Full procedure approach

[Dollehz]

Hey guys,


I've been going through a few instrument approach procedures and i have a question considering full procedure approaches.


Let's take REYKJAVIK (BIRK) as example,

http://approach.ap.funpic.de/charts/BIRK_RKV.pdf

imagine arriving from SKAGI (SA), cleared NDB DME approach Rwy 13 full procedure.

Does ATC expect me to proceed to RK as charted, enter the racetrack or can i just descend to 1200ft and fly the approach without flying the racetrack?


Another example, EBLG

http://beluxvacc.org/images/stories/charts/EBLG_Liege_Approach_ILS%20RWY%2005R%20%28CAT%20C-D%29_13122012.pdf

Approaching from the NE inbound LGE, cleared ILS approach RWY 05R

Would this mean: enter the hold for positioning, make the eastbound base turn and then proceed outbound on the 214 radial? :confused:


In a nutshell, how do i know what parts of a procedure I MUST fly and what parts i must only fly after i.e. a hold

Thank in advance!


Dollehz

[Teldorserious]

The first PDF is a departure, so I can't answer for the approach in Iceland.

The second one, coming from the North is crossing LIEGE outbound on the procedure turn, base turn at 12.4, intercept the ILS.

Now not from that area, here are some caveats. Middle of the night, they put you over Liege at 25,000 ft, because you were flying right over, changed your destination, boss wanted to stop in for dinner. You aren't going to be able to cross liege at 25,000 ft and get down fast enough for the 12.4 turn, so you decend in the hold, and when down at say 3k, do the outbound procedure turn 077 to get you lined back up to Liege in the right direction, outbound 214, turn at 12.4, intercept the ILS.

That said, there are other approaches in the world where an entry hold co located with a procedure and a procedure turn gets silly in how much of the entry hold you are supposed to do. For instance in Kelowna Ca I did an entry and full turn in the hold prior to outboud on the approach. Guys on the radio asking about my position wern't happy. The book says to do the hold, which is an entry and a full turn, but the old salts will tell you can do anything you want inside the protected airspace of a hold, ATC doesn't care. So the pro way is to drop into the entry hold dropping like a greased brick, getting onto the outbound procedure as fast as possible and not flying around in circles up there, already at procedure entry alts an flying every little procedure on the chart to get onto final.

Do what is safest for you to guarantee the safety of the flight. If you are high and the hold works, do it, if you are comfortable slamming in high and crossing Liege outbound at 12k and 250, ok. Just stay on the lines and inside the protected airspace. Hope this helps.

[Dollehz]

Thanks for the reply!

You can find the chart of Reykjavik if you scroll down it's chart 16-1 :)

So basically the procedure turn east of LGE is only to start the approach after holding? Shouldn't this be indicated on the chart?

[sabenaboy]

In Reykjavik, from SKAGI, descend to 1200', join final and start final descent at D6.0 from IRE, entering the hold is not necessary nor expected.

In EBLG, in real life you'll always get vectored to final. If not, Teldorserious' answer is just fine.
Even if this situation arises on your IFR check flight with an examiner approaching LGE from the south, then tell the examiner that you know how it's supposed to be done by the letter and ask if it's ok with him to do it in a more practical way. Let atc know what you're doing and you'll be fine as long as you stay in the protected area. Anyway the one who designed this app to EBLG must be a moron behind a desk and not a pilot. :ugh:

edit: spelling

[DutchOne]

To sabenaboy:

In EBLG, in real life you'll always get vectored to final. If not, Teldorserious' answer is just fine.
Even if this situation arises on your IFR check flight with an examiner approaching LGE from the south, then tell the examiner that you now how it's supposed to be done by the letter and ask if it's ok with him to do it in a more practical way. Let atc know what you're doing and you'll be fine as long as you stay in the protected area

So tell me pls. What is according to you the official way and what is the practical way. Just have in mind you were cleared for the full procedure. (for whatever reason).

