This is your teenage pilot speaking: 19-year-old is offered job at Ryanair

[future captain]

Teenager offered Ryanair job set to become one of youngest airline pilots ever | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325102/Teenager-offered-Ryanair-job-set-youngest-airline-pilots-ever.html)

Daily Mail have far too much time...Still good on him I guess.

[G-F0RC3]

Good on him. :D

[SefonSA]

Shouldn't the press release be corrected - offered a 'contract' costing EURxxxxx?

Or have Ryanair changed...

[clunk1001]

...and the typo of the year award goes to.... he is thrilled by the prospect of lying passengers to more than a thousand holiday destinations


"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to Duesseldorf....."




...thats if it was a typo

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

The article says that he was offered a job with Jet2, pretty damning for them that he chose Ryanair! Still, good luck to him; he's clearly spent many months, perhaps, even years saving up paper round money to pay for all that training.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Not really. Ryanair offered him a "job" first. With millions of pounds of debt you take the first offer.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

You're right, he says Ryanair, "got back to me first." Guess that means he would rather have gone to Jet2. I guess that you wouldn't expect a 19 year old to be very diplomatic and this one is no exception.

[bluecode]

Well at least he'll have his illusions shattered at an early age giving him plenty of time to change to a better career. The reality of flying for Ryanair will soon turn the dream into a bit of nightmare. He obviously has access to plenty of money so it won't be a problem.

Having spent all that money at the 'prestigious' OAA you might have imagined he would have more choice than have to buy his seat in Ryanair.

I wonder where they'll base him, somewhere far from home no doubt.

[AlexanderH]

anyone who reads anything in the fugin Daily Mail needs their head examined.

[Bearcat F8F]

A friend of mine joined Ryanair at 20 I think. He seems to be quite happy with his job 2 years on.

I think the reality is that if we all had the opportunity to start flying straight after school, we would take it... but instead we start criticizing those that make it because their family's finances allowed for it to happen much earlier than most of us. Jealousy is cruel mistress :ugh:

[fulminn]

blablalblalblablabla, how much do you love talk about bu****it?
this guy simply complete a training course, he get lucky, he pass a selection which the 70% of the person DIDN'T, and now will start to be payed for his professionalism....buy the rhs seat in ryr.....nightmare....and blablabla...there is somebody envious?
keep calm and try to give the same committment of this guy.

[fulminn]

exactly! in my course we are almost all from 1990,89,88,87...the average seems to be 23! but i think nobody can't blame a guys just because he realized his dream...come on!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Bearcat, I'm thankful for my life experience outside of aviation, short as it was. I'm not jealous of the mountain of cash he's had to throw at Ryanair to get a "job" and I wouldn't envy anybody "working" for them.

I enjoy flying with FOs who can talk about something different they've done prior to flying.

[fulminn]

"I enjoy flying with FOs who can talk about something different they've done prior to flying."

ROFL I never seen a more nosense comment than this..

[Bearcat F8F]

Lord Spandex Masher (http://www.pprune.org/members/338808-lord-spandex-masher), I dont see anything nonsense about that unlike fulminn. I agree, additional skills, knowledge and experience may make you a better pilot in the end compared to anyone who left school and ended up in the airlines immediately... although having said that I know I wouldn't have turned down that opportunity to fly from an extremely young age.

Interestingly, all my friends who joined FR are desperate to leave a few years down the line.
Really? I am aware of one other guy who wasn't sure that the job was worth the cost of the TR. Howwever, the guy I mentioned was talking to me about maybe getting into the left seat at some point with Ryanair, and also stating that it's really not as bad as people make out.

[truckflyer]

If you join RyR at 19, would you really be bothered where you got based? If far from "home"!

That's normally not a major issue for that young people, certainly would not have been an issue for me that time!

Actually the further away from home the better! That's probably why I ended up in Hong Kong!

[fulminn]

wow there is also flattery and reverence for captains even on a forum!!
..no thanks

[Lord Spandex Masher]

...although having said that I know I wouldn't have turned down that opportunity to fly from an extremely young age.

Wouldn't blame you for it either nor would I be jealous of you though;)

Fulminn, been flying for long have you?

[truckflyer]

Let's be honest and fair, it is a good start, and it will pay the bills!

There are worse deals out there, unless you get in with the BA program, this is probably the best start you can have at 19!

[bluecode]

Ah the naivety on display here. Still chasin' the dream! A few years down the line cures that.

As for being jealous. Jealous of a guy working for Ryanair? Now that's funny!

