Cpl Wearing Pilot Wings

[knarfw]

Can anybody shed any light on the Cpl pictured here, taken at RCAF Station Goose Bay? We're assuming he is ex wartime aircrew and has re-enlisted.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/946777_10151600260839248_1792519536_n.jpg

[sisemen]

I remember an older looking SAC at Hereford when I was in training in 1963 and he had pilot wings and oodles of medals.

[500N]

knarfw

The two holding rank look older than the rest.

Don't the medals give you an idea ?

[knarfw]

Yeah, as I said, we're assuming that they both re-enlisted.

[500N]

knarf

Do you reckon this is some of the same group at a later date ?

http://www.winnipegacc.org/pages/index14/14_yr_6318staff.jpg

[Robert Cooper]

There were also SACs with pilot wings and medals at RAF Hornchurch in 1956 when I was going through the Aircrew Selection process.

Bob C

[The Oberon]

There was a Cpl. supplier worked in ESG at Akers in the late 60's. He had wings and a chest full of medals, rumour had it he was also on first name terms with the Staish.

[4Greens]

My instructor in the late 50's was a Sergeant pilot and very good he was. I gave a party to celebrate getting my wings. Had to have it off base as I couldn't use the Officers mess.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I'm not sure if it's relevant but my Dad knew an SAC with a pilots brevet. The former Sgt pilot had been demoted for being a bad lad and rejoiced in the fact that "they" could take away his chevrons but couldn't take away his "qualification".

[Pontius Navigator]

Cpl Steward at Silloth about 1957-58. Remember there were over a million airmen just 10 years or so previously followed by the demob. Then, come Korea and the Cold War there was a post-war expansion in many air forces but in contrast there were probably less civilian jobs, certainly not jobs offering the same excitement as the Services. Re-enlisting was quite common. I think even previously commissioned officers rejoined as rankers.

[BBadanov]

I was at the Pakistani AF base at Rawalpindi in 1978, and went into Base Ops to file a flight plan. There was a WOFF behind the counter wearing a DFC ribbon. "Gosh", I thought. The next day I went back in and there were two SGTS, and they too had DFCs. "Hang on" I thought, "not all Paks could be this sharp?" Then it occurred to me that SGTs can't have DFCs, and I finally NB'd that they didn't have wings!

It turned out the ribbon was the Pakistani National Medal, for 10 or 15 years service. Looking carefully you could see the colour was in fact a very dark green, with white diagonal stripes (the Pakistani national colours).

The story was that the design of the ribbon had been a parting shot at the Brits, so that all the locals could wear DFCs !!

[Old-Duffer]

The posts about re-enlistment are likely to be correct. However, there were also cases where some aircrew remained in the service but did not stay as aircrew in 1946, when the war substantive system ended. These people went into ground trades, retained their flying badges but not necessarily - unlikely in fact - their former (war substantive) rank.

The RAF introduced the new trade structure which graded aircrew NCOs differently. This used the names 'X' cadet, IV, III, II, I and Master 'X', where 'X' equals an aircrew skill eg pilot, navigator. The badges of rank were a laurel wreath with various stars and an eagle. The whole thing was massively unpopular and in 1951, the RAF went back to traditional ranks with just the Master Aircrew title and badge surviving.

The 1951 trade structure also split ground NCOs into technical and command streams, brought in the ranks of senior aircraftman, junior, corporal, senior, chief and master technician and brought in List One and Two Trades. Aircrew got their stripes back and technicians wore theirs with the point of the chevrons uppermost.

That structure ended on 1 April 1964 when, inter alia, Aircraftman/woman 2nd Class was abolished as well.

Old Duffer (formerly AC2 Young Duffer)

[Wander00]

ISTR stories of aircrew grounded for LMF having rank badges and brevets removed, but the guys made to wear the jacket still showing where they had been removed, pour encourager les autres.

[Tankertrashnav]

The rank badges Old duffer described in his post on the post-war aircrew rank structure are amazingly scarce. In thirty years of dealing in militaria I was always on the lookout for these but I dont think I ever managed to get hold of one. I did see a full set being offered at a militaria fair once for an astonishing price. I did however once have a GSM named to an "S 2 Bloggs, R.A.F." (Flight Sergeant Signaller).

When I was a rockape we had a squadron leader with pilot's wings - I think he was WW2 vintage, had gone out and come back in later but wasn't accepted as aircrew second time around, but of course was still entitled to wear his wings.

[sled dog]

SAC on 64 Sqdn Binbrook early 60s had wings, having qualified as a glider pilot early 1945, later re-enlisting as a rigger.

