Aircrew Holdies - Length of Hold

[WannabeCrewman]

Evening gents,

I am one of a (fairly big) number of so-called "Holdies" - guys and girls waiting for our next (in my case, WSOp Generic) training courses in various stations/jobs around the UK Military.

Personally, (and I think this is amongst the longest hold left, along with mates on the roughly the same A Squadron courses), I joined in 2010, wont have my next course until mid-2015, and wont be CR until 2018.

Total time spent becoming CR - just shy of 8 years. My TOS is 12 years (so, effectively, I start resettlement 2 years into my first operational tour).

Out of interest, has anyone ever experienced, or heard of, holds of this length?

Cheers

[VinRouge]

If I were you, I would be asking to go off and get a degree full time whilst you have the chance.

[StopStart]

Yup, there were holds of 5-6 years back in the early nineties for folk on some flying courses. Lots of people buggered off and did 3 year, full time degree courses - whilst still on full pay of course. As VR says, I'd request something like that. If not you'll be making tea and doing photocopying for the next 6 years.

[GalleyTeapot]

Knew several pilot types who held 7-8 years back in late '90's.

[soddim]

Cannot understand why the taxpayer is expected to fund 12-year engagements - even if the training was straight through.

What a dreadful waste of public funds!

[Kitbag]

I believe the 12 yr engagement would be to ensure the taxpayer gets a reasonable return on their investment!
Seems to be a crying shame that such enthusiasm for what I guess is a dream job is left to wither through a presumably clogged pipeline.
If you get the opportunity I think the advice to get edumacated is correct, wishing you the best of luck.

[Maxibon]

As an outsider with no experience of managing the phase 1 and 2 pipelines of the RAF, but directly involved in the Army's, this is an unbelievable disgrace to those in the system. As a taxpayer I'm horrified, but as a serviceman I'm hugely sympathetic for those having to endure such shoddy mismanagement. The problem is that the A1 planners know that if people leave, there are numerous people waiting to jump into that slot. It's time Private Eye got wind of this.

[thunderbird7]

Sorry, I thought this was about those blue bags....

[WannabeCrewman]

Unfortunately I already have a degree, which means the service won't allow me to take a second one on their tab. Apparently, speaking to a colleague who didn't have a degree but asked about getting one whilst waiting, he was given a straight "No".

I guess the big silver lining is I still have a job; I have some mates who were amongst the huge cull of pilots in the FT pipeline.

Don't get me wrong, there are some properly exciting holds out there; my last was working with a SAR unit, helping out with training, which was smashing, with a lot of guys (in fact, every one I met there) who did go out of their way to develop us as holdies and (junior) aircrew as much as they could. That said, there is an equal number of very dull, tedious holds.

Another point that had been mooted was that the hold is massively affecting the pay we would receive; we haven't got our brevets and therefore aren't eligible for substantive Sgts salary. Likewise, we haven't passed our OCUs and aren't eligible for flying pay.

I did some rough maths on this, and figured that when compared with a "normal" NCA career (Where you could expect to be earning flying pay after 3 years of service) I would be down just over £54k. Doubt I'll ever be seeing that...

I got to be honest, I did join wanting to go the whole hog, make a long career of the service, perhaps one day becoming an instructor. Get my 22 years at least.

At this point in time, I will be out after 12 years with minimal hours in the air.

Going to give Bristow a call this week, ask about their plans for ab initio SAR rear crew careers... long shot but I haven't much to lose!

[Door Slider]

Maxibon,

As you rightly point out, this is extremely shoddy planning and a disgrace it has after all been going on for years. I had a year long hold lots of years ago. However, is generally only confined to aircrew specialisations and not across Airmen and Officer recruitment as whole.

The problem was not helped by the last SDSR, unlike some trades where you can be productive a few months after joining the RAF, the aircrew pipline is much longer which makes the manning levers slightly more difficult to control. Just a little bit of background info, but the fact remains, there is no excuse for 7 year holds!

[NutLoose]

I can't fathom that.... What a massive wastage in both manpower and resources, how the heck can you react to future trends in manning if you have people simply sitting on hold for specific posts, the only people I can ever remember being in that situation in my time period were a couple of Trade Assistant Generals at Odiham who had fluffed their courses, one a pot washer in the mess and one the SWO's runner.... I hadn't realised this now happens, when I joined up, I went from basic training straight onto my course after a weeks leave then from that straight to a unit.
Jeez don't let the politicians know or we will be having elections next week so as to have the next lot sitting in parliament awaiting taking over in a few years time.....

