Airport vehicle question... Austin Champ

[John Hill]

Hi, our aviation museum has acquired an Austin Champ 4WD vehicle, a type, which I think was used by the military of the UK and Australia, others too no doubt.

Can anyone confirm the RAF or the RAAF used them and can they supply a pictures?

Also, knowledge and especially photographs of Austin Champs in any airport (civil or military) setting?

Thanks for any assistance you can give us.

[Brian Abraham]

See they list an owners club here Austin Champ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Champ) Also may be of interest A Brief History of the Austin Champ (http://www.austinchamp.com/03%20Register/extras/photogallery/History.htm)

[XH175]

The odd Air Cadet gliding school had them for aerodrome cable recovery work.

Cue horrid memories of when flying was blown off and the staff competing to see who could get the 5th reverse gear down the main runway!

Usually all went quickly to hell in a hand cart when you got crossed up changing up to 4th reverse.

I think our personal best was done by a troika of drivers. One staff seated normally operating the pedals - one staff standing facing direction of travel in the driver foot well steering with the wheel behind his bum - one staff in the passenger seat calling clutch in/out and changing gear.

Thinking about it now we could charge a fortune for this as a management bonding exercise now.

Ross

[onetrack]

I never knew the Australian Army had Austin Champs, but apparently they bought 400 of them. I never saw a single one anywhere, in any military depot in my travels whilst in the AMF during the period '69-'71.
I might add, there were still quite a number of WW2 warhorses such as Diamond T 981 trucks in use in that period in the AMF - and I sighted them, in use and in storage.

I can find no reference or even a single picture of any Australian Army Austin Champ on the AWM website - which is extremely unusual. However, it's possible there may be a picture or two of a Champ, but its mis-described or listed under its service classification.

I can only guess that the AMF disposed of all their Champs fairly rapidly in the late 1950's/early 1960's, when the Landrover became the standardised Australian Army GS vehicle. The cost of maintaining the Champs was possibly also a big factor.

The Champs weak point was the transmission. They blew up on a regular basis - you'd be lucky to get 20,000kms between major transmission repairs.

A entrepeneurial dealer bloke by the name of Arthur Marshall, based in Kenwick, a suburb of Perth, Western Australia, imported hundreds and hundreds of ex-British forces Austin Champs between about 1967 and the mid-1970's, for sale to farmers and station owners in Western Australia.

They were initially quite popular as they were cheap - and technically, quite advanced, with torsion bar suspension, rack and pinion steering and a fully sealed RR engine.
However, as soon as the weak transmission made itself obvious, sales dropped away - although many Champ owners purchased other civilian used Champs just for a supply of transmission spare parts.

They were also a nightmare to work on, and parts were difficult and slow to source. In addition, they were thirsty and slow. As soon as better Jap vehicles started appearing - such as Toyota Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols, the Champs soon became relegated to farm back paddocks.

Some useful Champ info - 1955 Austin Champ 4WD Review - mister-cars.com (http://www.mister-cars.com/Article/Austin-Champ-4WD-Review-1955/712/)

An ongoing Champ restoration - The Restoration of Austin Champ 1824 (http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?28539-The-Restoration-of-Austin-Champ-1824)

[Heathrow08]

IMCDB - Austin Champ in "Survivors" TV Series (1975) (http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_174101-Austin-FV1801A--Champ--WN1-1952.html[/url)

This is a screen cap from the TV series on IMCDB, dunno if this is the sort of thing you are looking for. The vehicle featured a fair bit, driving about in the episode called "Something of Value" (S1 E12).

[John Hill]

Sounds fun Ross! I will search for air cadet pictures and maybe find a Champ in in one of them.

Thanks

[John Hill]

400 in the Australian army, there must have been some on airport duties somewhere!

[Flying Binghi]

Here's one for sale in Oz - AUSTIN CHAMP OTHER SOFT TOP - Mansfield - VIC - $ 4,100 (http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Used-Cars/AdNumber=TP005543571;pgid=lNl.SQk6kiE000ADnIyqc.kJ0000JH13tG Zp;sid=AcX9BaBuPfT9BfH6nmvYDgFkq1MkYhGUgpWh2wngXRtUi4hBI8iLX 0lKdB-zBg==)

The current owner may know a bit of the history.

[onetrack]

400 in the Australian army, there must have been some on airport duties somewhere!

Well ... on the website link below, there's a (reputedly) WW2 photo of an RAAF airfield in Tarakan, Borneo - which identifies a (reputedly) Austin Champ amongst the P-40's (W16).

Now, something is either wrong with the dating of the photo, or the ID of the vehicle - because according to John Mastrangelo's excellent Champ history page, development of the Champ did not commence until 1947, and full production was not commenced until 1952.
However, I note that he states that, "during World War Two, a prototype 4x2 'jeep' was produced in the United Kingdom".