[Dunky]

I was at someone's house a few years ago who had been a Sgt aircrew, IIRC he was a Nav. When they decided all aircrew should be commissioned, he went to bed one day as a Sgt, and woke up the next day with a commission. He had all his old log books which he showed me, they made interesting reading.

[SOSL]

There used to be scheme in the '60s and '70s under which a handful of engineering officers were selected for pilot training, if successful they went on to do one full flying tour and then returned to engineering duties, complete with their wings. Although they remained in the engineering branch for the rest of their careers they tended to do rather well on the promotion ladder.

Rgds SOS

[The Helpful Stacker]

SOSL - Was the unfortunate chap who went for an unplanned flight in a Lightning at RAF Lyneham one of those pilot-trained engineering officers?

[airborne_artist]

STR stories of aircrew grounded for LMF having rank badges and brevets removed, but the guys made to wear the jacket still showing where they had been removed, pour encourager les autres. We wore wings on woolly-pullies in barracks until a new CO arrived. He demanded they were removed.

We all left on the press-studs used to attach them. He saw the funny side ;)

[TBM-Legend]

My old associate LAC Eddy Eyers, RAAF. Halifax and Wellington pilot....

[Wander00]

HS - no he was not but had ISTR Chipmunk and other light aircraft experience

[Whenurhappy]

In the RNZAF, General Service Hands were aircraftsmen & women employed in menial duties (stewards, batmen, messengers, gash hands, storemen, drivers etc...). They were Territorial Air Force and therefore could not be deployed or posted away, but they could also be discharged with 2 week's notice and serve to 65. In effect, a very useful bunch of guys and girls, and almost all of them were ex-Service (quite a few ex RAF).

I recall in 1985, as an Officer Cadet, we ate in the Airmen's Mess at RNZAF Wigram for the first couple of weeks. On one occasion, everyone was in SDs (No 3s, out there) and there were at least two GSHs wearing war-time medal ribbons and one had a Navigator's brevet. He was the Base Messenger, IIRC and I remember seeing him in shirt-sleeves, pedalling around on his delivery bike with a highly polished metal brevet, polished to the point that the letter 'N' was no longer distinguishable. I'm sure that there are one or two PPruners who might remember the chap. Joe, I think, was his name.

[dragartist]

SOSL,
Sir Colin Terry was one of those Engineers who had wings through the scheme you mention. he told me all about it when I attended a presentation to a good mate of his award for Airworthines at BZN circa 2004 ish. At the time he had retired form the Cheif Engineers job and held VR Flying Officer tabs providing Air Experience for cadets and UAS or something. He had shed the gold braid. It was odd seeing him alongside my Gp Capt in the photo shoot.

Now I found him a nice guy but some I worked with who had fallen foul of his temper in the past thought othrewise. He was a Director of Meggitt at the time and offered his assistance to my project. A few weeks after we met at the Farnborough Airshow in the Meggit challet. True to his word he made it known to the Meggit guys that he was aware of our project. They did not let us down! Perhaps they knew of his reputation for not taking prisoners!

[Jamieone]

Re: the scheme for engineers, did a similar scheme ever exist for other branches? ISTR my old man (medical branch) talking about doctors in the 50's and 60's having the opportunity to get some form of flying training (to wings standard?).

I know he was encouraged to fly as often as he could during his time in the 80s and has an enviable record of pax trips. Shame he hates flying really...!:O

[Tankertrashnav]

Dunky - I'm pretty sure that post WW2 no-one ever went to bed as a sergeant and woke up with a commission unless they had spent the previous few months at Henlow, Feltwell or wherever. There were quite a few NCO/Master Aircrew on my OCTU course at Feltwell in 1964 all of whom had to work for their commissions like the rest of us, although I have to admit they did better, on average, than those who had come in straight from civilian life. During training they wore no badges of rank and were classified as officer cadets (aircraftman equivalent), although they continued to be paid at the rate of their former rank.

[SOSL]

Yes, there was also a similar scheme for doctors. I knew one of them quite well. He later specialised in aviation medicine. Well you would wouldn't you?

I don't think there was a similar scheme for any other ground branches, but there was always a steady trickle of ground branch JOs applying to re-muster into the GD branch, some of whom went on to be well regarded aviators.

Also, when the GD branch was opened to women (1985 IIRC) there was a small surge of women in ground branches applying to join. I remember one of them from my own station, at the time.

When her application reached her Wg Cdr (ground branch), he interviewed her and suggested that she would never make a pilot as long as she possessed a certain bodily orifice.

She went on to fly C130 for many years!

