Malaya pre '62?

[deltahot]

I'm a bit new to all this, but enjoyed the Borneo thread so wondered if any computer-literate octogenarians out there can go back to Malaya (ok, West Malaysia now but not then).

This would be 194/110 Squadrons, KL then Butterworth, challenging wooden-bladed Sycamores and 'proper' Whirlwinds with pistons. They were Whirlwind 4s, and we all had mahogany-coloured right forearms (Willy4arms) from flying with sleeves rolled up (naughty) and an open window.

Here's a bit about that quirky Sycamore ... it had a very small and intimate 5-seat cockpit/cabin, all ahead of the C of G. The left seat was usually turned backward, 3 folding canvas bucket seats across the back. I still remember the distinctive smell of a patrol extracted after 10 days in the jungle and of one which included a tracker dog (German Shepherd/Alsation type) facing rearwards towards its handler, but squirming astern until its backside was parked firmly on the base of my collective lever ... couldn't take hand off lever to push the dog off because we would have fallen out of the sky when the lever dropped, and anyway pushing hard up backside of unsuspecting Alsation not best option in confined area, so had to hold up serious weight for some time until staggered out of clearing and Iban handler realised what I was shouting about.

Happy days

DH

[Old-Duffer]

You might find that the RAF Historical Society journals, which cover their seminars and which are available to view through the RAF Museum website, would provide some interesting reading.

Journal No: 25 covers the Helicopter in RAF Service. It starts with a bit of pre history, moves on through the Casualty Evacuation Flight aka 194 Sqn and stops in about 1980 or so. There are papers on rotary wing training, SAR and procurement of aircraft.

If you are of that vintage, you will recognise the names of some of those who presented papers to the seminar. There has been a Thread or several on this site in which Tim Carbis and Chick Wittin-Hayden - now both no longer with us - get mentioned.

In addition there are HMSO published accounts of Operation FIREDOG and also RAF Helicopters by John Dowling - he of Coventry Cathedral fame.

Casting forward there are several recently published books about Borneo and a group of 'old' rotaries called - surprisingly - The Old Rotors!

I hope this gets you started but if you need any other steers and think I can help, please say so.

Old Duffer

[deltahot]

Thank you for that Old Duffer. I have John Dowling's history, and indeed remember him - did he not once famously say there are no manual control loads on the Belvedere that the average pilot cannot handle? ... and then arrive at one Farnborough display in a 70 deg nose up attitude with a load of troops in a heap down the back? Maybe not.

I may be too late to provoke some nostalgic memories on this thread. Can I name names? Boss Frank B, later Cedric S, Taff W, George P, Deke B, Digger B, Tom B, Tom S, Pete L, Paul G ... I'd better stop. Several for sure have passed on and are up there out of ground effect now.

One of the gems of tasks back then was a 2- or 3-day run around the Police Force jungle forts and a few LZs with a civvie doctor (doc Bolton) when he re-visited aboriginal villages where he had set up a small dispensary and a local man - sporadic UHF comms in the valleys and total freedom to complete the task on your own, night stopping at one or other of the fort strips, excellent local curries washed down with Tiger beer. Which reminds me - doing just that on a verandah one evening surrounded by jungle sounds when there was a whispered word "rimau" and I found myself alone. I have never since forgotten the Malay word for tiger. "Satu ampat jalan" worked well for us as "1 4 the road" too.

Time to go.

DH

[Old-Duffer]

Sorry to be stuffy about these things deltahot but you forgot 155 Sqn!

[barit1]

Same period, same location (or close), different aeroplane:

I once was an eager historian on the Lockheed model 12, a small twin that predated the similar Beech 18. One I recall finding some data on one that operated for Malayan carrier(s), and it was written off at Bukit Besi (a district of KL?).

Any clues?