[aterpster]

Dollehz:

You can find the chart of Reykjavik if you scroll down it's chart 16-1

So basically the procedure turn east of LGE is only to start the approach after holding? Shouldn't this be indicated on the chart?

It shouldn't be on the chart because it is all explained in any decent course on PANS-OPS procedures. If you're within 30 degrees of the LGF 214 radial you directly enter the base leg course reversal. If not within 30 degrees you must first enter the 225 degree hold, which will align you with the base leg's 214 radial. As another poster stated, if you are high you can obtain an ATC clearance to descend in that hold before commencing the base-leg.

Here is the Jepp version for consistency with your Iceland charts posting:

http://tinyurl.com/cbmn6ot (http://tinyurl.com/cbmn6ot)

As to Iceland, note the text "1200 to final." That means exactly what it says. It's like "NoPT" in the U.S.

[PappyJ]

Arrival from SKAGI… (opinion of an A330 Captain who's flown there a few times, albeit not in an A330)

Assuming that you've crossed over SKAGI at 5000 feet (MSA for N-E sector) and are at such speed that you could complete the decent to 2100 feet within the roughly 8 miles between SKAGI and D7.0IRE, and ATC has cleared you for a 'straight in approach runway...', then you would be expected to:

Leave SKAGI and decent to 2100 feet,
cross D7.0IRE,
decent at 3 degrees until D1.3IRE
decide if it's time to burn more fuel or go drink beer (Go Around or Land)


Otherwise, you'd be expected to fly the procedure as applicable.

All of that said, expect Vectors to final…



EBLG…

From NE….
Again, assuming you're at the appropriate altitude - 3300 feet - fly to LGE, then outbound on the 214 radial to either D8.5 or D12.4 as appropriate. The rest is simple.

Again, that said, expect Vectors to final.

Now, to answer your question, "…how do I know what parts of the procedure I MUST fly…". The answer will be in the form of the clearance you receive, and the level of ATC assistance available.

In your examples both airports have approach control and radar vectoring capability, therefore, the expectation is that you would likely never fly the 'full procedure' approach. However, look at the following.

In this case, the only method short of changing to some sort of visually based approach, is to fly the full procedure.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1305/01231NA.PDF


In all cases, there is always some dialog with ATC, and possibly - as is the case of Nome - with other aircraft.

That said, most often you'll hear one of the following from ATC…

"…Cleared for the ______ approach, or intercept final approach course…Clear for the approach…". Normally clearances such as these would indicate a straight in procedure is expected.

Conversely, "…cleared to the XYZ airport FOR an approach…", would indicate the use of a 'full procedure' approach, and you'd be expected to indicate which procedure you would use, and which runway you would land on.

Finally, if in doubt, ask!

[Dollehz]

Thanks for the explanations!

So basically the eastbound base turn in EBLG is only to be used after a holding?

The same problem exists in EBOS

http://folhetas.com/IVAOportugal/Charts/EBOS.pdf

ILS 08 chart 11-1

Arriving from COA (NE) inbound ONO cleared ILS approach 08, can i just proceed to DD after ONO for the base turn or do i have to enter the hold for positioning, fly the 102°/106° base turn and then continue to DD?

[sabenaboy]

So tell me pls. What is according to you the official way and what is the practical way. Just have in mind you were cleared for the full procedure. (for whatever reason).

I'll assume that you're still in IFR training flying some light single or twin.

Approaching LGE from the south, the official way would be to make a direct entry into the hold, when again over LGE, proceed outbound R070, complete this procedure turn, when once again over LGE proceed on LGE R214 to 8.5 DME, and turn right to join final.

The practical way? (lets assume you're on LGE R180 at 3 DME inbound to the VOR) ask atc:" OO-ABC, request to turn left to intercept R214 outbound" and proceed to R214 8.5D at 3000' minimum (MSA)

If you're further away, let's say 10 NM south, you might ask atc "request to proceed direct to 10 miles final 05R"

Whatever position you are at, ask yourself what the fastest and easiest routing would be, make sure it's safe (stay above msa) and ask atc if you can do that.