Rgds SOS

[Pontius Navigator]

I was at someone's house a few years ago who had been a Sgt aircrew, IIRC he was a Nav. When they decided all aircrew should be commissioned, he went to bed one day as a Sgt, and woke up the next day with a commission. He had all his old log books which he showed me, they made interesting reading.

We had two u/t sgt nav on our nav course. One was an ex-maritime siggy and he went back to Shacks as a sgt nav in 1965 and the other was an ex-airman. With a little bit of sharp pencilling (by the staff) he came out top of the nav course but still as a sgt. They gave him the boost to help on his route to a commission.

As both had done a full 12 months nav course with a predominantly officer course it may have been judged that they had had sufficient training for a quick laying on of hands. I met the latter in the club many years later but didn't ask him when he got his commission.

Later, in 1967, we had a couple of sgt nav, remustered to ops SNCOs as their flying opportunities had ceased. I think they had forgone flying pay. They certainly worked down to their pay grade rather than up to their skill level and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. They had had too many bollockings for 'exceeding their authority'. Sad really.

[Halton Brat]

Halton, early 1970's - Cpl receptionist in Dental Centre, wearing Pilot's wings & replete with WW2 gongs.

Also, my first Eng O at Valley in '73 wore wings.

HB

[Whenurhappy]

Sir Colin has quite a reputation for being, amongst other things, forthright. I was SDO at Benson c 1997 when I learned that Sir Colin was in-bound to fly at the AEF. He arrived late and I met him in my No 1s. He was surprisingly down-to-earth and expected no extra attention. We happendd to know each other from teh RAFSA fraternity. More recently (last year), I ran into him at the RAF Club and it was he that recognised me...

[Dunky]

Dunky - I'm pretty sure that post WW2 no-one ever went to bed as a sergeant and woke up with a commission unless they had spent the previous few months at Henlow, Feltwell or wherever. There were quite a few NCO/Master Aircrew on my OCTU course at Feltwell in 1964 all of whom had to work for their commissions like the rest of us, although I have to admit they did better, on average, than those who had come in straight from civilian life. During training they wore no badges of rank and were classified as officer cadets (aircraftman equivalent), although they continued to be paid at the rate of their former rank. It was a few years ago so I probably forgot the exact details. Interesting info though :ok:

[Ron Cake]

TANKERTRASHNAV

I too knew a rock ape with pilots wings-- he was my dad.
He was a QFI but at the end of the war was one of many deemed to be superflous. So they were given a choice - Admin, Provost, Catering ,Padre, Supply or RAF Regiment. Being an outdoor sporty type he opted for the The Regiment and had a great time. 2 Armoured Car - Habbaniya, Adj at RAF Watchet, 40mm bofors school (bet you never head of that place) and later a Field Squadron at Celle. I followed his career closely -because I HAD TO -I was dragged around these places as a school boy. I retained a regard for the Regiment because I met some real characters over the years - But it not for me -far too energetic

[floppyjock]

I remember passing through Middle Wallop in the late 90s and saw a RAF Cpl on the Army pilots course.

Floppy

[The Oberon]

The O.P's photo being taken at Goose Bay must be unique, I have several photos taken at Goose Bay, none of which I would dare to publish.

[diginagain]

The AAC ran with the concept of Corporal Pilots for a while in the late 1980s. Not universally popular, but it did result in some raised eyebrows when two of us pitched-up at Gutersloh in a Lynx.

[floppyjock]

I was a Cpl pilot in the 90s and they were still running with the concept in 00when I left. As far as I know they still are.

floppy

[diginagain]

As a money-saving scheme it's clearly a winner.

[knarfw]

500N, I'll post that pic on our group and see if Edith, who was an LACW medic married to one of the LACs pictured, recognises anyone.

[500N]

knarfw

Did you get the names of all the people as well ?

She might recognise a name ?

[500N]

Knarfw

Here are the names anyway, it might help you.

I THINK the guy you are talking about if they are the same group
is Phil Bergenham.

Summer 1963, a Goose Bay ATC staff picture. Ron Hay provides the names:
Front row - L to R: Phil Bergenham (VR), Joe Kovalenko (EG), Elmer Tomecek (WG), Eric Staples supervisor(QM), Len Kalicheck (EG), "Doc" Elliot (UL)
Back row, left to right; our secretary Alberta Vautour, George Machum (QM) Chief, Irv Simmons, supervisor (QX), Sid Bowers (QM), Ken Vryenhoek (VR) and Henry Boduc (UL).

