Boy Entrants & Apprentices Like to comment?

[ian16th]

Last of the boy soldiers? Bid to end centuries of tradition by banning the Army from recruiting under-18s | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2326807/Last-boy-soldiers-Bid-end-centuries-tradition-banning-Army-recruiting-18s.html)

OK not being in the Infantry meant that I wasn't cannon fodder and the nearest I came to the Army was playing rugby for Yatesbury Boys against the Army Apprentices at Arborfield.

But, I've always been thankful that I CHOOSE to enter the RAF as a 15 year old. I had wonderful training. I had 13 years service that I thoroughly enjoyed. And then used that wonderful training to have a successful career in civvy st. Where my peers were normally University educated people that I was able to hold my own with.

[Tankertrashnav]

My only claim to fame during my service was that when when I was commissioned I was still two weeks short of my 18th birthday and was at the time the youngest officer in the British armed forces, a situation which lasted about 4 weeks until a chap on the next intake who was slightly younger than me was commissioned in his turn.

I see no problem in allowing 16 year olds to volunteer for military service. It's always seemed to me a paradox that as young men and women become physically mature earlier and earlier there is a tendency for them to remain childlike for longer and longer - witness the growing numbers of helpless twenty and thirty somethings still living at home with their parents. At least these boy (and girl) soldiers are showing a willingness to get out into the world and prove their independence at an early age.

[sisemen]

Gave me an excellent grounding for non-commissioned and commissioned service as well as civilian life.

I can think of more than the odd scrote where a voluntary period of service in the forces would do them a power of good.

[ian16th]

I was commissioned I was still two weeks short of my 18th birthday I thought I was doing well by making Cpl at 19! :cool:

[Tankertrashnav]

And so you were. As the "hairies" on my OCTU course always assured us young direct entrants, the RAF was run by NCOs, the officers were only there to sign the leave passes!

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Quite right Tanker. Some of my "30 something" colleagues are bewildered by the big world we inhabit and seem incapable of making sense of it instead relying on the virtual world of social media to help them make decisions.

I was a wizened 17 year old when I set off into the world clutching my travel warrant. By the age of 19 I was working Battle Flight at Wilders, by 30 years of age I'd started another career and have since moved on again.

An early independence is essential for creating free thinking, non-egotistic, rational all-rounders and encourages a perennially youthful outlook on life. I'm all for an early call up..., but only after I've had a cup of tea:ok:

[oldsimscot]

Joined as a 15 year old Boy Entrant in the RAF. 42 Years service and still working as a civilian for the Airforce. Boys service pulled me out of a deadbeat life and taught me that with loyalty and hard work you could achieve any goal. A few youths could be sorted out in this day and age by a short stint of military training.

[izod tester]

Apprentices and Boy Entrants in both the RAF and the Army undertook quite lengthy technical training and would not normally have finished their courses before they were 17 for Boy Entrants whilst Apprentices were usually 19 before they entered adult service.

In the late '70s, there were several 16 year old FLMs on the flight lines of UK and RAFG bases. They were generally no more likely to be casualties than any other RAF tradesmen working on the same bases. However, in both the young FLM case and for young teenage soldiers, they generally had still not finished growing and their physical strength and stamina was not as high as airmen and soldiers in their 20s.

Thus I would tend to agree that entry to any branch of the armed services where physical strength and stamina was a requirement for operations should not be allowed for under 18s. However, I would support the continued recruitment of Apprentices at 16 since they would not be exposed to active service until they were 19 and in most cases rely on skill and dexterity rather than brute force to meet their tasks.

[Tinribs]

I was on a ground tour 69/72 and made an apprentice flight commander

It was my first experience of proper man mangement, apprentices and staff and taught me a great deal but I am convinced we did a good job for the youths we trained

They came from a variety of backgrounds and had a large spread of needs but we tried hard to meet them, mostly we succeeded but we had our failures too

My greates triumph was rec,ing one of my lads for a commision and meeting him much later as a wing commander

My worst failure was reluctantly allowing a nasty bully to pass, he later had taken a mates car and killed several others while drunk driving

Overall the apprentice system did a great deal of good to almost all our entries. There were a few who should never have been recruited and some others determined to thwart our efforts; mostly these left.

[teeteringhead]

In the late '70s, there were several 16 year old FLMs on the flight lines of UK and RAFG bases. And certainly into this century I can recall some TG9 graduates from Shawbs who arrived on their first Station - as LACs - still short of their 17th birthday.

TTN - I must have been old - commissioned 3 weeks shy of my 19th birthday, and got my Wings 10 weeks after my 20th!

Will always remember a slightly surreal conversation with the Son and Heir, whilst taking him to Uni for the first time.