Whether the vehicle amongst the P-40's has been mis-identified, or it actually was one of the 4x2 prototypes, is open to question.
Then there is the question of whether the dating of the Tarakan airfield photo is correct. As far as I knew, all RAAF aircraft had departed, and air operations were concluded at Tarakan by 1946 - thus making the likelihood of the vehicle being a Champ extremely unlikely.

Military Page 2 (http://www.frozentime.com.au/cat/war2.htm)

[chevvron]

I'm probably wrong but I don't think the RAF used them; I think they went straight from Jeeps to Landrovers. They were certainly used by the British Army but only until Landrovers were available.

[John Hill]

Thanks to everyone...

I found the picture of the RAAF airfield in Tarakan and I agree the dates make a Champ very unlikely, besides, I could only see a tiny thumbnail image.

Here are some interesting pictures of Champs as fire appliances! Including one intended for airport use.
Austin Champ Fire Engines (http://www.austin-champ.co.uk/fire/fireeng.htm)

Ours is an aviation museum not restricted to military matters although some of our best exhibits are ex RAF,RAAF and RNZAF.

[Flying Binghi]

...(reputedly) Austin Champ amongst the P-40's (W16)...

Depending how you scale the vehicle to the back ground and pax i woulda thought either a jeep or a Dodge weapons carrier. Ground clearance suggests weapons carrier. Passenger scale suggests jeep... anyway, back to work..:)

[onetrack]

John - I have done extensive research and there is no evidence whatsoever, of any of the Australian military Austin Champs, being used by the RAAF, anywhere, at any time.

Possibly the major reason is that the Austin "Truck, 1/4 ton, 4x4, CT", as it is referred to in both British and Australian military terminology, was designed as a Combat vehicle - thus the "CT" (Combat Truck) designation.
The official Austin designation was FV1801A (Cargo) and FV1802A (Utility body).

There were 5 (or possibly 6) further military variants on these models, plus the Austin A90-engined civilian version, which was designated the WN3.
Only about 500 of the civilian WN3's were built and nearly all were exported to Australia.
The WN3's can be distinguished by the fixed windscreen, as compared to the folding windscreen of the military versions.

The Austin "Champ" name was originally only applied to the civilian version, but the "Champ" name became the generalised name from sometime around the late 1950's.

WarWheels.Net- FV1801A Austin Mark 1 "Champ" 1/4 Ton Truck (http://www.warwheels.net/ChampAustinIndex.html)

I can find no reference anywhere in news media of the Australian Govt military vehicle purchase deal involving the initial 400 military Austin Champs - despite articles describing other major military equipment purchases in the 1950's.
It is also mentioned on numerous websites and forum discussions that another 400 used military Champs were purchased in the late 1950's for the Australian Army.

The initial 400 Austin FV1801's purchased by the Australian military were modified from the British models to meet Australian Army specifications.
These changes involved some body strengthening, a guard for the brake master cylinder, and altered radio mountings.

In the newspaper link below, is the only (poor) picture that I can find of an Australian Army Austin Champ. The AWM has no information whatsoever on the Australian Army Champs.
The original designation of "Truck, 1/4 ton, 4x4, CT" was changed to "Truck, 1/4 ton, 4x4, GS" in the Australian military in 1958.

The Australian Army Champs were regarded as unreliable, expensive to maintain, and thirsty. Their reputation wasn't helped by any repair work on the RR engine necessitating the removal of the complete engine, and its return to the RR service centre in Sydney.


15 Nov 1960 - NEW ARMY UNIFORM AND EQUIPMENT UNDER STRENGENT F... (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/103109768)

[John Hill]

Thanks for your efforts. I can safely say then that we should not paint our Champ in any RAAF colour scheme or park it next to the ex-RAAF Meteor!:)

I am a little surprised that I have been unable to find any reference to them having been used by the Australian DCA either.

[Flying Binghi]

Looks like we got a not before date..:)

26/06/1953, "the first Austin made Champ arrives in Australia"

26 Jun 1953 - FIRST AUSTIN "CHAMP" US AUSTRALIA (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2885041?searchTerm=%22austin%20champ%22&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||fromdd=01|||frommm=01| ||fromyyyy=1946|||todd=01|||tomm=12|||toyyyy=1969|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*)

...and we gots one for auction via the Department of Supply auction depot, Canberra - 07 May 1963 - Advertising (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/104253137?searchTerm=%22austin%20champ%22&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||fromdd=01|||frommm=01| ||fromyyyy=1946|||todd=01|||tomm=12|||toyyyy=1969|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*)

Now which gov dept. did it come from ?

