'm jealous of his overseas holidays, his days off, his relative financial security, he's jealous of the flying and experience I'm getting in GA, including the PIC time which will make it easier for me to get a captain seat if/when I join an airline. The grass is always greener.

I have had this debate with Peter before. The Jetstar cadetship is a way to become an airline pilot. For SOME people it will be the best. It definitely will not be for all. If I was at the start of the journey I would still seriously consider all the other pathways available to see what suits me.

Advs

28th Feb 2014, 03:51

Each go their own...

Issue I have is 10 cadetships overall is what is to be competed. JQ8 starts March 3rd. JQ6 and 7 are PPL to CPL training atm. CAE are pushing them to finish at a faster rate, also threatening to kick some out at a training level ( requires JQ approval, but has happened to a few)
Will there be enough FO seats available to facilitate the 4-8 cadet attrition rate every 6 months with the last lost scheduled to finish CPL training by June 16.

sillograph

28th Feb 2014, 06:47

A cadet ship is another way of the company having more wage control.

Cadet ship=wage control

alexmcal0

4th Mar 2014, 10:39

Hi everyone,

I am 18 and am interested in applying to a Jetstar pilot cadet program. All I have ever wanted to do my entire life is be an airline pilot, and upon conversing with a few current and retired airline pilots, the general consensus they have given is that a cadetship is the way to go. I finished year 12 last year and received good grades in Maths, Physics and English, and am currently studying Aerospace Engineering and Business Management at university.

I have heard that a tertiary qualification is a good thing to have these days, but all I really want to do is fly and my thoughts are to go through a cadetship (if possible) and study once employed with an airline and gaining hours - because as I understand, hours are all that future employers will look at.

My question is: Is a cadetship a good way to go? or should I study now and wait until I am in my mid 20s and then start flying some other way :confused:

And please, I don't want to be attacked and insulted by a barrage of bitter and twisted old men because I am interested in cadetships :ugh: - I am after constructive comments/criticism...

Thanks :)

Humbly Reserved

4th Mar 2014, 12:59

Hey Alex,

If it was me I'd finish that business/engineering degree first. It'll give you something to fall back on when Aviation hits a dreaded downturn.

HR

mcgrath50

4th Mar 2014, 13:27

At least do another year in the degree. At worst it will give you more RPL when you join the cadetship (which Swinburne will give you). At best you will see what happens with the QF/JQ financial difficulties and you can stay there.

In terms of "should I do a cadetship?" google, search here etc. It's a personal choice. I personally had a bit of both and I would say, GA is great, for an 18 year old it is as fun and adventurous as taking a year off and backpacking Asia. As someone who was young getting into aviation. Enjoy the journey and the lifestyle, you don't have to worry about wives, kids, mortgages etc. for many years, have fun and make the most of the freedom. Trust me, ~20 on a 210 is very young in this country. Spend a few years kicking around GA and you will still get into airlines younger than many 'cadets' who are career changing.

*all advice is based on my circumstances and the current employment conditions. Stuff changes all the time and we are all an inch away from centrelink. Happy Flighting!

Advs

4th Mar 2014, 20:08

If you want to fly airlines do the Cadetship.
The airline industry is of such a low atm there is no realistic way of getting in with moderate flying experience ie. 1000tt 500mepic

Issue is with the Kadet system is your a 100k in debt and not guaranteed of any job after.
In light of current financial woes at QF and JQ I wouldn't be surprised if candidates from JQ8-10 getting the big black boot of cyaaaaa!

Captain Nomad

5th Mar 2014, 00:14

moderate flying experience ie. 1000tt 500mepic

Moderate flying experience?! 1000TT - that's probably barely two years worth of work in the industry...

j3pipercub

5th Mar 2014, 01:05

I was thinking the same thing. My understanding that 4k was about the 'moderate' level.

Advs

6th Mar 2014, 02:00

Haha fair enough
There is low
<500
Then moderate 500-3900
The more than moderate 3991-10000
Then experienced 10000+

deadcut

6th Mar 2014, 03:37

The thought process is..