[Tankertrashnav]

Ron Cake - Very interesting, I wonder if he was the bloke I remembered in the mid 60's? I cant for the life of me remember his name but he was a wiry fit looking bloke as I recall. If you'd care to PM with the name to jog my memory I can promise I won't be spreading it around the forum!


Adj at RAF Watchet, 40mm bofors school (bet you never head of that place)


Certainly have heard of it - one of my sergeants had been there and was always going on about it!

[Haraka]

Halton, early 1970's - Cpl receptionist in Dental Centre, wearing Pilot's wings & replete with WW2 gongs.

Could have been the same guy as at Sleaford Tech. Dental Centre in 68. In conversation with him it transpired that he had been a Sgt. Pilot on Mustangs who remustered into Dental Tech. post-war as the only opening offered.
As he remarked : " I still have a job where my breakfast is cooked for me every morning"

[teeteringhead]

The old "Aircrew Cadet" badge referred to earlier was this:

http://www.rafweb.org/Uniform_etc/AirCdt.jpg

The others - IV, III, II and I, equivalent to Cpl to FS, with one to three stars and three and a crown, are illustrated here. (http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks6C.htm) As TTN rightly says, as rare as rocking-horse poo these days. The system lasted from 1946-50 only.

[reynoldsno1]

The Slivers were a Belgian Air Force F104 display team - I recall watching a practice display by them at Beauvechain in c.1972. Only 2 ships, very, very low & very, very loud :ok: One of the pilots was a Colonel, the other a Corporal.

[NutLoose]

Probably the pair that did the Odihams families day in about 77, one close to the crowd line and the other above it....... Result, screaming and crying kids all around..


..

[A2QFI]

Not qualified to Wings standard SFAIK - The actual aircraft is at Duxford and their write up says "Luckily Taff had some limited hours on lighter prop-driven trainer aircraft - Tiger Moths, Chipmunks and Harvards - and this experience enabled him to calmly explore the aircraft's handling and make some attempts at landing"

[jimjim1]

View topic - An Inadvertent Flight in an English Electric Lightning (http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5149&sid=562051e794095423cd1875e1f4006a7a)

This is apparently an account in his own electrons which states "allowing me to qualify to 'wings' standard as a pilot".

Astounding anyway.

[DON T]

Halton, early 1970's - Cpl receptionist in Dental Centre, wearing Pilot's wings & replete with WW2 gongs.

Could have been the same guy as at Sleaford Tech. Dental Centre in 68. In conversation with him it transpired that he had been a Sgt. Pilot on Mustangs who remustered into Dental Tech. post-war as the only opening offered.
As he remarked : " I still have a job where my breakfast is cooked for me every morning"

Said Cpl was Pop Newton and he qualified in Canada just as WWII ended.

The Dental Branch at Halton at the same time had a Cpl Alf Holdham who had the MM and BEM and wore a purple medal ribbon above his Cpl stripes. The MM and BEM were awarded while he was a WO in the Gloucestershire Regt in Korea where he was captured. The purple ribbon was for a Presidential Citation by the USA for helping their troops while in captivity. Alf never did a parade because in them days he always had more medals than the inspecting officer. His car was a Morris Minor painted sky blue with white doors, looked like a police panda car.:)

[500N]

Did the OP find out any more about the original photo ?

[Tashengurt]

I was telling my father about this thread at the weekend and he recounted the tale of a WW2 bomber pilot who, after multiple tours and two DFMs declared he'd had enough and wanted to come off ops.
Apparently he was declared to be LMF and demoted to LAC before being shipped off to some mundane posting.
Story goes that when word got around on his new station of his past deeds airmen insisted on saluting him much to the chagrin of senior bods.
Fact, fiction or somewhere in between?


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[Tashengurt]

Actually. Had he been an occifer he'd have had DFCs? First nail in the tales coffin.


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[langleybaston]

Plenty of officers with DFMs ........... earnd before commission.

Remove nails from coffin.

[Dunky]

I used to get saluted when I wasn't wearing any rank slides, and wasn't entitled to a salute. I of course returned the salute, nothing wrong with being polite, must've just had that look :cool:

[Wander00]

I always liked the story of John Masters, soldier and author, who when a major, acting major general, decided rank slides were superfluous.

[oldmansquipper]

My Flight Sergeant at Waddo in `66 was qualified to SAC level as a Safety Equipment Worker. He had pilots wings and told the story of having qualified right at the end of WWII in Canada, he found he was surplus to requirements, so `they` put him in Air Traffic Control where they discovered, somewhat late, that (Shock horror) he was actually colourblind!

Nice chap though!