S&H: Dad - you didn't go to Uni did you?
Moi: No son, I didn't
S&H: So what were you doing when you were 19?
Moi: Flying jets (well - the JP counts!!)
S&H: What! :eek: Just by yourself! :eek::eek:
Moi: Sometimes - but they were very small and not very fast!
S&H: :eek::eek::eek:

[Wander00]

Similar experience to TTH - sent my 3 sons - 41, 40 and 24, the picture of the Gnat rolling 120 deg to go round the Llyn Ogwen corner on the A5 pass - sort of thing your Dad did in his youth. To man they all went "Nah, not you, too difficult". Cheeky bu@@ers!

[Blacksheep]

At the ripe old age of 16 years and ten months, my Dad was out in the Arctic as a Boy Signaller in HMS King George V (that's him on the extreme right, as he joined the Boy's Mess under the watchfull eye of PO Jenman)

http://www.culture24.org.uk/asset_arena/2/07/99/299702/v0_master.jpg

. . . and I began marching around Maitland Parade Ground six weeks after my 16th and never looked back. Our Entry will be celebrating our 50th at this year's Triennial.

[Q-RTF-X]

Ian15th got right to the meat of the matter...

But, I've always been thankful that I CHOOSE to enter the RAF as a 15 year old

The direction he points to is the fact that for a long long time now entrants in this age group were / still are volunteers exercising freedom of choice and, often in fact, facing a lot of competition to even be considered. The days of press gangs roaming about rounding up unfortunates have been gone well before anybody around today can even remember.

I include myself as one of those fortunate enough to have slogged my way through the selection process and won myself a place to be trained as an Air Force Boy Entrant. We worked hard, played even harder and when the time came moved into the real world of Air Force life with high expectations of what lay ahead and also of ourselves.

It was a sad day when Boy Entrant training was withdrawn from the AirForce

[ricardian]

I joined the RAF in 1959 as a Boy Entrant. I was just 16 and passed out 18 months later as a Telegraphist II. My first posting was RAF Driffield, a Thor missile site. The 18 months of training turned young boys into young men and gave them a sense of discipline and purpose that lasted for the rest of their lives. We certainly couldn't be classed as "trained killers" although we did learn to fire the .303 and the Bren.

[ian16th]

And certainly into this century I can recall some TG9 graduates from Shawbs who arrived on their first Station - as LACs - still short of their 17th birthday. This is a change from the 50's.

Our passing out trade test was the SAC test. If aged 17 1/2 or over, we went to our units as LAC's and were promoted to SAC after 6 months.

I passed out of Boys Service under age. As such I still held the rank of B/E, but didn't wear my 'wheel', and as a qualified tradesman in a Radio Trade, I did wear my 'sparks badge'.

So I looked like and AC1, but I was paid AC2's money :E

I could not sign a F700 until I was 17 1/2 and a LAC. I'm very surprised to hear that 16 year old's were allowed to work on a/c.

At the age of 17 1/2 I became an LAC, and a SAC 6 month from pass out.

[thefodfather]

Having failed abysmally to apply myself at the start of my A-levels, not long after my 17th birthday I joined the last entry of A/P apprentices. In the last 23+ years, I have been privileged to both work for and lead some truly amazing individuals in some amazing jobs in some great places. The skills gathered over the years helped lead to my new career outside the service as well. But without the practical skills and values instilled into us Appos at Halton (in my case) I don't think things would have turned out quite the same. Extremi Optimorum.

[airborne_artist]

My father went to Dartmouth aged 13.5 in 1947, and was one of the last so to do.Of course he wasn't to wear a midshipman's uniform until he was 18 but the expectation was there from a young age. His term was joined by both 16 and 18 year olds and before long the 13 y/o entry scheme was ceased.

[sisemen]

I recently met up with a bunch of ex Boy Entrants in Perth WA and, to a man, they all valued their time as Boys and capitalised on the training and opportunities it presented in their civilian endeavours.

Can the next generations make the same boast?

[ian16th]

TTN,

In your alter ego of a dealer in medals and such, does a B/E or App's brass 'wheel' have any value?

I have a couple, only 60 years or so of age. One of them I don't think was ever worn. Neither of them tapped.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

In Jan 1964 I signed the dotted line as a 15 yr 9 mth Boy Entrant. I was under 17 1/2 on pass-out so I was not old enough to wear my LAC badge. At the age sof 17 yr 8 mth I was on my way to Singapore for a 6 month detachment. What an experience for a young lad! I spent my 19th birthday in Aden. After 5 years I decided that the trade I was in was not for me but the RAF let me remuster to airframes. That was in 1969. At the age of 65 I am still enjoying a career with aircraft. I have had a great career and joining at the age of 15 did me nothing but good. Before joining I was in all sorts of minor trouble. I have travelled all over the world and always had a ball. Work hard - yes. Play harder - definitely. I have never met an ex Boy Entrant / Apprentice that claimed they did not benefit from their experience.