"Who cares about the industry. Its all about me! If I get into jetstar I don't have to spend my time with those GA peasants."

Flyboat North

6th Mar 2014, 04:35

Qantas never offered a job guarantee either , they wanted to see performance.

Over 80 Junior First Officers in Jetstar now , understand the transition rate from cadetship to employment is similar to what the QF program was - around 95%

Virgin only offered a guarantee to raise the middle finger to the QF group cadet programs - micro program anyway - 8 per year.

Very little hope for the 3000 plus regional turboprop pilots in Australia to transition to any airline or FIFO jet job now, same for the RAAF pilots - all squadrons overstocked ATM.

Interesting times I would think in the boom years of 04 to 08 at least 500 and even up to 700 new jet jobs every year. Now less than 100.

No wonder most take a chance to slam cadet programs , always the same old catch cries , "no guarantee of job" , "you will never get a command", "rip off program" - all just no basis in reality.

Think a lot of turboprop dreamers just don't like the idea of a 19 yo, flying a new Airbus & earning over $80K plus , taking "their job"

Suck it up boys - the airlines can hire who they want - maybe many of the GA astronauts they were forced to hire in boom years were a disappointment, and that is why Jetstar began cadetships.

Dream on turboprop , dream on , one day you will be a "jet pilot" in your dreams it will come true

Brian Abraham

6th Mar 2014, 04:58

Who cares about the industry. Its all about me! If I get into jetstar I don't have to spend my time with those GA peasantsI found it interesting meeting some young folk recently who have given up their airline jobs (willingly) to get into GA. One going to a 210 bush job. There is life besides airlines.

deadcut

6th Mar 2014, 08:28

and that is why Jetstar began cadetships

There is absolutely no other reason (financial) as to why jetstar takes on cadets. They aren't doing anyone a favour.

"If you have the money, lets talk."

Humbly Reserved

6th Mar 2014, 12:01

Right On Deadcut.

I've noticed being in the industry for a couple decades that as GA eroded over the years that Cadetships looked more appealing as GA jobs were fewer/far between with more supply of fresh CPL/MECIR pilots than ever.

Its a shame though that people are willing to take advantage of such passionate people (i.e. pay for endo's, no job commitment, lower than minimum wage) this mindset of new pilots thinking of themselve (and rightly so) combined with managers trying to cope in tougher times or improve their bottom line has ensured this race to the bottom and unfortunately its only going to get worse.

Despite the Cadet benefiting in the short term. Long term this will erode said pilot and does the industry no favors:

Type in "pilots on foodstamps" and you will see what the situation is heading towards!

HR

AviatoR21

7th Mar 2014, 02:56

FlyBoat North you hit the nail on the head! Those dreamers will always be the whiners..

Qanchor

7th Mar 2014, 05:27

Jee, these cadet-haters just can't give it a rest can they,.......

It's not the contemporary cadets that give "cadets" a bad name.
As for the 1960/70's QF cadets, don't get me started.

alexmcal0

7th Mar 2014, 21:59

Well, I just got word from CTC Aviation that Jetstar has put all cadetship programs "on hold," due to the issues within the Qantas Group...

I guess I'll be doing that degree after all.

Flyboat North

8th Mar 2014, 01:16

Just another scare I think Mac - the old cry "you will never get a job"

Think of it this way

80 plus former cadets are now flying A320s with Jetstar
Jetstar unlike Virgin still actually hired DE FOs in Australia during 2013 - about 50
22 cadets have just commenced ab-initio equal split between CTC & Oxford
Jetstar Australia is currently hiring direct entry FOs for Jetstar Australia
Jetstar still has significant aircraft orders
Jetstar only tells its flying schools at the very last minute what the requirement for numbers are, the next ab-initio intake is scheduled for start of August this year
You need to check your facts Jetstar wouldn't do anything right now given they have six months to evaluate developments
Remember they have been subject of a good deal of "knocking" about this program - this will only make them more determined to make it work, and given 80 are checked to line. At this point in time they have the score on the board.