[Bearcat F8F]

As for being jealous. Jealous of a guy working for Ryanair? Now that's funny!
Yes flying a 737-800 every day must be tormenting! Especially when some of us are working for many years doing some hard manual labour whilst doing a degree to afford the fATPL which we so desire one day.

I mean from all the airlines obviously Ryanair will be the last on the list, but flying for Ryanair vs not flying at all - hmmm, I think it's a no brainer :{

[TeaTowel]

Lets not forget, people in his assessment probably did better than him in both interview and sim assessment, were subsequently offered the job and had to turn it down due to their bank accounts not being up to the required standard.

The position is then offered time and time again down the line until they find someone(who also passed assessments but weren't the best) to pay.

In a continent with millions of youth unemployment, people dropping out of education and training due to costs right, left and centre, and those lucky to have work maybe getting 8-16 hours a week stacking shelves to cover rent, we don't need 19 year olds paying for jobs.

People justify it by saying "its training!" yet when you ask them if they will pay 50000 for subsequent type ratings on their next type in the ME or wherever, they seem appalled by the idea.

[contacttower118.2]

Lets not forget, people in his assessment probably did better than him in both interview and sim assessment, were subsequently offered the job and had to turn it down due to their bank accounts not being up to the required standard.

Everyone knows that Ryanair makes you pay for the type rating so I doubt people who couldn't afford it or were unable to take out a loan would bother going through the process only to turn it down at the end.

Anyway for all you know he could be an excellent pilot. Some people are lucky enough to be born with both money and talent. :E

Edit to add: Just noticed I crossed with 15206's post. Quite agree.

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Too many 'Mr. I know it all' on here...

[TeaTowel]

If he did take out a loan, it was more than likely secured against his parents house. It doesn't exactly display much maturity or decision making skills. If he loses his medical or job in the next few years, he not only has his own life ruined but others as well.

Risk Taking has no place in aviation.

[TeaTowel]

Everyone knows that Ryanair makes you pay for the type rating so I doubt people who couldn't afford it or were unable to take out a loan would bother going through the process only to turn it down at the end.

So only the rich should apply in the first place? Worse again. I know multiple instructors teaching these rich kids to fly who themselves passed assessments but did not have the funding and so suddenly found themselves ineligible. As a pay-as-I-went student I always got the lowdown and inside knowledge of what the instructors really think:E

How can you tell which students in flight school are going to get employment? Talent? Personality? No, walk into the carpark and see how expensive their car is.

[contacttower118.2]

If he did take out a loan, it was more than likely secured against his parents house. It doesn't exactly display much maturity or decision making skills. If he loses his medical or job in the next few years, he not only has his own life ruined but others as well.

Well for loss of medical/licence can be insured against. Losing job a possibility obviously but unlikely at Ryanair I think...

Loads of people take out loans for flight training. Yes it is a risk but eventually, for most people (not all I grant you), that risk pays off. Calculated risk taking very much has a place in aviation, it is an integral part of it!

[contacttower118.2]

So only the rich should apply in the first place? Worse again. I know multiple instructors teaching these rich kids to fly who themselves passed assessments but did not have the funding and so suddenly found themselves ineligible. As a pay-as-I-went student I always got the lowdown and inside knowledge of what the instructors really think

I never said I agreed with it! I was just commenting on your assertion that people would turn up to Ryanair, do their assessment and then turn it down because they couldn't afford it!

I don't like the financing aspects of flight training any more than you do! It is of course grossly unfair that unless one has property or one's parents do in the UK it is essentially impossible to finance integrated training. But no one ever said life was fair!

Opining on PPRuNe about the injustices of the world is just not worth the effort. :oh:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Well for loss of medical/licence can be insured against. Losing job a possibility obviously but unlikely at Ryanair I think...

Be prepared for disappointment if you're planning your life on the benevolence of an insurance company.

[TeaTowel]

Opining on PPRuNe about the injustices of the world is just not worth the effort.

It is if even one wannabe realises the risks and doesn't ruin themselves or their family.

If you want it, get a part-time job(easier said than done these days unfortunately) and pay your way so you don't have debt collectors shooting you in the kneecaps.

To the wannabes: there is no pilot shortage. That is what's called marketing Most people don't get work out of flightschool.

[contacttower118.2]

Well have no fear I am not!

Losing medical or licence, for whatever reason, is one of increased risks of professional flying versus other forms of employment. Everyone who embarks on professional flying would, or should at least know that. Insurance goes some way towards mitigating that risk, but by no means all.

[contacttower118.2]

It is if even one wannabe realises the risks and doesn't ruin themselves or their family.

Ah yes that I agree with, but that is a slightly different point though isn't it?