OMS

[Tankertrashnav]

I was always told you weren't saluting the individual but the commission they held - ie you were in fact paying respect to the monarch. In that way you didn't have to resent saluting anyone, no matter what a complete arse they were.

There was always a belief that you had to salute the holder of the Victoria Cross, no matter what their rank. I never met one when I was in uniform so I never had to put it to the test, but I doubt if there's any basis to the belief.

[NutLoose]

I believe you are correct on both counts.


There is a widespread though erroneous belief that it is statutory for "all ranks to salute a bearer of the Victoria Cross". There is no official requirement that appears in the official Warrant of the VC, nor in Queen's Regulations and Orders, but tradition dictates that this occurs and as such the Chiefs of Staff will salute a Private awarded a VC or GC.[52]


Victoria Cross - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross)


My understanding of this is that the VC takes precedence for a salute over the Queens commision.My Father used to tell me that just after the war he was stationed in India with the 13th Frontier Force Rifles, and they had a VC holder with them Ali Haider(RIP).Ali would wait around the Officers Mess and delight in seeing the Officers coming out and having to salute him, before he saluted them back!

And way to go

In Johnson Beharrys account of recieving the VC, he says that upon returning to Wellington barracks he was saluted by the CSM,


VC Recipients and Saluting (http://www.arrse.co.uk/military-history-militaria/81866-vc-recipients-saluting.html)



..
.

[ian16th]

I was always told you weren't saluting the individual but the commission they heldCue for true story.

In or about 1958 when Air Marshal Sir Andrew 'Square' McKee was AOC Transport Command. He was one day taking his constitutional around RAF Uphavon. When a lowly Erk, lost in thought, managed to walk past Square, without seeing him or saluting.

Square's shout of 'Airman, come here!' woke up the daydreaming guy, who shivering and quaking as he realised what he had done. Was asked by Square why he hadn't saluted and the guy admitted that he was lost in thought and hadn't seen the AM.

Squares response was; 'I believe you lad, but NEVER, do that to a Pilot Officer!'

[Tashengurt]

I was caught out for not saluting at Swinderby by an officer on a bike who was feckin miles away. I mean, the other side of the ASP! He made a bee line for me to deliver his bollocking.
Of course, my downfall was also not saluting when he reached me. d'oh.


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[NutLoose]

They've built a village on Swinditz domestic site now and bar the odd shed most of the airfield has gone.. I went back several weeks ago, the first time since 76

For what it's worth I still have the joining instructions from 76, my late Mum bless her must have realised the importance to me and saved them all, including my entry photos.

[radar101]

I was caught out for not saluting at Swinderby by an officer on a bike who was feckin miles away. I mean, the other side of the ASP! He made a bee line for me to deliver his bollocking.
Of course, my downfall was also not saluting when he reached me. d'oh.




IOT at Cranditz 1980: Admin Plt Off on moped. Flight of cadets "eyes right" , Plt Off salutes, falls off moped and breaks arm!!

[Tankertrashnav]

Tut tut - Serves him right for not knowing the correct procedure for returning compliments when riding a bicycle (would apply equally to riding a moped).

"An officer who is saluted when riding a bicycle should not return the salute in the normal way but should grasp the handlebars firmly, adopt an upright riding position, then turn his or her head smartly to the left (or right) as appropriate".

Then ride smack into the parked 3 tonner directly in front of him ;)

[Trim Stab]

On a slightly different slant, I recently met an Army Air Corps corporal pilot on Defender who wore the AAC "aircrew" half-wing brevet. He had entered the AAC already holding a fixed-wing CPL/IR and was flying RHS on the Defender, albeit with a qualified army pilot in the LHS as aircraft captain.

[Old-Duffer]

Drifting the Thread still further.

Iraq 1941 and the base at Habbaniya is attacked in the Rhasid Ali affair and the RAF training school set about defending itself - very successfully as it turned out.

On one sortie, the pilot of an Oxford is shot through the heart and killed instantly. A groundcrew corporal takes control of the aircraft and it is landed successfully. The Cpl is awarded subsequently the DFM, which he then wore without a flying badge and inevitably was the target for many an RAF police NCO, convinced he was an imposter or improperly dressed etc etc.

After one such 'inconvenience', he is said to have remarked that he wished he hadn't bothered to take control of the aircraft and had never heard of the bl*&%y medal.

On a similar theme, an RAF doctor; Wing Commander Roland Winfield, was awarded both the DFC and AFC for flying bomber and other operations, as well as aviation medical research. His biography: 'The Sky Belongs To Them' is a fascinating read. Unfortunately, Winfield died quite young but was clearly a remarkable character.

Old Duffer