[Saintsman]

I enlisted at 16 1/2 and joined my first squadron on my 17th birthday, working on the mighty Phantom. Very soon I was much more worldly experienced that the guys I went to school with and I'm sure that I grew up much quicker and to quote the cliché, it made me a man.

My son at the same age was several years behind in terms of development.

I notice that most of the replies are not from soldiers and maybe there is something to be said for not sending under 18s off to war, especially as they are deemed not old enough to drink alcohol or vote.

However, nothing wrong with putting them through training and of course the earlier you start, the easier it is to mould them into what you want.

[diginagain]

The British Army used to have a number of training regiments for Junior Leaders, where entrants from the age of 15 were trained until entering adult service at 17 and a half. The expectation was that these young men would go on to form the rump of the SNCO cadre in later life. This system was replaced by the Army Foundation College at Harrogate. Army Foundation College. (http://www.army.mod.uk/training_education/training/7127.aspx)

[Tankertrashnav]

Iain - re apprentice "wheels". When I had a shop I was always being asked for these. They are quite hard to get hold of, probably because as they were of the sew-on variety a lot either got lost or chucked along with the tunic/battledress. I'm not trading any more but I bet if you put them on a well-known internet auction site you'd find bidders. Probably only a few ££ each but it all goes to top up the pension!

[smujsmith]

I joined in January 1969 as a Craft Apprentice at Halton. I was 15 years and 2 months. And, having completed a 2 year 3 month airframe course, was posted as an acting AC2 Fitter for 1 month as I was not allowed to be a Jnr Tech until I was 17 years and 6 months old. Coming from a small village I had the choice of becoming a farm worker (with all the major prospects that offered) or getting into something I was very keen on, aircraft. Anyway I eventually completed 30 years service, medical discharge after Driver Airframe decided to do Aero's without letting us know down the back. I made so many great friends during my time, and still regularly get in contact with mates in Aussie, New Zealand and even Belgium. I owe a great deal to all of my friends for making my career and life so rewarding. It's hard to put your finger on it, but once you've experienced it, it's hard to forget. Oops, rambling a bit methinks. I'll go have a lie down :O

[sisemen]

after Driver Airframe decided to do Aero's without letting us know down the back

You can't leave that one hanging....tell us more.

[500N]

I so nearly joined the British Military at 17, instead I went to
Australia. Still took an Ex RSM now Capt/Adj to knock me
into shape / the rough edges off.

I think it would still give lots of people in the future a chance
as has been shown my many of the posts on here.

[Davita]

As most here will know it was Lord Trenchard who created the RAF and the Apprenticeship scheme and, I believe, also Cranwell.
He was not considered an academic when young and I read he nearly failed the officer entrance exam to the Army.
I often wonder if it was that lack of education that heightened his later ability to observe how to channel youthful free-spirit and energy into a positive for good.
In 1952, I was just over 15 when I joined RAF Halton as an Apprentice and 18 when I graduated. About 5 years later I was commissioned and later left the RAF and joined a commercial international airline. Prior to retirement I flew on B747's for 10 years.
I still recall the banner we read every day that stated "The aim of the Apprentice training is to provide a body of men with technical ability, strength of character and sense of loyalty, from which future NCO's and Officers may be selected" ......not verbatum!
I can honestly say that every decision or choice I've made, whether in professional or social life, has been influenced by my time as a 'brat' at RAF Halton.....so thank you Lord Trenchard...your creation led me to my very happy and productive life.

[ImageGear]

I joined in '67 as DE and did time as a fitter with 38gp at RAF Benson, I was privileged to know and work with some great people including a few who joined "without the option", coming from establishments which might be defined today as "corrective". :eek:

Still sitting at SAC after more than 10 years service, these "boy entrants" had achieved almost miraculous turnarounds in their lives and were reliable, dependable and experienced well beyond the normal SAC role. They had seen service in some of the armpits of the Middle East which are possibly on a par for inhumanity with our more current expeditions

I believe that they truly recognised the opportunities that had been "afforded" them and were grateful that somewhere a "beak" had set them on the right path.

Ohh for a little foresight from our current crop of "juvenile" magistrates and the government. :*

Imagegear

[The Oberon]

I have always struggled with this question.

Like many others I reported to Stalag Luft Locking at the age of 15 1/2 and followed the then usual career path of Cpl. @ 21, Sgt. @ 25 and Ch/Tech @ 30. I had also signed on from my original 12 years to complete 22 years and thought I was doing pretty well. Some years later, I signed on again to complete to age 47 but due to changes in circumstances, both service and domestic, I PVR'd to leave at my original 22 year point. Determined not to go into defence electronics, I joined an oil and gas production company as a control systems engineer and was amazed to find that, after only 12 months, I was earning double as much as I had as a Ch./Tech. not only that but I didn't have the responsibility of 50+ juniors to worry about. I thought that this was great until I looked around at my contemporaries, on the same salary, and realised that they were all in their mid, late 20s and I was 41. I had some great times in the RAF but when I was in my mid 20s as a newly promoted SNCO with a wife and 2 children, I had really struggled to make ends meet.