Black_Knight

8th Mar 2014, 09:55

probably closer to " if i get the cadetship i can still support my family\ not be completely broke, while getting paid to fly"

but assume the completely selfish perspective if you like

A320 Flyer

10th Mar 2014, 09:15

I'm pretty happy with how my situation has ended up....

I got some G.A hours and went in with about 1700 hrs in 2011 as no direct entry Regional or Airline jobs were going at the time. I had interviews with QL (traineeship) and JQ (cadetship) and chose the latter.

I've got about 2000hrs on the bus and don't owe anyone a cent.... never did. But I got extremely lucky when I started.

I sincerely doubt there will be any further intakes in the next twelve months based on what was presented by our CEO last week. Sorry but I think that window may be closed for a while......

Flyboat North

11th Mar 2014, 09:09

Sure you fly for Jetstar ! , and sure the CEO briefs junior FOs , and sure you have all this top secret information.

Actually don't know they took anyone with over 1000 hours on the Jetstar Advanced - that was the cut-off at Oxford. They wanted them as far away from an ATPL as possible - to keep on junior FO rates.

Seeing as though they just started 24 ab-initios as all this QF news was about to unfold (and they knew it all) you would think the future of jetstar cadetships are quite bright.

Noticed to , that apps for DE FOs are also open, expanding fleet etc.

But lets look at the bad side - it will close - there is no guarantee of a job - you never hold an ATPL & be a career FO

Enjoy "flying" your "airbus" mr 1700 hour man

Flyboat North

12th Mar 2014, 00:27

The training providers have no say in how many get selected - Jetstar tells them

For example July 2013 - four commence , March 2014 11 commence at Oxford.

But be very very careful, it is all a big conspiracy, secret deals ,secret commissions - all very very risky

It's a huge risk pay $120K , then in 18 months only a 95% chance of transitioning directly to an A320 Job earning $100K within two years, permanent job. Tread very very carefully, so many tricks , secret business by the big corporations, all very hush hush

You would be much better off going GA , even doing an AV degree at one of the Unis that typically run these programs ranked at around 600 in the world (Ok UNSW is very much the exception). Get the training for 15% less than cadetship at best , then enter the wonderful world of GA, where you will be exploited and get to know the centrelink office very well. At best you will earn $50 K per year over ten years, then you will have the right to apply to Jetstar with competitive time - you will need 4000 TT.

Then out of the 1000s who have applications in maybe you will be one of the exceptionally lucky ones. 2000 turboprop pilots in Australia maybe 50 direct entry jet jobs this year.

Perhaps at best a 20% chance of pulling it off. At this time your cohorts who did the cadetship will have been Capts for five years and earned at least $1 mill more than you.

Go the GA way , must safer , less risk , have that life experience of periods of unemployment, no security. Then when you decide to walk away from it , realize your Av degree and 3000 TT pretty much qualify you for nothing in big wide world.

Don't go the cadet route , the big bad corporations are just all making "secret commissions" from you. No guarantee of job with cadetship only a 95% probability - GA is a much safer bet

peterc005

12th Mar 2014, 00:36

Getting an airline Cadetship is a bit like winning the lotto. If you want an airline pilot career and get offered a cadetship, jump at it with both feet.

BlatantLiar

12th Mar 2014, 01:21

So I noticed the last post in this thread was made by Peter right. I proceeded to open the thread and yet again his retardation didn't fail to disappoint. Onya Peter, top bloke. :ok:

Mail-man

12th Mar 2014, 05:04

Like winning lotto? So cadetships are an idiot tax, gifted to a generally undeserving few at the expense of others..... All makes sense now.

Flyboat North

13th Mar 2014, 00:09

Well they always have been like winning lotto, that is what the staff at BAe used to remind their QF cadets of when they ran the program back in the 90s. Also BTW the QF program was also entirely self funded, and again no guarantee of a job.

Look at it this way a Jetstar cadets will likely earn about $ 1.7 million in their first ten years employment

The same guy who didn't want to take the "huge risk" of a cadetship will earn likely about $400 K in their first ten years , likely punctuated by at least 25% of time spent unemployed, underemployed, working as a "slave" in at a GA flying school where you will be expected to work FT at a flying school , to be paid only for your two or three hours flying a week.

