What to take for education?!?

[predzsingh15]

Hi Guys!
At the moment I am abit confused, i am 15 and i will be starting my ppl in a couple of weeks time. I am taking gcses. But i am confused what to take at a-levels? and further on what about degree wise? I've been told aviation engineering is pointless as apparently you dont even need a degree. What do airliners nowadays require education wise?
Thanks for your help and understanding :)

[contacttower118.2]

A-levels wise sciences would be preferred but not necessary I think. Mine are certainly not in science subjects!

Doing degrees before training is becoming increasingly common, could be something like aeronautical engineering, which is very much a degree level subject! Or one could do something completely unrelated to flying.

[PVFC]

Doing an aviation related degree is not universally recommended...it would be a good idea for you to have a different subject to fall back on.

If you were insistent in getting an aviation related degree, then Physics & Maths at A Level and then a degree like Aerospace/Aeronautical Engineering (potentially with a sandwich year in industry/management) would put you in good stead.

[BOZR_DOUGIE]

Who told you Aviation Engineering is pointless and you don't get a degree.

I have a First Class BEng(hons) in Avionics Engineering !!!!!!

Most airlines want a degree, I don't know an airline pilot without one.

[Stocious]

Loads of pilots don't have degrees!

[Bealzebub]

Most airlines want a degree, I don't know an airline pilot without one.

You don't know many airline pilots then? I wouldn't discourage anybody from obtaining the best academic education they can achieve, and these days it is becoming more and more desirable to obtain qualifications that give you that all important edge. However the reality is that a degree is almost never a prerequisite in the UK. Having said that, it isn't a hindrance either, and many pilots do possess one.

In countries with different educational mainstream expectations (such as the USA,) it is very likely to form one of the minimum employment conditions.

[what a view]

I went to University to study Aerospace Engineering, and although I didn't like the course, the time spent there was very useful. It gives you a chance to develop key skills, (teamwork, leadership etc), that airlines are looking for in their pilots. Even if you don't decide on an aviation based course, choose something that you will enjoy, it doesn't really matter what as long as you take the experience and learn from the things you do there. I was told by a well known FTO at 18 that I didn't have enough "life experience" so Uni has really helped with that. However, from my experience, don't go to university if the thought of spending 3 years sat in lectures doesn't appeal to you. There are other things to do out there that are a good alternative, if not better. And I too know a fair few airline pilots without degrees. I also know a lot that do!

In regards to A-levels, in my opinion Maths is a must. All the flying schools test your mathematics at assessment so being able to do more than just basic calculations will stand you in good stead. Also take physics if you want to get a good scientific grounding. I did both at A-level, as well as chemistry, and havn't looked back. I hope this helps you make your decision!

[Morris542]

Do you what you want to do!

I did a mix between what I THOUGHT I should have done (maths, physics) and what I wanted to do (hist, geog). I enjoyed the subjects I wanted to do, and hated maths + phys because I was not very good at them! When it came to exams I had to study much more for maths + physics and still didn't do that well. My lack of revision in the other subjects caused those results to suffer.

As for university, I did history. But more importantly I had a blast, met some awesome friends and got some pretty good memories. It is worth saying that you don't have to go to uni to get these things - I wanted to because it suited me.

You don't need A level maths to be a pilot, just a sound basic understanding (gcse). So many people come on here and ask what they should study but I think they are the only ones that can answer that question!

[Bealzebub]

I know some guys who fly for major UK airlines and they don't even have GCSE's so I wouldn't stress about it if I was you...

You may well, but if you think that is something "not to stress about" then your situational awareness needs significant improvement.

These days every employer sees those same news clips every August, when anxious teens are opening their GCSE and A-Level results only to discover (or so it is often made to appear) that everyone has A-stars in everything. Every year the "question" is always asked "are exams getting easier and easier?"

An employer expects to see education certification that is usually better than average. Young people in particular, have very little substance with which to pad out their CV's, and inevitably their educational achievements are going to play a significant part in how they present themselves.

Airlines get thousands and thousands of applications for every job going. They are only ever going to interview a small proportion of those applications. You can be sure that the filtration processes they employ, will nearly always set out "minimum qualifications." If GCSE's or A-levels are, part of that standard, then an absence of those qualifications will have an application fall at the first hurdle.

Kidding yourself that a "pilots licence" is an adequate substitute for education, is wishful thinking. Whereas, for an experienced pilot other factors may carry greater weight, at the lower levels of the pyramid that isn't usually the case. All interviewed pilots will have the requisite "pilots licence." It is what has made their CV' stand out from the rest of the pile" that allows their application to reach the final hurdles.