[5aday]

wannabee,
Look at the writing writ large on the wall. You cannot be serious
still thinking about a career in the R.A.F. There were loads of very talented
young men thrown to the wolves from Kinloss. The Nimrod has gone.
The only people making the news are the drones - sorry, the drone pilots.
If you stay, you will be holding - and holding - and holding on to nothing.
One more review and you could well be another casualty. How can you plan anything? Your family, your mortgage, your entire life - what ever - but nevertheless plan your way ahead. Answer= you cannot. The money you are talking about as losing is nothing on the grand scale. Get real and get out.
Get on the ladder somewhere else where there is a meaningful end game.
Dave M

[N2erk]

As I understand it , wannabe, you have a degree, have not entered as an officer, and are holding below sgt rank. Suggestion: can you apply for "airman-type" tech training in the interim- either avionics, engines, airframes etc under the banner of " having tech knowledge will make me a much more knowledgable, therefore valuable aircrew member" in later life when you are CR aircrew. Alternately, if you are commissioned, see if you can get Engineering Offr training. Either way you will be better off personally/educationally and the RAF will be better off. It would probably be of benefit to you personally when you get demobbed.
I wuz a GDNav, and in retrospect it is appalling how little knowledge/training I/we had in general aircraft systems.

[heights good]

WannaBeCrewman - you have to think this through and work out what you actually want from life. 5aday has said leave ASAP; to do what and on what wage or position? If you start again you will start from the bottom of a pay scale and lower position.

You will get numerous skills from the RAF, most of which you just don't realise you have. Things like confidence, public speaking, pride, strong work ethic, high standards, loyalty, leadership, problem solving, working under pressure, dealing with ambiguity, resource management etc.

You (if you are smart) will pick up numerous quals along the way such as SEREO, DIT, TRiM, HFF, First Aid, Uni Short Courses, another subsidised degree, the list is pretty long.

You have free dental, medical and gym. You have the potential to get on several courses/expeds such as gliding, diving, parachuting, mountaineering even try out for the bobsleigh team!

So what courses can you get on? Check DINs, SROs, the TDF, stations that have trg units that cater to your interests i.e. Air Warfare Centre - Electronic Warfare, Basic Air Warfare Cse, Aerosystems Cse, Human Factors, etc. Defence College - Flight Safety Officer, IT cses, Listening Skills and numerous more. RAF Valley - Mountain Rescue, SAR, access to Snowdonia. There are tons more if you take the time to look and think about it.

Try to broaden yourself as well, there are tons of holding jobs that people don't want but that actually develops you as a SNCO. Working for CASWO may sound like the most painful job in the world however, think about what you will learn. You will be exposed to the full spectrum of the RAF, very important staff work, very high profile exposure of NCA, dealing with very senior officers, make or break you as SNCO. Think of the bigger picture.

I wish I had a few yrs holding, I would use that time to get as much as I could for myself and more importantly to make me more employable both in the RAF and Civvie Street.

Looking at civvie street if you left in the next couple of yrs you could move back in with parents to save money. Buying your own place will cost, on a monthly basis, (very conservatively) £700 for mortgage/rent, £100 for council tax, utilities £60, £15 insurance, £100 travel costs to work, £40 gym, £10 dental = £1,025 pcm. That's very conservative and equates to around £12,000 a yr, a difference of around £9,500 extra costs over staying in the mess. So add £10k onto what you are paid just now, that is the minimum you would need to earn to have the same standard of living!

Think VERY long and hard before deciding to leave, you will not be able to come back. the grass isn't always greener, just a different shade of green :E

If its all too much then apply for ATC, Int Analyst etc. :}

[WannabeCrewman]

heightsgood;

Dont worry, I wont be going anywhere without having something solid to fall back on to. Not going to try and claim I am happy with the current state of affairs within the service at the moment, but it is an income and you never know, things might start moving a bit quicker - apparently guys are getting through Strawbs with more regularity.

That said, if I find something (and I am talking, active, hands-on jobs, not a desk job) that is going to keep me interested, excited and challenged, I may well jump ship. I want to start a career now and get my hand in early - not wait another 5 years for it to start proper, only to have to leave within 4 years of starting, because I cant make F/Sgt, a result of not having enough SJARs to be eligable for promotion.