Doing laps of Australia on your credit card , and expected to be a "hang around" in a town for months before being considered for a job. In the meantime your high school buds have graduated Uni , in stable city jobs , buying houses, taking OS holidays.

So if you can actually stick this out for ten years , yes come on down winner, you now actually have the right to submit an application to Jetstar - you will need about 4000 tt to be competitive. But wait Oz is now feeling the GFC wash onto our shores , albeit a few years after, and there are now less than 100 direct entry spots per year.

Your application is now in the pile with a couple of thousand other turboprop dreamers, who are almost all likely to spend their entire careers turboprop dreaming.

But wait - you are lucky and actually pull it off. You feel so proud of yourself in your new Jetstar uniform earning your initial $90K base per year. But you bump into your old HS mate , you know the one who did the cadetship, actually had the discipline to prepare properly, had two cracks before he got it instead of enrolling in the first "You will have a jet job within five years - worst case" flying school he spotted on the drome. He is now a widebody Capt earning a base of three times your salary.

Go for GA maaateee - you will be such a winner.

mcgrath50

13th Mar 2014, 01:30

If that was me Flyboat, I'd shake my friend/Captains hand and invite him to catch up with a beer that weekend. Over the beer(s) we'd discuss what we had been up to over the past 10 years. I'd tell him about the skydiving gig I got my start on. Then moving further up north to chase a charter gig. Flying a 210 over parts of the country tourists pay hundreds of dollars to see. Trying to time my jump to a twin operator at the perfect time. Moving from a baron to the conquest and loving the capabilities of that aircraft. I did my first trip across Australia from coast to coast, a truly memorable experience.

Oh did I mention the fishing, crabbing and camping I did over these years? Something that became a new passion for this city boy. Not to mention the backpackers rolling through town every dry season.

I made my way into a regional airline, finally back to a major city, and was able to offer my captain knowledge and experience I had forged over many hours. Most of the guys I flew with had trod the same path and we traded stories of owners, planes and 'local characters' from our time up North. I upgraded to Captain and spent a few years with a turboprop command before getting the call from Jetstar. I'd made it. A 10 year adventure one where I had made many new friends, experienced some of the most amazing sights and people this country has to offer and honed my flying skills and airmanship.

I asked my friend/Captain what he'd been doing the past 10 years? He'd flown an A320. Become a captain. He'd lived in Melbourne the whole time. He asked me to tell him more about those backpackers...

:ok:

Lookleft

13th Mar 2014, 02:15

Flyboat sets it all out very clearly the problem with a lot of (not all) the cadets coming through the Jetstar cadet scheme. Its all about how much money a pilot makes and how cool it is to be a jet pilot. Nothing about professionalism or trying to be the best pilot you can be. They write-off the GA experience as being beneath them without having the faintest idea how it works (suggest you read mcgrath 50's post).

He is now a widebody Capt earning a base of three times your salary.

Sums up nicely, what in some cadets mind, it is all about. It will be a long time before a Jetstar cadet gets to see a widebody command.

Flyboat North

13th Mar 2014, 02:40

Skydiving - wow that must have been fun spending your weekends - unpaid , dragging sweaty smelly skydivers around.

Yes there are spectacular parts of the outback, but when you don't have a two dimes to rub together , you don't really have the brass to do the overpriced adventure stuff that the wealthy tourists do. The spectacular bungles look like a rock in five minutes, oh but wait you will have the amazing opportunity to find true love with an indigenous girl.

In the ten years, most won't have saved a brass razzoo. Particularly now with no movement from the regionals , so very hard to even get a start at a regional.

Most are just going to be stuck in the regional abyss for eternity.

Your Jetstar mate , in the meantime did a couple of years on the A320, shifted bases to Darwin did a lot Asian flying. Took LWOP did two years at Jetstar Pacific, flew the 330 for a bit. Twelve substantial overseas holidays , owns three houses. 320 capt , now 330 capt thinking of doing the LWOP again to go up to Asia again.