To the wannabes: there is no pilot shortage. That is what's called marketing Most people don't get work out of flightschool.

Unless you pay £100k to go OAA/CTC in which there is a reasonable probability of getting a job afterwards, not guaranteed of course but a much higher probability than going modular at a random shed at the local airfield. So which is really the bigger risk? I think the original subject of this thread sort of illustrates that. :hmm:

And I say that as someone who has, so far at least, done all my training at the local airfield shed....

In the end TeaTowel we come back to the point that is so often debated on here...high debt integrated vs. pay as you go modular. As previously discussed not everyone is lucky enough for the former to be an option but when comparing both two things always stand out for me...

High debt integrated is a BIG risk unless one is on a mentored scheme but with OAA or CTC there is a pretty good chance of employment at the end since they have good airline contacts.

Pay as you go modular is less of a financial risk and suits those who are working but it is increasingly difficult to get a job afterwards because the major European airlines have basically decided that they prefer the integrated product and are in bed with OAA/CTC. If one then goes instructor after modular the likelihood is you won't have as much debt but you also will be earning a lot less than those who went integrated and got a job afterwards.

That's my take on it anyway. I have basically decided that I'll try a few more airline schemes (failed easyJet and just received the Aer Lingus online assessment details) and then it is on with the local shed for me...

[206Fan]

Only after reading most of the comments under the article on the Daily-mail Website. Never read so many stupid and bitter comments in all my life. :ugh:

The fella obviously has the money and skill-set to get through the training and do the job. All the best to him!

[Bealzebub]

If he did take out a loan, it was more than likely secured against his parents house. It doesn't exactly display much maturity or decision making skills. If he loses his medical or job in the next few years, he not only has his own life ruined but others as well.

Risk Taking has no place in aviation.

No, that isn't correct. Children cannot secure anything against their parents house, unless they were in the unusual position of being a co-owner. Only the parents can make that decision. Most parents have evolved "maturity and decision making skills" so they would be the ones to decide their own comfort with the level of risk. I am afraid that life is a risk, and there are contingencies that can be insured against, such as "loss of licence" etc.

Despite your assertion, "risk taking" is as fundamental to aviation as it is to any other walk of life. It is about managing, minimizing, and understanding that risk.

[BAe 146-100]

Now he has a 130K worth of loan repayments to service for the next 20 years+ on a bit part contract, good luck to him.

[Bealzebub]

Now he has a 130K loan to service for the next 20 years+ on a bit part contract, good luck to him.

He's 19. Whatever his loan is, he might well have repaid it before some of his school friends have graduated. What will his life be like at 25? 4000 hours on jets? Possibly a command? Potentially a 40 year career ahead of him even at that point.

This is what he wanted, and this is what he got. Well done to the lad!

[TeaTowel]

Can I have examples of these calculated risks?

Getting you're parents to take out a massive loan secured against their property without a guarantee of a job is akin to descending past minimums while not visual.

Sometimes it works, sometimes you end up upside down on fire with 6 killed.:ugh:

And as we have seen in the past even tagged schemes have risks. I won't even get started on the MPL.

This article and thread has unfortunately become an advert for paying. Someone somewhere reading this has realised their money will give them advantage and they'll will sign up for flight school tomorrow. Previously like every other "profession" they assumed they would have to compete on merit alone and wouldn't have bothered.

Of course we all know what HR look for in a pilot: Money.

[Bealzebub]

Can I have examples of these calculated risks?
There are just so many, it would fill pages and pages. Every de-rated take-off reduces the margin of safety, by turning excess runway length into something close to balanced field length. Similarly intersection take-off's forfeit available runway length for expediency and economy. Carrying minimum legal fuel, reduces margins of time and available options when a problem develops at destination. Selecting flap, power settings, runway for departure, headings after take off, with bad weather near an airport. etc. etc. etc.

There are no end of risk calculations made every day by every pilot around the world, where margins of safety are compromised for economy and therefore a managed level of risk is calculated and assumed.


Sometimes it works, sometimes you end up upside down on fire with 6 killed.
No. Managing risk is about ensuring it always works (one way or another) and that such disasters don't happen.

Getting you're parents to take out a massive loan secured against their property without a guarantee of a job is akin to descending past minimums while not visual.

Again, no it isn't. One is unlawful, and the other isn't. However staying with your analogy, the parents have the control and authority for the debt, and will make whatever decisions they think are best whatever their offspring may actually think. They are the ones who say "go around" and will initiate that action if they decide it is necessary. There is never a guarantee of a job. Such things cannot exist due to the many variables encountered along the way.