RE: Courses - yes we can do some, however we have to provide bloody good justification.

AT courses are out there, but for me at the moment, are a no-go - the section I am holding on is so under manned that we almost cant afford people to go on leave. I did ask if I could attend JFACTSU and try to get out to Herrick in a FAC/JTAC medium - I was told a firm no, because I am still parented by 22 Gp, who are a bit funny about sending "technically untrained personnel" out to an active Operation. Cant say I blame them for being a bit funny about it.

RE SAR/MRT - I was on a SAR unit last year - the guys there did take a genuine interest and went out of their way to develop me and a number of other holdies. Had some very interesting tasks and challenges there, as well as learning a good bit about SAR stuff on the way. Top blokes, cant knock them at all.

Appreciate all the advice so far guys. Not the first time that leaving ASAP has been suggested to me either!
WC

[Biggus]

You also need to bare in mind that, come 2015, with a new SDSR, withdrawal from sandy places, possible reductions in fleets, etc, the RAF may decide once again that it has too many WSOps. If that is the case, and there are redundancies, then you are very vulnerable to being let go.

By 2015 you will be an untrained, relatively elderly, student about to enter the aircrew training pipeline. You might not like to hear it, but you actually have very little to offer. The RAF will have invested little in you, and by letting you go and recruiting a 18-21 year old say two years later, when they might actually need them as part of a trickle feed intake, they will get nearer 10 productive years out of a new recruit as opposed to the 4 years they will get from yourself.

Only you can decide what to do, you need to look out for yourself in the RAF, no one else will - and you'll find loyalty in general (beyond immediate colleagues and within your current unit) is pretty much a one way street.

[Bismark]

This method of manpower management, whereby you turn off the aircrew recruiting tap and place those in on mega holds will be a long term disaster for the RAF. The service will end up with a 4-5 year plug of over-aged, inexperienced aircrew who will be a significant problem in career management terms.

The RAF should have dismissed the majority of the pipeline and kept the recruiting open, albeit only a trickle. The service would then have maintained a steady stream of 18-24 year olds at the base of the pyramid. As it is the base will be 28-32 year olds at a minimum. Where will the future seniors come from? The 100 year experiment may have dealt itself a fatal blow.

The RN kept the tap open as they learned this lesson in the early '90s.

[WannabeCrewman]

Guys, this is all great advice from those older, wiser and more accustomed to the bendings-over that the service seems to dish out with ever increasing regularity these days.

Truly appreciate your honesty. I don't mind if its brutal, better to see the crash ahead and avoid it than remain oblivious with the blinkers on until its too late.

I just got off the phone with the HR Manager for Bristow, who was lovely, listened to my tale of woe reference holding etc, and that I wanted to get my head down and get into a proper flying career in SAR.

She said that they are planning on using existing SAR rearcrew at the moment to fill the posts, then once that pool of talent starts drying up in a few years time, they will start bringing in training for ab initio guys.

Makes complete sense to me, I figured that this would be the case, but hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained. A few years gives me time to get medical qualifications and more experience working with other rescue services, build up that CV for when the RAF make me redundant in 2015...;)

[Pontius Navigator]

In days of yore I spent a total of 3 weeks not in training between starting and arriving on the sqn. The training system was running at near capacity with high numbers on more than a dozen types.

Now with a very small requirement and few types a 'glitch' such as SDSR will have a disproportionate effect and you can't anticipate some of these effects. Post-AFG OTOH should be on top of the in-tray if not already in the out tray or filed.

At least the OP is still employed unlike those unfortunate pilots made redundant even while in training.

[VinRouge]

Unfortunate and short sighted yes, but i believe most are now very happy with their lot. Most of them are flying for Cathay now out of Hong Kong. I believe the payoff was not insignificant either.

[Bismark]

Doesn't change the fact that the RAF have screwed their aircrew manpower plot by not paying off more and keeping th e recruiting tap open.