In real life I'd do anything to avoid flying this stupid full procedure.

Sometimes ATC will be reluctant to clear you for anything else then the full procedure (due to lack of radar, some terrain around and liabilty risks for instance) ATC might answer you then: "Cleared for the approach, no other traffic, report final". In such a case don't hesitate: take the most practical route to final BUT ALWAYS make sure you're not doing anything stupid! Be aware of your position, terrain, other traffic etc... (And check with your instructor/examiner if he doesn't mind :cool: )

edit: spelling

[DutchOne]

Haha. Oh how I love assumptions.

The practical way? (lets assume you're on LGE R180 at 3 DME inbound to the VOR) ask atc:" OO-ABC, request to turn left to intercept R214 outbound" and proceed to R214 8.5D at 3000' minimum (MSA)

In my company you would have failed your check for this procedure. R180 inbound 3DME left turn to intercept R214 outbound? Are you doing a sightseeing tour over the entire airport or something? What normal jet can make this turn radius?

If all services are available, no ATC will clear you for a full approach. They will have a good reason for it if they do so. Especially in Europe. So lets think practically pls. Especially because Dollehz question was concerning the full approach and what of it is needed.

The holding is there to loose hight. If no hight to loose, no holding needed. The procedure turn is there to line you up for the 214 radial outbound. If you come from a northerly direction that is also not needed. But sightseeing tours just to avoid a procedure turn..... :ugh:

In real life I'd do anything to avoid flying this stupid full procedure.

This attitude is dangerous in aviation.

[sabenaboy]

What normal jet can make this turn radius?
Didn't I just assume you'd be flying a light twin? It would be a stupid in an A330 perhaps, but very practical in a C172 or Seneca!
In my company you would have failed your check for this procedure. Well, in real life in my company, in the sim the TRE wouldn't throw such a childish clearance at you. In our company they look for airmanship and crm. Basic IFR knowledge should and is known in our company.

Assume you're approaching LGE from the south 25 NM out,in your A330, and ATC yells you: "Smartass123, radar is down, no other traffic descend 3000', cleared for the full procedure ILS 05R" and you tell this experienced captain at your left that you intend to fly all the way to LGE, make a direct entry in the hold, fly the R70 procedure turn, and when over LGE join R214 outbound, well then I'd like to see the look on your boss's face!

Probably he'll be flabbergasted, get on the radio and ask ATC if you can self position to final to avoid the extra 14 minutes, roughly extra 50 NM detour and how much extra fuel burn in your A330? Probably, you'd get a friendly debrief after landing. :rolleyes:

This attitude is dangerous in aviation Didn't I just say: "take the most practical route to final BUT ALWAYS make sure you're not doing anything stupid! Be aware of your position, terrain, other traffic etc..." Such an attitude is not dangerous, it's called practical and common sense. Something that hopefully you will learn before getting to the left seat.

Sometimes full procedures make sense, but this particular one in Liège is stupid. Why not simply design a racetrack at LGE on inbound course 225°, so that you can proceed on R214 from the racetrack? Oh, wait! I know! It was you who designed this full procedure! :ugh:

[PappyJ]

What normal jet can make this turn radius? The A330 can manoeuvre at pretty much the same speed as a heavily loaded Seneca. For example, at 170 tonnes, the approach speed is about 136 knots.

I can't quite figure out why you were asking about it; nevertheless, there's the answer.

[DutchOne]

It would be a stupid in an A330

Thank you very much. You passed the resit :D!

[felixthecat]

If your high enter the hold to loose the height. If your not within 30 degrees of the outbound you must also go via the hold….thats was my understanding from way back when :)

[8che]

There are only 3 ways to descend below MSA.

1) Visually
2) Under Radar control
3) Following a full procedure.