[deltahot]

Quite right Old-Duffer, I just wanted to start something for that era and was hazy on detail. Now done homework ... after sort of mastering the Sycamore at S Cerney, I arrived at KL in 1959 after a few weeks embarkation leave in UK, dealing only with the movers, via a prolonged flight in a Britannia to Changi, then a wonderful clattering train journey to that fabulous rail station at KL. I was posted to 194, but was greeted on arrival with "but your posting was cancelled, there is no 194 Sqn". The Sycamores had been grounded for weeks by then, 155 Sqn had been disbanded, and 110 Sqn formed with, presumably, 155's Whirlwind 4s. I was lucky to get my feet under the table as 110's adjutant and not be sent home and thus had my only 3 months ground tour in 38 years of the RAF ... not too arduous, I seem to remember mainly writing Squadron Routine Orders, cranking some antiquated telephone and bellowing down a line to FEAF Headquarters down in Singapore. I got a fair bit of unloggable time in the Whirlwind and eventually a formal conversion, and we got a proper adj. Then we all moved after a few months up to Butterworth with the Aussies, lived on Penang, greeted "Merdeka", and had the best 3 years of my life.

We operated the Whirlwinds for a bit, then the Sycamore's problems were resolved. As I was by then one of a few theoretically qualified on them, I had several trips down to, I think, Seletar to ground run the beasts ... some right rocking and rolling ensued to get those blades back in track (there was a flat plate attached to the top of the cyclic with a sheet of paper on, and you held a pencil on it to trace the crazy antics of the feedback, manual controls of course, to give some sort of trace to get an initial coarse tracking correction). And then the Whirlwinds were replaced by the Sycamores once again, and they were amazingly reliable.

DH

[Brian Abraham]

barit1, story on the link. Did a small amount of flying in this very aircraft as a snotty teenager when owned by BHP, and in their other Lockheed 12 VH-ABH, which is still flying in the hands of a private owner in Queensland. Father was responsible for arrangements when they visited town, and the pilots used to dine at home, hence the rides when they were able.

VH-ASG (http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austa2/VH-ASG.html)

[Old-Duffer]

Well Deltahot, you've gotta write all this stuff down, it's too valuable to lose and I know that there are several plans afoot to get some books of memories over the years, prepared and published for the centenary in 2018 - of course there might not be an air force by then but that's another issue!

Frank Barnes has now left us and so, I think, has Cedric. If the Paul G you mention went on to command the Belvedere squadron - 66 - then he is very much still around and lives near High Wycombe. Likewise, if you meant Tom Blackwood, who sold me an insurance policy when I was a snotty youth at T/H, then he has also departed for better things.

As to the Belvedere arriving with a nose up and a pile of soldiers sliding none too gracefully down the steeply sloping cabin, there is a photograph of that which may have been on this site a while ago.

Keep the stories coming - this Thread has a long way to run yet!!

Old Duffer

[Sultan Ismail]

Bukit Besi

With reference to post #5, Bukit Besi is a hill (bukit) 3NMs to the South East of the original Kuala Lumpur Airport at Sungai Besi.

It is the reporting point for all routes arriving from the South and East.

I flew past it today and reported to Simpang Tower "North of Bukit Besi, One Thousand Five Hundred Feet", with return "call Downwind 22 for Visual Approach"

The airport and the airport has changed a little bit from your Malaya days, danger now comes from the Petronas Twin Towers and a billboard less than half a wingspan from the runway edge of the 22 threshold. The billboard is about 60 feet high.

For someone into the eighth decade it certainly keeps me awake in the circuit.

[deltahot]

O-D you are right about Paul G, and very close with Tom B, but mine was/isTom Browning. Oddly enough, it was the tall Pete L who sold me an insurance policy at TH when I was being turned into a QHI.
More anon.

Sultan, was Bukit Besi created from the spoil of what I vaguely remember as a seriously deep quarry not too far East of Simpang? Anyone know what caused the crash of that very nice looking Lockheed 12? And congratulations on still flying yourself around at that age - I couldn't afford it, and the RAF wouldn't keep me beyond 57ish.