This article and thread has unfortunately become an advert for paying. Someone somewhere reading this has realised their money will give them advantage and they'll will sign up for flight school tomorrow. Previously like every other "profession" they assumed they would have to compete on merit alone and wouldn't have bothered.

Money almost always gives you an advantage. That is just another hard fact of life. Flight training is expensive, and many of the "tagged" programmes (to which you refer) are very expensive. "Merit" is just as applicable to successful graduates of these programmes. Airlines with these "tagged" programmes usually restrict their cadet training to a handful of schools (three really.) In fact, the one in question actually doesn't, although it is a significant customer apparently.

[contacttower118.2]

Can I have examples of these calculated risks?

Well taking off with 300m vis is "riskier" than when it is CAVOK, ETOPS with a twin is "riskier" than with having four engines, landing on a short and soaked runway is "riskier" than on a long dry one, putting a 70 tonne aluminium tube in a very inhospitable environment (40,000ft in the sky!) where by all accounts it shouldn't be if one really thinks about it carries a huge amount of risk but over the years aviation has learnt to deal with and mitigate it.

Perhaps not a great analogy I grant you but I would have thought it is obvious that everything we do in aviation has some risk involved, and at some point in our aviation careers a risk (a heavy crosswind, one more approach attempt when fuel is low or whatever) will have to be weighed against the promise of achieving an operational goal like landing at the intended destination. Occasionally, like that A320 at Hamburg that scraped a wing a few years ago pilots will come very close to miscalculating and a very small minority will pay the ultimate price for their miscalculation.

Getting you're parents to take out a massive loan secured against their property without a guarantee of a job is akin to descending past minimums while not visual.

Well with OAA/CTC one gets you a better job prospect than most other schools and the other likely gets you killed. Hardly comparable.

And as we have seen in the past even tagged schemes have risks. I won't even get started on the MPL.

Believe what you will. If you can get onto a tagged scheme that is far more security than paying for training at a modular flight school. I think you will find that the vast majority of MPL students completed their course and are now working for their respective airlines.

Of course we all know what HR look for in a pilot: Money.

Again believe that if it makes you feel better. That is no doubt true up to a point but one does need aptitude as well. I went to the easyJet MPL selection for OAA but failed because I got a rubbish mark in the COMPASS test, so rubbish in fact that had I just been going for OAA's regular integrated programme I probably would have failed as well. CTC run similar tests which need to be passed to get onto their Wings scheme.

As for professions competing on merit alone I have loads of friends who are training to be doctors, lawyers etc and guess what? They have all taken out loans to PAY for their training...:rolleyes:

[MCDU2]

I give him 2-3 years before the penny drops that staying in his current job will give him a negative return on his investment. Then he will either join BA or pop the keys for his micra in the post to the bank and declare bankruptcy as he flys off for the gulf.

Still either way its a young persons game these days. At just 22 he will have an ATPL with nearly 2000 hours all on a modern jet. If he heads to say BA he could see a short haul command by the time he is 30. If he wants long haul then maybe 35 and he could be in the LHS. Then 30 years earning captains money till retirement so long as his health holds up.

[contacttower118.2]

TeaTowel I really don't want to come across seemingly "attacking" you...that's not my intention at all.

I entirely sympathise with all of what you say, it isn't "fair" that someone who has worked and paid for flying training through that should get passed over for someone who just pays for an integrated course and gets a job at the end. Knowing the value of things is perhaps something that more airlines should look for in their pilots!

But as I said before telling oneself that all these people who do "pay" with bank of daddy's house are taking a risk akin to descending through minimums and will drown in debt just is not in step with reality.

It just sounds like you are using your (unfortunate?) position and experience to inform your own version of reality.

[TeaTowel]

TeaTowel I really don't want to come across seemingly "attacking" you...that's not my intention at all.

I know don't worry, not my intention either.


I entirely sympathise with all of what you say, it isn't "fair" that someone who has worked and paid for flying training through that should get passed over for someone who just pays for an integrated course and gets a job at the end.

No no no this isn't an integrated vs modular argument at all. People can pay what they want for whatever training they want. When it comes down to the interview and an equal or better candidate gets passed up due to how much money they can pay their employer is what I have a problem with.

It just sounds like you are using your (unfortunate?) position and experience to inform your own version of reality.

I'm in quiet a good position with sweet FA debt, no kids no mortgage!:ok:

If he heads to say BA he could see a short haul command by the time he is 30.

Unless BA ask him to pay for an Airbus rating which he can't afford. He will be the first on here hypocritically complaining about richer candidates getting ahead while he has experience. Charging people who SSTR for every subsequent type rating for the rest of their careers might be a good thing actually.