Flying to a self positioned waypoint should be treated with the utmost caution.

In Sabenaboy's example self positioning from the south and descending to 3000ft within 25 miles would be OK as it keeps you above MSA. From any other direction this would be a no no as MSA is higher so follow the full procedure. You need to be within 30 degrees to commence an outbound and more importantly must be within 5 degrees to actually descend on it. Be very wary of ATC with no Radar. You're flying the aeroplane not them.

[aterpster]

I thought the OP asked a training/knowledge question.

[galaxy flyer]

A very erudite TWA pilot once told me, unless flying timed patterns or on radar vectors, fly the procedure from the IAF to the MAP. Shortcuts are taken only at your peril.

GF

[Checkboard]

There are only 3 ways to descend below MSA.

1) Visually
2) Under Radar control
3) Following a full procedure.
Really? I don't suppose you have a reference?

What about a LSALT, if that is lower than the MSA?
What about in a published holding pattern, with a MHA lower than the MSA?
(In Australia) What if you are established on a VASIS associated with an ILS and within 10 miles?

[sabenaboy]

@Dollehz (original poster)

I just noticed that the EBLG chart is hosted on
Belux vACC (http://beluxvacc.org), a site for virtual Air Traffic Controllers.

May I therefore assume that you're not a (student-)pilot, but simple someone who plays ATC on his PC?

With all due respect for your hobby, I want to tell you that I replied because I thought I was helping an aspiring pilot, not because I wanted to waste my time teaching a flightsimmer how IFR-procedures are flown.

If you're not a pilot, next time please take your question to the questions-forum! (http://www.pprune.org/questions-67/)

[Dollehz]

@sabenaboy

I used that chart because it was the first one I found, i am a real life pilot :)

It's something i've been wondering for a while now but since atc almost always gives vectors i haven't been able to find someone that could give me a solid answer and a reference to an offical document that solves my confusion.

I've also tried to respond but somehow my posts just don't show up :\

(seems to work now)

so my previous unsuccesfull post was:

So basically the eastbound base turn in EBLG is only to be used after a holding and not a part of the "full procedure" when approaching within 30° of radial 214, correct?

If so, how would it be indicated if this turn would be a part of the approach that must be flown?

[8che]

Checkboard,

Pprune is sure hard work these days. Why on earth would you need a reference ?

What about a LSALT, if that is lower than the MSA?
You're splitting hairs. FAA consider LSALT to be MSA. Local definitions are hardly the point. Call it LSALT/MSA whatever you want the 3 principles equally apply.
What about in a published holding pattern, with a MHA lower than the MSA?
Well that will be another version of a procedure then.
(In Australia) What if you are established on a VASIS associated with an ILS and within 10 miles?
In any country if you're established on a VASIS then you're visual ! The clue is in their title.

The 3 practical rules always apply. Most of us dont need a reference.

[Checkboard]

Hi, I asked for the reference mostly to determine where you are. The rules change with location - the Australian reference is a case in point, as you can't descend below the MSA at night, even if "visual" unless you are within 3 nm or on a VASIS, or conducting an instrument approach.

[Dollehz]

New question considering full procedure approaches

EHAM ILS approach 06

http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/2013-03-21-AIRAC/eAIP/html/graphics/eAIP/EH-AD-2.EHAM-IAC-06-1.pdf?

So imagine approaching RIVER and having a comm failure (just to avoid responses like you will normally receive vectors and ATC will tell you what to do etc.)
I know entry in procedure turns is restricted to 30 degrees left and right but the angle overhead SPL VOR is to sharp to make a normal turn.
So you enter the hold for repositioning to be able to continue to the NDB (correct?)
Is there a maximum angle here that allows you to take the turn or reposition in the hold? (like the 30 degrees with a procedure turn) I found something about maximum 90 degrees in a precision approach and 120 in a non precision but I believe this is the maximum angle between the initial approach and the intermediate approach.

Can someone clear this up for me?

Thanks!