DH

[deltahot]

I wrote this in a Flight Sim forum, so it was easy to copy, and yes I know that if you have flown the old Sycamore you will need no reminder of what came naturally but to younger drivers it may be of interest.

So this early RAF helicopter from the 50s, the Sycamore, was a manual machine, no hydraulic controls, optimised for cruise with the cyclic stick central and the fuselage level. For aerodynamic reasons a basic chopper will roll towards the advancing side of the disc in forward flight, and this clever chopper had a built in correction which applied a left tilt to the disc to compensate as the stick went forward. This meant that in any condition other than the cruise it was anything but optimal – take-off had to start with the stick way back (to get the fuselage to ‘sit up’ level for a vertical lift off) which would give an unwanted roll to the right so the stick had also to be held way over to the left as the lift started. Then as the fuselage sat up the stick had to go forward and right towards central again to get a clean vertical lift-off, while playing a fine dance with the throttle and collective lever in the left hand with feet on the tail rotor pedals counteracting the yaw from the changing torque. In a tight clearing on a log platform or sloping ground this mattered a lot. Optimum rotor rpm in the hover and for climb out was 270. The throttle, like a motorcycle twist-grip on the end of the collective, was interconnected so that it was increased as the collective was raised, and vice versa, but not precisely. Starting at 270 rpm, raising the collective gave too much throttle initially, so the throttle had to be backed off to keep the revs constant, then rolled on again for the latter half of the take-off. The Sycamore had only a central collective lever - instructing from the left seat was challenging, sharing the same throttle in the 'wrong' hand.

I could ramble on about performance out of hot, still, humid, jungle LZs, but this was way before Vietnam and Hueys and readers of Chickenhawk and similar accounts would be seriously unimpressed, so perhaps not.

DH

[barit1]

Brian and Sultan, many thanks for the great replies on the lovely Lockheed! The article Bill Larkins and I wrote for AAHS is now 39 years old, and could stand an update I guess...

[Warmtoast]

As to the Belvedere arriving with a nose up and a pile of soldiers sliding none too gracefully down the steeply sloping cabin, there is a photograph of that which may have been on this site a while ago.

Photo can be seen here:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/483902-coventry-cathedral-belvedere-footage.html

[Old-Duffer]

deltahot et al,

I don't know if you were at Tern Hill or even Ternhill, when the Sycamore was finally chucked away as a training aircraft.

The control antics to which you refer also applied when hovering out of wind: eg, if the wind was from the quarter, then the cyclic had to be used to compensate for the tipping moment. This could lead quickly to running out of cyclic control authority and was the cause of several accidents within a few weeks during the Spring of 1966.

In one of these, the aircraft rolled over and the blades smashed themselves to pieces, other damage was sustained and the engine badly shock loaded. When all was quiet, the two pilots extricated themselves with the guy who was 'on top' being somewhat annoyed when his colleague stepped on his head as he clambered to get out ASAP.

The Sycamore, which went on to give several more good years of service as a comms aircraft, was taken out of service as a trainer and replaced by the the Sioux.

As an aside, the Sycamore also had an interesting method of trimming. This involved IIRC, a tank which contained fluid (water??) and this was pumped fore and aft as the need arose to help trim the beast. A couple or more years ago, I stood in the display hall at the AAC Museum at Middle Wallop whilst two former QHIs, both clutching their logbooks, had an argument about how much juice this tank contained and which switches to use to pump it. As an ancient Hoverfly pilot (that's both the Hoverfly and the pilot, BTW!) said; 'In my day, we used to move some house bricks from underneath the back seats, before we took off'!

Old Duffer

[deltahot]

Yes O-D. Only a couple of gallons of fluid in the trim tanks I think, the rear one was way back in the tail cone and a few pounds there, or not there, made a significant difference to the C of G. The selector was a small lever, ergonomically correct, i.e. fwd, off, aft, but the pumping rate was slow - if you were one of several choppers in a troop lift out of an LZ with room for only one at a time, trick was to start pumping aft before touchdown, staying just within controllable limits, load up and lift off before next chopper arrived, rather than sit on pad waiting.