[5aday]

Bismark - Spot on
Previous without naming - what part of being a civilian, and being ex services, precludes you from the long list you wrote. I had private health as part of my job, Almost every hotel had a really good Gym. My house is now in the Home Counties instead of the wilds of the Moray Firth. Your posts are ignoring so many facts of life its quite sad. This younger man, Wannabee, (I don't know his age) is bouncing along on the bottom rung in spite of having a degree. He is probably not allowed in the SNCO's mess or accomodation, his income is probably derisory in todays terms, and he is talking about resettlement courses beore ever getting anywhere near the generic WSOp course let alone squadron service.
In my short regular service career I saw time on a Shackleton and then 3 Nimrod Squadrons and left again by the time I was 28yrs old. The writing was on the wall - in the form of SROs and I saw countless people - good people - being sent on resettlement prior to being discharged the service. Many of these guys didn't want to leave and were in their mid thirties with homes in the area, children at local school and mortgages to service. One or two of the wives just up sticks and said farewell to the eternal mediocrity of being a knockers wife. They saw the same writing. This was in the mid 70s and I saw four squadrons fold and the resultant bulge of Siggies and AEOps had to be absorbed somewhere or got rid of.
If Wannabee has the chance to get a foot on the bottom rung of a new ladder and make a new career somewhere else, signing out the keys to the gym and living in a barrack block and trying to do short courses here and there is no way forward.
He has to take risks and move quickly or accept his life is doomed to going nowhere.
The next review will probably dump him anyway in spite of his misplaced loyalty to his employer.

[Pontius Navigator]

Bismark, ref the recruiting plug, I thought back in the late 80s that the tap appeared to be too open.

The nav school annual output was around 100. The nav school staff strength was around 90. Many of the staff would have given their eye teeth to get back on a squadron (one did and he was 50 - it was conditional that he didn't 'waste' money on an OCU and got up to speed back on his sqn).

Was our training pipeline over bloated with too many in Training Command and OCUs with a consequent churn of experience out of the sqns?

[Bismark]

Pontious, not sure about the 80s but more recently (last 10-15 years) the RAF pipeline has been over capacity against the requirement and also pretty inefficient. Generally, the RN system has been much more efficient, with holdovers occurring due to either programme upgrades or poor IIS of new aircraft types (vide Merlin Mk1). The efficiency of the RN fast jet selection process is to be admired - identifying the "few" had to be as efficient as possible from the relatively small input per year of potential RN pilots.

Of course the RN has been able to send its holdovers to sea to get qualified to drive ships as well, so at the end of the pipeline some are well qualified to challenge for the top in the RN ( ship command still the driving feature of a First Sea Lord). However, holding over a 24 yr old for more than a couple of years is ridiculous and it is better to redund and recruit younger blood in this sort of case.

It would be interesting to know what the average age of gaining CR status is of current RAF aircrew( and predictions for the next 5 years (due to a zero recruiting policy)).

[airborne_artist]

You seem to be giving 100% commitment to your employer, but not getting much more than 40% back.

Which part of the equation do you not understand? Leave and join an employer who will give you opportunities.

[globefan]

Bismarck wrote - The RAF should have dismissed the majority of the pipeline and kept the recruiting open, albeit only a trickle.

This is where you've got it so wrong - the RAF wanted to streamline the holding WSOps (there as a result of SDSR). It was the spineless politicians who didn't want to face more criticism following redundancies and a reduction of the pilot pipeline. I know this is a rumour site - but at least try to get close to the truth....... :bored:

[WannabeCrewman]

We were told about 3-4 days into our A squadron course that there was a damn good chance that most of us would be made redundant at the end of the course; it'd be a similar reselection process that the pilots faced, with a pay-off and a "Thanks anyway".

As globefan rightly says, it was the fallout that came about from the pilot chop that stopped that redundancy happening. Truth be told, when compared to what we have to look forward to now, I would much rather have taken a redundancy; I could have gone and got other qualifications elsewhere - it would have set me up nicely to train as a commercial diver for example.

I wonder what there would be more outcry over; a bunch of young guys and girls getting shown the door with a cheque in hand by the RAF (again), or the RAF paying guys a (relatively) large amount of money, who are of little use to the service and having to wait sometimes 8 years before they can start their very short operational career?

Lots of people seem to forget that most if not all of the pilots who were culled back in 2011 landed on their feet with careers in the commercial industry.

[Bismark]

Wanabee,

I find it difficult to believe this snafu was a political decision. It would have been fairly easy to convince a minister that the best way forward ( based on previous experience in the early 90s etc) is that it is better to chop and maintain a recruiting flow than to retain and stop recruiting. It is also cheaper in the medium term. I only observe the pilot situation where I have seen no pilots passing out of Cranwell for about 3 years and I hear it may be another 18 months before we see such an event - an amazing reflection on a Service based on aircrew!