Some years later, when I was 53 and having 13 1/2 years under my belt, the company I worked for introduced a volutary redundancy / early retirement plan which, if you were over 50, you were crazy not to take. It was service dependent and I walked away with a "gratuity", 6 x what MOD had paid me after 22 years, I also got an immediate pension 50% higher than the RAF one, in fairness, the RAF one regained parity a couple of years later when I had repaid my commutation and the index linking kicked in.

I am now retired and have been out of the "mob" for longer than I was in but I still can't decide if that 1961 train journey from Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare was the correct one. I am happy with how things turned out but I do think that in practical financial terms, things could have been better had I missed the train.

Mind you, for 20 of my 22 years, I had a great time until a large grey / hemp thing, with bulbous radomes, front and rear, came along.

[ian16th]

@Oberon,

Maybe you stayed in too long.

Service pay was never the best, the possibility of a pension at 40 was better than civvy st. Then you managed to get a 2nd pension.

I came out after the original 10, on my 28th birthday, with only £50 as a thanks and goodbye.

8 years later I was living in a bigger house than my neighbour, who was a Wing Co. from Church Fenton :)

[oldpax]

Joined in 1958 at 15 yrs 11 months!Finished training at 171/2 and found I didnt get mans pay until I was 18,also could not put up my SAC rank until 18!!Discovered that a ordinary recruit joining at 18 only did 18 wks training for the same job,very odd I thought!my 12 years also did not start until I was 18 and no I dont think it was exactly explained at attestation time!Apart from that I enjoyed being on Coastal Command but not Khormaksar and even Oakington began to pale after 5 years and still at SAC so out I came on borrowed money 1Now almost retired and making a fare whack working overseas on all sorts of projects in Commissioning.

[smujsmith]

Siseman

I think the incident would not fit well in this thread, more fitting in a thread on "a silly thing happened to me on the way from a conflict", perhaps also, I would not like to imply unprofessional actions on behalf of people I really admire. That said, my training at Halton was something I was always proud of. Imagine if you can coming home on leave from Halton, for the first time, to a small Staffordshire village. On the day, I had spent the morning rigging the elevator controls on a Piston Provost. By 1700 hours I was at home, and, having a chat with old school mates. No one would believe that I had been doing something with a real aircraft only that morning. That sort of thing gives one a bit of a kick of pride. That pride, hopefully not overdone, followed me through my service career. I was always proud of being an ex Halton Apprentice, and feel that many branches of the service respected all apprentice schools. Particularly when as a C130 GE, I worked with some great FEs and Pilots and Navs (even the odd Loadie, and there were some odd ones :=)

Smudge

[ian16th]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10071393/Leading-Seaman-Bill-Crosby.html

This 14 year old seemed to do all right!

[alisoncc]

Attended Cardington for assessment when still 15 and was at Locking when 16. Thought it was the pig's rear end back then, but in hindsight best thing that ever happened to me.

Recently had to get a police "working with children" clearance to enable me to do some mentoring with a 17 year old. By 17 I had crossed rifles on my sleeve as a marksman, and was a dab hand with a Bren. Wasn't long after that I found myself playing silly buggers with Vulcans at Finningley. We grew up fast in those days.

Just thinking about the Coronation Pub in Weston-Super-Mud. The bar lady would serve us half tots of whatever we fancied from what was on offer behind the bar, and this whilst still sixteen. And a pint of scrumpi and wedge of cheddar with half a crusty loaf bread, what more could a youngster want.

[Once A Brat]

As you can guess by my pprune 'nickname' I can relate to a lot of the posts above - with regards to my Service career becoming an RAF Apprentice was the best decision I ever made, closely followed by taking a commission.

However, it was Alisoncc's post that really sunk home: I remember going for a pint with my Dad on the first Sunday I was allowed home after joining aged 16 and getting served because in landlord's eyes (himself an ex-RN boy)

"If he's old enough to serve the Queen, he's old enough to drink in my pub!"


Now in my second career I have 24/25 year oldsworking for me, some still living at home. By that age, I was on my second overseas tour as Cpl.

What opportunities and happy memories.

[ian16th]

Seeing as I started the thread, may I be allowed to celebrate, before the date clicks over?

Today is the 61st anniversary of the 16th Entry of Radio Trades Boy Entrants being inducted at RAF Yatesbury. :ok:

[500N]

Interesting in the paper today about Free schools run by ex mil people
are to open.

Troops in the classroom as Britain's first military-style free school gets the go-ahead | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329137/Troops-classroom-Britains-military-style-free-school-gets-ahead.html)