I think there was a gauge to show where the fluid was, there was certainly a mechanical indicator of where your cyclic was for more accurate trimming. Stick force trimming was by 2 nice wheels, lateral and fore and aft, to adjust spring tension on the cyclic.

The older Dragonfly definitely had a weight which was hooked on, externally at the front if you were solo I think, but I never flew them, although there was at least one at S Cerney when I first went there.

I had left TernHill before the Sycamores went ... off to Culdrose with the Navy for 3 years instructing on their 705 Sqn. That was a good tour, Whirlwind 3, 7, and the little Hiller12, often all in one day. Knew more RN pilots than RAF for years after.

Back to Malaya ... our flying kit was jungle green shirt and trousers, and those soooo comfortable green jungle boots, soft, high ankles, long lace-up, brilliant. Same for you out of Seletar/Borneo later??? Next best flying boot was the desert boot (Khormaksar, Aden, later still. Maybe another thread).

DH

[Fareastdriver]

When I was in Labuan in 1966 one of our more experienced pilots was Charly Verry who was ex Dragonflys. He said that you could recognise one of their number by the noise of their left hand knuckles dragging along the ground. He told me this Dragonfly story.

He went into an area of cleared forest to pick up an Army Major. The passenger arrived with his briefcase and climbed in the back. On lifting off the pad it seemed as this briefcase was packed with gold because he immediately ran out of forward cyclic. He managed to fly around this clearing in a circle shouting at this major to throw the bag out but he wasn't letting go. After two very slow circuits he persuaded the major to jump out at the pad and control was restored.

The Sycamore, as a trainer, was probably the best helicopter trainer going. Fly that, you can fly anything.

26 pints/pounds in the trimming tank rings a bell.

[deltahot]

Well Fareastdriver I'm surprised I didn't know or know of Charly Verry from that era - I have read that story about the Dragonfly somewhere though - not a lot of fun whizzing around a jungly hole with crazy C of G and cyclic hard forward (or back). Just a suspicion here - were you on early jets ... Meteors, Vampires?

I think I have definitely left it a bit late to trigger responses from anyone from 110 in my Penang days ... I guess many have passed on or are not computer savvy or have not found this brilliant site. It's clearly been going for years but took me long enough to come across it and there is just so much stuff here. Might have to try Aden 5 years on ...

Penang then was just idyllic to live on - most of us had little 50cc Hondas or similar and commuted daily to Butterworth on the mainland via ferries - there's a huge bridge there now of course. Night ops didn't happen. Daughter went to a boarding school up in the cool of the Cameron Highlands. Drove down the West coast for a shared holiday with George Puddy and his family (I know George has passed on) on Pankor Island - maybe 8 wooden beach chalets then, mega resort now.

Sorry, supposed to be about flying innit. That old Sycamore, unusually even now I suspect, had quite a large operating range of rotor rpm ... max was 287, 270 for hover/climb, cruise 250 or even less. With the usual lack of performance from heat/humidity, in a higher altitude LZ when boost became limited you could wind on the extra rrpm and maybe get an extra inch of boost pressure, then overpitch down to 270 from 287 and get a nice kick of lift. That Leonides was amazingly reliable, only remember one letting go on Boss Cedric in the bottom of a clearing, and he just slumped onto the rough ground. Took days to enlarge the hole enough to get spares and a working party in to do the engine change though.

Ok, that's enough.

DH

[sycamore]

FED &DH, overpitch RRPM 287; de-icing fluid in the `C oG Compensator,60lbs; front tank 5 1/2 gals.rear 5 3/4 gals; 3 1/2 mins to pump all aft/f`rd, 2lbs aft per 5gals fuel used......Oh the joys of ground resonance...Syc..