An ex Oz army champ fer sale on ebay at the moment -
Austin Champ | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Austin-Champ-/161026021991?pt=AU_Cars&hash=item257de61a67&_uhb=1)

[aquadraco]

The Jeep-sized Austin Champ weighed about the same as a long-wheelbased Landrover. An Army chap I spoke to some years ago said that the weight, short wheelbase and lack of clearance between the tyres and mudguards meant that the Champ bogged very quickly and was harder to extract than the 'Rover. They were completely unsuitable for Australian Army use, and were quickly dumped in favour of the Landrover. There used to be quite a few Champs abandoned on farms in the Green Valley / Hoxton Park area of NSW. I wonder what ever happened to them?

edit: when I write L-nd Rover the website changes it to "Trabant". wtf?
re-edit: looks like Landrover must be written as one word or the website stuffs it up. Interesting... but stupid:ugh:

[onetrack]

Here's an interesting snippet. I wondered why I could find no record anywhere of the Australian Army's 400-vehicle purchase of the Austin "Truck, 1/4 ton, 4x4, CT" in the early 1950's. Every other major vehicle purchase by the AMF brought a fanfare in the Press.

I have been reliably informed, but I can't verify this without more cross-checking - that the 400 military Austins purchased by the Australian Army, were originally ordered by India - who cancelled the British order, just prior to delivery.

The British exerted pressure on the Australian politicians to take the cancelled Indian order - which they did. This was very obviously an unplanned and somewhat underhanded deal, that was no doubt thrust through by some top brass, without any notification to the Press - and probably also by doing some "creative accounting" in Defence Dept expenditure.

I could well imagine the British placing a great deal of pressure on the Aussie politicians, calling in "favours" and probably threatening to reduce Australian imports to Britain, if the deal wasn't taken up.
As a result, the pollies probably wanted the whole exercise quietly buried "in the books" - so that no repercussions would ensue, from a completely unplanned and decidedly dodgy Defence Dept purchase, that had not gone through the "normal channels" - of setting specifications, calling tenders, doing extensive independent testing, and comparing the products on offer.

If this normal procedure had been adhered to, the Austin "Truck, 1/4 ton, 4x4, CT", would never had been approved for purchase.

[cockney steve]

^^^^ it appears that it's an "in" joke with the Mods, who appear to share my loathing of said motorised stagecoach.

I'll admit the coil-sprung ones are an improvement , but let's face it, ANYTHING was an improvement -with the exception of the over-complicated, over -designed, over-weight and easily over-balanced "Champ"

The theory of driving one fully submerged in it's totally watertight and R-F -proof glory, was one of those cretinous ideas that the mandarins failed to think through----how the Fxxk it never occurred to them that the driver would either float away or drown before losing control, i don't know.

Apart from the piss-poor ground-clearance, the massive weight, narrow tyres and narrow track made it a lethal device to attempt a traverse of any sort of slope in.....and, once the whale had rolled, it was a nightmare to right again.

A magnificently engineered Submarine,undoubtedly, but a total disaster as a ground-vehicle. They represent all that was, and is, wrong with british military Procurement.

[XH175]

Been racking my brains trying to pin down the year for the Kirknewton use.

Must have been one of the trips there with my father so late 60s, possibly 1970. By 1976 it was all air portable landies and 1 tonner.

Could not be before 1967 as that was the year No.661 GS set up stall.

MT for the weekend was normally picked up at Turnhouse from the RAF section Sat morning along with the batteries for the caravan aldis. Returned to the pool on Sunday evening.

However the Army MT section for Ritchie Camp was based at Kirknewton. Popping over from the hangar to the section (where the new blister hangars are located) usually saw a loaner dug out from the back of the compound.

So possibly an Army one awaiting final disposal, loaned to GS for the day with plea to break it so it could finally be SOC from Ritchie Camp ledger.

The other possible was that the events occurred on the Summer Detachments at HMS Condor. Circa 68/69/70 and again borrowed m.t. from the RM at Arbroath.

Regards
Ross

[oftenflylo]

Our friend in RAFGSA Bicester -sent one out to Sharjah in a Belfast to do glider tugging, in 1969. It did just manage to do the task.

[DownWest]

Fast jet friend used to rally one in the RAF, would have been in the late 60s(?) He also commented on the ease of rolling them and the weak back diff.
I bought one in 69 for £45 (I was rooked!) to retrieve a boat from the SOF. Did about 9mpg, but towed well. Nice, if heavy, steering. Would do 95 flat out with the screen down and even London Taxis respected it.

[Capot]

I did time in an Artillery regiment equipped with Champs.

The best fun of all was driving in a convoy of 10 or more through a town, everyone in the lowest gear possible. The banshee wail of the vehicles, created by the necessarily huge cooling fan, magnified and echoing in the narrow streets, was one of the "sounds of the '60s".

What was not so much fun was waiting for the specially trained mechanic with a special tool kit, to open up the engine water-proofing casing and change a plug.

[HZ123]

In the 70's we at the British Airports Authority Constabulary had one in white Police livery. The back door had been in-filled with concrete as it towed a large steel / concrete trailer and was used to attend bomb threats/ and the suspect items were placed inside the trailer, I never drove it but had a lift in it and it was so heavy it could barely reach 30mph.

Slightly off subject but aviation connection.