You may think your character and charisma will sell you and overcome other shortcomings, but if your CV doesn't get through the filters none of that will matter a jot. Beware those who tell you "they know someone who," or "all that matters is your licence." If you study these forums, or the industry in general, you will see that it constantly evolves. Over the last twenty years there have been major changes in licensing, training, financial risk, and recruitment opportunities. With regard to the latter, those opportunities have become more competitive than ever. Success often lies in those who can adapt to the evolution. Those who think that "it doesn't matter," or "wait long enough and the old times will return," are deluding themselves into extinction.

Back to the original posters question. Do your best! Try for solid results in core subjects. Then look at those subjects that you are good at, or with effort, could be good at, and focus on getting the best results possible.

Whilst straight "A's" in Maths, Physics, and English are always likely to give you an advantage. Provided the core subjects are reasonable, good grades in whatever (within reason) subjects you take, are likely to stand out more than mediocre or average grades in those subjects you chose to advance to.

[Bealzebub]

I see! Well, thank you for putting me straight. I may be out of date, since I haven't been to work for the last two days, but I suspect little has happened since Wednesday that would support your conjecture.

Perhaps you could tell us what else "airlines look for," because I have clearly not got it right.

[Bealzebub]

When we see cadets coming through the system, they all have education commensurate with their age. The certification reflects their attainment within that education. Why is this important? Because it is a significant proportion of their "life experience" to date.

Of course those "biggest airlines" of which you allude to, often have their own cadet programmes and perhaps you should spend a little time researching just what their minimum educational requirements are. Then having done that, ask yourself why.

Airlines looking for experienced pilots haven't traditionally put a great deal of bias on a candidates school/university attainment, since it the candidates professional experience they are seeking by way of qualification. However the fundamental mistake you are making, is in confusing this level of opportunity with that, that most wannabes are likely to be seeking.

You only have to read these forums to realize that most entry level airline pilot careers have evolved, and increasingly continue to evolve into cadet programmes. Even outside of these programmes, the competition is simply too fierce to delude yourself into believing that your educational attainments will simply be ignored or substituted.

I see this in the grades of candidates who are successfully graduating into these programmes. More than ever these days new pilot recruits are presenting with degrees, good quality A-Level results, and significant core subject GCSE results. So much so, that you can simply eliminate anybody without substantial education, and still be drowned in a sea of applications. It is a filter, and one you would be very unwise to ignore.

Of course I don't know tennisten's "mates," or the "statistics" upon which he relies. All I can tell you is what I do see and what I do know. As with any advice, do with it what you like.

[Bealzebub]

Presumably because they had those GCSE's, and that formed a part of the qualification criteria for that programme. Obvious really, and rhetorical.

[Bealzebub]

I followed a group of 20 cadets through their training right up until where they are today. That being the right hand seat of a commercial jet aircraft with a full time contract of employment. All of them have good educational attainment. many do have degrees, and I believe all are A-level standard. That attainment is reflected in the standards they have all displayed throughout their training.

This group is just one group of the many that have come through in the last 15 years or so, and it is a consistent point.

I am sorry that a PPL sitting in his bedroom doesn't like the point, or thinks it is unimportant, but that is the way it is.

It is of no interest to me what level of educational attainment anybody achieves, but the relevance is that I am not likely to be sitting next to anybody through one of these programmes, that hasn't realized the importance of achieving the best results they can.

The advice I give on here, is exactly the same advice I would give my own family. Take it or leave it. It is free, however it is qualified.

[Bealzebub]

But it proves my point, you don't need fantastic examination results like you claim.

Hold on while I read this thread again and see where I did say that.......
Nope can't find it! However what I did say was this.......
An employer expects to see education certification that is usually better than average. Young people in particular, have very little substance with which to pad out their CV's, and inevitably their educational achievements are going to play a significant part in how they present themselves.

As I say, look at the easyJet, Flybe and a few other airlines requirements for their cadet programmes and they are GCSE's, a BASIC education qualification... And yes people have acquired places on these courses with these qualifications...

I don't need to. I only need to look at our own. Much of the criteria is laid down by the FTO's themselves, and the end results are as I have described.
If you think weak educational attainments are a positive or something that is ignored, I am afraid you are deluding yourself, and attempting to delude others.

you stated that.......
I know some guys who fly for major UK airlines and they don't even have GCSE's so I wouldn't stress about it if I was you...

These "guys" are not likely to be young people coming through the highly competitive world of the airline cadet programmes. Certainly not ours, and despite your anecdotal suggestions to the contrary, I doubt that of most other airlines.

That's all I have to say about the matter...

I doubt that. ;)

[TeaTowel]

A new demographic of degree-holders is quickly emerging. These new ones only use their degrees to fill a gap on their CV and to get themselves past a HR filter.:ugh: 2-3 years down the line the 80% of that knowledge acquired in Uni to achieve that degree that HR creamed themselves over has all but vanished.

Hopefully as technology improves, HR will be able to process more candidates as humans and remove such filters.