[deltahot]

Syc... wow! Did you look that up or re-live it? Or does it just stay there forever like 26750, 710, 3200/2700.

DH

[Fareastdriver]

- were you on early jets ... Meteors, Vampires?

Not quite. I trained on them and then Auntie Betty put me on Tankers so I could see the world at her expense. When they folded I, like many others, were drafted to helicopters to fill a void that was opening up in FEAF and ex 2TAF squadrons operating in Borneo. So we all went from 120 to M0.84 to -30 to 120.

Never regretted it thought; I have had the time of anybody's life.

[Cornish Jack]

Oh! the nostalgia!!:sad:
Lots of names there from happy, happy times:) George Puddy was my Boss at TH and again in Akrotiri - Drums on Xmas Day and then back to his place for mince pies and Seasonal cheer. Arrived at TH and saw a familiar face that I couldn't place - Naval Lt Cdr, Chief Instructor on the QHI training flight. Eventually introduced as Pete Rover and CLICK!! last seen, flown with as a Fl Lt Crab Nav on Valettas in Aden!. He had applied for crossover training with the light blues but was turned down! Applied to the opposition and was embraced and demonstrated that they (RAF) had got it wrong! Nothing new there then:E
Regards to any/all from that era.

[deltahot]

".... I have had the time of anybody's life..."

Well that's two of us. Weren't we lucky.

Here's a silly story, bordering on the farcical.
Malaya, Sycamore, on the Fort Express run, landed in newly cleared area close to aborigine village for Doc Bolton to spend a couple of hours dispensing palliatives and friendship in a new area. Lovely big site, no logs but lot of dust/debris kicked up - pax disembarked and as was SOP left both rear doors open (and out of my reach) while I kept rotor turning/engine running for the standard couple of minutes to stabilise temps. I became aware of small debris still flying about, then (ouch) decided I was under serious hornet attack. If you know those hornets, you will understand my concern. Pulled fuel cut-off, slammed on rotor brake, leapt out and ran ... sheer panic now, can feel stings on face and elsewhere, no-one in sight, so ran downhill thinking river/water get in/under, but en route came across doc's newly built dispensary (6'x4' wriggly tin hut), dived inside slammed door. Panic slowly subsided, found a couple of small bees for company, investigated stings and found dozens of little barbs embedded in shirt which were just touching my skin but no more. Face hurt though, and when courage returned and walked back to chopper found loads of these dead little bees littering the ground. Hornets were wholly imagined.

Still had next day's tasking with the doc, who took one look at my face (I'd only got two stings on cheek) and said anti-histamine would be good - but I don't have any. Back at base next day, cheek bouncing as I walked, eye half closed, met with mirth and total lack of sympathy "what happened to you then?".... don't ask.

DH

[roving]

Mention here of Frank Barnes, brings back memories from my childhood in KL. He was OC 194 when my father was Flight Commander of 267. One of 267's pilots overturned a single engine pioneer into the trees on take off from a jungle fort ... Fort Langkap. My father wanted to see if it could be extricated and Frank flew him in to have a close look. There was a problem on the Sycamore and they crash landed through jungle trees close to the pioneer.

My father, always keen to take photographs took one of Frank grinning through the front of the downed Sycamore. Sadly I do not have immediate access to the photographs of either of the Pioneer or the Sycamore or Frank Barnes.

I have a varnished spa from the Sycamore on which Frank had written 'in memory of our arrival in Fort Langkap.

I was talking to my father about this incident shortly before he died in 2007. He said he was flying again 24 hours later.

Frank was later promoted to Wing Commander and my father came out in 1961, becoming chief pilot for Marshalls at Shawbury.

This page details the loss of both the SEP on 10 April 1958 and the Sycamore on 16 April 1958.