Oh but you have been camping & crabbing, own zip apart from a beaten up ute & have spent years in the outback - gee you are just miles ahead.

Oh & you can also spend hours swapping war stories about the local derro in Wyndam - wouldn't change it for the world mate !

wishiwasupthere

13th Mar 2014, 02:58

Yeah, you blokes better listen up to what Flyboat North has to say! Because based on his posting history, he has had a long and distinguished career in aviation in Australia. Did you end up finding somewhere in Melbourne last year to do your MECIR? :mad: head.

27/09

13th Mar 2014, 03:02

Flyboat North

13th Mar 2014, 03:07

Not everyone actually wants to be an airline pilot my friend

Having said that the jealousy on these forums towards the various airline cadetships is really quite hysterical

Be an outback drifter for ten years, traveling from one centrelink office to another as you search for that elusive "first job", after obtaining an expensive qualification , that qualifies you for nothing else.

We know that that 95% of those who start a cadetship fly for an airline. I wonder what % of those who fund a CPL make it - I would say 20% tops

The sad thing is the other 80% waste years of their lives pursuing a goal then failing, live their lives as outback "shadowmen"

% might have been a bit better 2003 to 2008 but that period was very much the exception, unlikely to be seen again.

Dream on you GA turboprop dreamer

27/09

13th Mar 2014, 03:21

Having said that the jealousy on these forums towards the various airline cadetships is really quite hysterical

Hmmm, I'm not sure it's jealousy nor hysteria.

Flyboat, Have you ever sat down and thought why certain airlines promote these cadetships.

I'll give you a few hints. It's not because these outfits want to give aspiring pilots a helping hand. It's not because there's a shortage of pilots.

It's all about undermining existing terms and conditions.

Yet, you appear to be surprised by the posts that don't see cadetships as a good idea?

It's nothing to do with jealousy.

Flyboat North

13th Mar 2014, 03:37

Seeing conspiracies again brother

Quite simply they didn't want to hire a lot of the self paid CPLs that they took in the 06/10 period

If you attach a job outcome you will get a much wider talent pool applying. You will get higher calibre, more ability , more driven people as your pilot workforce.

What % of those who graduate top 5% of year 12 , or have just completed a degree at Good Uni would want to go beer can dreaming in the outback for ten years. Heaps of flies , very little money , surrounded by d***heads & drifters.

Very few I would suggest

Junior FO wages for two years maximum - big deal they are still grossing $85 K plus , and the course is lets face an 18 month vocational level training program.

mcgrath50

13th Mar 2014, 06:03

Firstly I got paid as a jump pilot (thanks 27!). I actually earnt more doing that than my first year as a casual charter pilot. So please don't stereotype and judge. You will notice I haven't ever posted here "do not do a cadetship".

All I am doing is providing a counter balance so a kid reading this forum who just missed out on the cadetship doesn't think it's all over.

Truthfully the story I told is a composite of myself and a few friends careers. I am still 'up north' and loving it. I also have 2 good friends who were cadets we all graduated school the same year.

The Jetstar cadet is like you say, enjoying decent money, lives in the city with all his friends and takes overseas holidays. Yet when we catch up he wants to know what a C210 is like and how do I do VFR in some of the weather he see's from his A320 at Darwin during the wet. We both are loving life and both have moments of jealousy of each other. That's life. There were cadets on his course who dropped out, got 'moved on' and started with Jetstar 12 months after he did. No one experience is typical.

My other friend is a Qantas Cadet from one of the last courses before the scheme was cancelled. He has only spoken to Qantas a couple of times since he started the course and since graduating the degree has heard nothing. He's working in GA and like me loving it but doubts he will ever see the cockpit of a Qantas jet despite all the time, effort and money he put towards the cadetship.

We are all happy. We are all marching different routes. One path isn't the best. In fact the same path can yield different results from different people. Stop scaremongering. GA is still alive and well and lots of fun. If you miss out on a cadetship (or decide it's not for you) all is not lost.