As for professions competing on merit alone I have loads of friends who are training to be doctors, lawyers etc and guess what? They have all taken out loans to PAY for their training

Training Not jobs. If a Doctor was asked to pay 30000 to join a hospital we can be sure it would be headline news in the media.

[contacttower118.2]

No no no this isn't an integrated vs modular argument at all. People can pay what they want for whatever training they want. When it comes down to the interview and an equal or better candidate gets passed up due to how much money they can pay their employer is what I have a problem with.

OK that we can agree on! :ok:

[contacttower118.2]

I don't really understand though why TeaTowel you were having a go at the Aer Lingus scheme considering your views on paying for type ratings/jobs.

I mean presumably this Ryanair guy paid about £80k for Oxford and then £30k or whatever it was for type rating and that got him a job. Not great you say. Fair enough, I think most people would agree that the paying bit, especially the last £30k is not good.

The Aer Lingus scheme though (if I have understood correctly) is only asking for £25k up front with another £25k out of salary! By modern standards that is actually a very good deal, a lot better than paying £90k to easy for an MPL!

Yet you attack Aer Lingus also. :confused:

[tugga_5]

Everyone seems to be talking about his "loan re-payments". How do we even know he has a loan to re-pay? For all we know someone in his family has funded his training and he has no debt!

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

He's there, you're not. Deal with it.

FR might not be the best airline to work for, but not the worst either.

It's not for you to judge him on PPRuNe.

[Matt7504]

I read the article when I woke up this morning and then saw the thread here just now, I fancied a laugh so clicked on it it to read the jealous and speculating comment.
At the end of the day he is 19, so I imagine had very generous parents who were willing to put him through flying school (Probably started at OAA at 17 or early 18) and he has very fortunately ended up with a job very quickly (I'm pretty jealous myself, but fair play). My point is though, there is no point crying over it and such. He will have proven himself and fulfilled the job criteria just like anyone else, and I for one say that at 19 that is really impressive and should get him off to a flying head start with his career. So good luck to him!

[TeaTowel]

The Aer Lingus scheme

The problem with that scheme is not the payment, last time it was a job for the boys and this time once again they are excluding people who have put effort into going flying getting atpl's etc and looking elsewhere. It will be a bunch of people who and I quote:

Ya I never really thought about flying tbh but I just saw the ad in the paper one day and gave it a whirl. Studied some basic flying stuff for a couple of days and came up with some bull**** about always wanting to fly and they lapped it up

Have SSTR's now become so prevalent that any attempt to call it out on ethical and moral grounds are shot down?

To all of ye who have done it can I ask you this: Will you do it again and again for each subsequent type? If I was in HR it would go like this:

Well Mr. Jenkins I see you paid for your type rating at your last airline. You can either pay us 60000 for a 777 rating or **** off.

They're like pay drivers in F1, Gutierrez Maldonado etc, adequately good enough to qualify for a super Licence, but the only reason they are on the grid is because they have money.

[TeaTowel]

Extremely interesting article in this months Air International that I got today.

Pilot debt, a safety issue?

By Dr. Simon Bennett
Director Civil Safety and Security unit, University of Leicester.

Some quotes:

My 2010-2011 British Airline Pilots Association(BALPA) funded research confirmed indebtedness to be a problem for pilots. The following statement is typical: "I accrued training costs of £118000 (ab-initio and two conversion courses) current debt left after repaying for ten years is £62000. Monthly repayments to the bank are £1050. About five years to go."

Asked to comment on the quality of First Officers one Captain said: "They seem to be selected more on...their willingness to take on huge debt then on their suitability for...command. They routinely seem to be in such dire financial situation that stress is only a matter of time." Having taken on huge debt, mediocre remuneration makes it hard for pilots to make ends meet.

Debt is a stressor. It limits options and life chances and circumscribes choice and geographical mobility. This is why newly qualified pilots find themselves commuting long distances on a daily basis or living in poor-quality, overcrowded accommodation while on duty.

Pilots careerism and vocationalism is exploited by the airlines who know that most pilots will accept base moves. Only if regulators reference the realities of of pilots' lifestyles can they deliver intended safety margins.

Are politicians, regulators and airlines in denial? Yes they are. This can only end badly.

So to sum up from me:

I will not say to this chap: "Well done! Jolly good show! You can call yourself a pilot!

Just like the airlines, he and people like him are as much to blame.

Buy the mag and read the full article. It is a word of warning to all you wannabes out there who think massive loans are the way to go.