UK Military Aircraft Losses (http://www.ukserials.com/losses-1958.htm)

[roving]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/leedskier/file_zpse09d2943.jpg


This photograph is on jungle training course. Frank Barnes is third from the right on the third row from the bottom, my father wearing a beret on the left on the back row.

[roving]

Third from the right on the back row of that photograph with the upturned hat is N.E.F. (Ted) Hart. He really was a character.

He was a former jet pilot and flying with 267. His main claim to fame and history is that he was also a war museum photographer. Google 'HART N E F' and one sees a long list of his photographs. Following KL, he was promoted and posted to Christmas Island in 1959. Not a good a time to be there.

The Gazette records his retirement as a S.L.

N. E. F. HART (193005). 27th May 1963.

[Postfade]

I've got a few photos of 110 Sqdn Sycamores...sorry if I've posted them before (I forget!):
This first one is at Butterworth...three Sycamores doing what the jet boys do, a 'break to land'.
Well you would want to show off in front of those Aussie's wouldn't you!
http://www.focalplanes.co.uk/uploaded_images/62_08-F4-24-Three-Sycamores-of-110-Sqn-break-to-land-at-Butterworth-S472B.jpg
Here's a sequence of the C-in-C leaving Changi:
http://www.focalplanes.co.uk/uploaded_images/62_08-F3-21-S03-Sycamore-XL822-waits-for-a-VIP.jpg
http://www.focalplanes.co.uk/uploaded_images/62_08-F3-21-S04-Sycamore-XL822-prepares-to-leave.jpg
http://www.focalplanes.co.uk/uploaded_images/62_08-F3-22S05-Sycamore-XL822-takes-off-with-the-VIP-the-C-in-C-on-board.jpg
And a couple parked after arrival for the September 1962 Battle-of-Britain display at Changi.
http://www.focalplanes.co.uk/uploaded_images/62_09-BoB27-2-Sycamores-of-110-sqn-XJ918-and-XG519-SS208A-HR.jpg
A silly question by the way...the Sycamores were painted yellow overall weren't they?

By the way I've finally got around to uploading many of my Changi photos from 61-64 on my website FOCAL PLANES | AIRCRAFT PHOTOS- FROM RAF CHANGI and SINGAPORE IN THE 1960's (http://www.focalplanes.co.uk). They're in the galleries section. Many more to do though and I really ought to 'blog' more than I do as well.
David Taylor

[deltahot]

Yes Postfade those 110 Sqn Sycamores were certainly all yellow. Quite reassuring over all that green stuff, and no one was shooting at us in my time from '59 to '62.

[teejat]

I remember being the pilot flying 822 with the cinc I also flew it under the instruction of the legendary Bill Barrell on Ops conversion in Bongsu. I also had the tail rotor depart the aircraft while flying over the cabbage near Grik happy days

[pjac]

Try "Terbung"

[rotorfossil]

deltahot.
To be pedantic (and I'm good at that), my memory of the Sycamore was that the cyclic had to back and right to get the disc level for lift, then back to the centre (ish) as it tilted back and lifted off. So I had a look at the Pilot's Notes which I still have, and yup, it's back and right.
For those old Whirlwind drivers out there, the last flyable Whirlwind 10 is coming out of hibernation again and should be flying in the near future in it's 22 Sqn. SAR colours. Assuming the paperwork ever gets completed!
No doubt all the memories will come flooding back, the chronic backache, the sore left knee, the crick in the neck from looking under the bar across the windscreen and the hot/frozen right shoulder. Oh the joys of Whirlwind ergonomics.

[sycamore]

RF, well I hope it is still in as good a condition as it was when I last flew it on 17 Dec 1981...official grounding of WWs 16 Dec,blade change and track,inexplicably got `resonance`,so just had to lift off,as you do,to sort it out...SEngo not amused,but then,some gingerbeers have little empathy .....

[rotorfossil]

Incidentally I understand that the Red Bull Museum has got the last Sycamore airborne again. It was the one that was down at the Altenrhein museum in Switzerland.