As far as I am aware the RN maintained an aircrew recruiting stream throughout this period - but then again they DID learn the lessons of history. I think the RN also moved their FJ pipeline to the US to avoid he clutches of the RAF controlled UK pipeline.

[globefan]

Bismarck, doesn't really matter whether you find it hard to believe our not. That is the truth. Unfortunately both those individuals concerned and the service now have to manage an almost impossible situation. Nobody who has been involved can believe that we are where we are, as the saying goes. Given your comments I guess you haven't been involved - be thankful for that.

[Pontius Navigator]

Bismark, you confirm my point. The capacity of the pipeline seems to have been the driver for recruits. I know there has always been an 'in to Service' quota for each trade and branch but with the pipe varying in length from a few months to 3 years there was little scope for stopping output by closing the inlet tap.

Shutting the inlet and outlet taps 3 years ago was the only way to stop it but of course everyone in the pipe was then in the hold. Your point that the pipe should have been drained and flow reduced to a trickle is valid.

Of course a large pipe with a continual input of students needs to run at capacity to produce the lowest cost per trainee.

But that large pipe has meant a disproportionately high number of staff in training billets which denuded the front line of experience which demanded more recruits to replace them.

["Running in"]

Wannabe, have you considered approaching the RN? There are several guys in your position who have transferred, some are already in flying training.

[zigzag369]

As one of the pilot studes to be made redundant I would just like to dispel the notion that many/most of us landed on our feet within commercial aviation post redundancy. Whilst it's true that some guys went off to Cathay and others (typically post Wings) got other flying jobs the reality is that a large majority are doing things not related to flying. Some have chosen other careers whilst others are still striving to achieve their flying dreams-however the road is long and expensive.

To the OP, be happy with what you have. If flying is what you want to do then bide your time, take the money and make the most of the opportunities available. If you don't, and you choose to leave, make sure you have a good plan-the job market is very crowded for inexperienced 20/30-somethings atm, and the air force pays very well in comparison.

:ok:

[Brian 48nav]

Check your PMs please.

[Biggus]

zz369,

First of all I'm sorry for what happened to you - and wish you well for the future.


WannabeCrewman is a big boy (person?) who can make his/her own mind up, all we can do is offer advice/opinions/suggestions. However, I disagree with your advice (but not your right to offer it).

First of all remember that the OP isn't on substantive Sgts pay, so their pay presumably isn't huge (I know about all the fringe benefits, cheap accommodation, free gym, healthcare, etc), probably what graduate entry jobs are paying in the civil world. However, and this is my main point. Presumably the OP is still young, free and single, with no mortgage to pay, kids to clothe, feed, etc. It's just themselves they have to look after. People who join the military are generally proactive, they want to go out into the world and do something, make a mark, achieve, contribute, etc - as a rule they're not the sort of people who "play it safe". The OP seems to be faced with a five year wait, presumably during their early 20s, sitting on their hands during some of the most productive years of their life, with no real guarantee of anything at the end of it.

My advice would be for them to leave and get on with their life while they can.

However, the beauty of advice is that NOBODY HAS TO TAKE IT!!

Once again, best of luck with your personal future.

[Willard Whyte]

Looking at civvie street if you left in the next couple of yrs you could move back in with parents to save money. Buying your own place will cost, on a monthly basis, (very conservatively) £700 for mortgage/rent, £100 for council tax, utilities £60, £15 insurance, £100 travel costs to work, £40 gym, £10 dental = £1,025 pcm. That's very conservative and equates to around £12,000 a yr, a difference of around £9,500 extra costs over staying in the mess. So add £10k onto what you are paid just now, that is the minimum you would need to earn to have the same standard of living!

Most sensible folk would already be on the real property ladder rather than a glorified prison that is a mess. That makes a monthly difference of about £50 by your figures, or £10 by mine - although if anything more than an inspection does need doing dental would be rather more than that.

Plenty of well paid, and secure, jobs on the outside if one is prepared to take the leap. I'd opine the grass out here is verdantly lush, when I look back at what I left I realise that what was described as green is in fact brown.

[seadrills]

A pal of mine in the RN at Culdrose tells me it is just as bad .... At a recent wings parade the youngest expedient was 29. Additionally, a Merlin student pilot recently PVR'd only to be told he had a 5 year return of service - his response was that he only had 2 yrs left on his commission. The Grob problem has really screwed up the FAA flying training pipeline