Cost of flying in Australia

[pittss2b]

Roughly what is the cost to get dual in Cessna 172? Solo in a Cessna 172?

[Clearedtoreenter]

It varies a bit - as does the quality of planes and the 'service'. Try googling around but some places won't even advertise their prices. It's become much more expensive here in recent years with fuel price increases and more 'user overpays' policies - especially at capital city GA airports which are becoming very expensive now. One wonders how they stay in business as their returns disappear as their prices go up and more and more folks walk away. Nice quiet places fly these days though :-)

Here's one to get you started, probably near the top of the pile as they go..

Aircraft Hire - Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft, Pitts and more - Sydney, Australia (http://www.airborne-aviation.com.au/aircraft/)

[NIK320]

Rough average seems to be around 350 Dual, 270 Solo

[Jack Ranga]

We are cheaper than that by a fair whack. And an S model to boot! PM me if you are planning on Victoria :ok:

[pull-up-terrain]

Rough average seems to be around 350 Dual, 270 Solo
Those figures are about right if you are flying at a busier airport like Bankstown when you include landing costs. If i was you and live in NSW i would be looking at the less busy airports like Moruya and Camden, they also have some very old and very experienced instructors who have been instructors for decades. I know at Moruya it is definitely cheaper too (especially dual hours).

[Wally Mk2]

OMG it's out of control! Not to sure how any youngster can afford those $$$
I note with ref to that particular website that the cost for a 172 with either 160hp or 180 hp is the same for a couple of them, odd.
Any wonder that kids off the street are few & far between at those prices.

There's roughly $85-90 diff between solo & dual (C172), I wonder how much of that goes into the pocket of the instructor. Say $60 of that x 30hrs...not bad coin for just sitting there dreaming of that big shinny jet flying overhead:)

My local Aero club charges I think $160 solo for an older C172 so unless ya can't get to a local airfield then the major dromes are very expensive.

Wmk2

[kingRB]

Wally the hourly rate of a PA28 or a 172 back when I was a teenager in the 90's was also so prohibitively expensive I nor my parents could afford it. Not much has changed really.

Got my start in gliders instead :ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Adam, and to all in Canada,

From the March 2013 price list of The Royal Aero Club of WA (RACWA).....
(Situated in Perth, Western Australia)

C-172... Non-Member $272.80, Member Training $247.50, Member Private Hire $233.40,

Plus Instructor Fees $120/hr for instruction

Plus Jandakot Airport Landing fees, Full stop $30.20, T&G $4.10

A 3 hour 'Promo Pack' = $1,174.20. Includes all landings, Nav Manual & Notes ....and presumably the instructor.

$1 CAD = $0.966 AUD

Cheers:ok:

[Wally Mk2]

'king' when I started using drugs (flying) in 1979 ( I think) it was expensive also ( well I thought it was at the time anyway) but I did work 3 jobs to pay for my 'habit' (house/mortgage, wife kids etc) as I was determined but these days one would have to work a LOT more to pay for just one hr!
I bought along with 6 other guys a C150 (had to borrow the money for that to!) & most of us learnt to fly with I think only a couple of us continued on to make a career out of it ( we where the dumb ones!:)).

It just seams pretty much out of reach these days to Mr average off the street. Me takes me hat off to those that crawl their way up thru the ranks which I believe is a dying art.


Wmk2

[NIK320]

A 3 hour 'Promo Pack' = $1,174.20. Includes all landings, Nav Manual & Notes ....and presumably the instructor

Are you saying they not only charge just short of $400/hr for a 172, they also charge for notes and handouts?

[Jack Ranga]

30 frigging dollars a landing at Jandycott??

Out of control..........

[Clare Prop]

The actual cost inc GST for a C172 is about $25.75. The rest is the RACWA mark-up.

Looks like they are sticking around 20% on to touch and gos as well.

[MartinCh]

Whoa.

So how does the 'mark up on landing fees' work? Whatever the rates (pretty steep for me, having flown fixed wing or rotary in the USA and even there, for cheeeep), they should invoice the actual rates payable to airport authority/owner/whatever.
Without people flying their aircraft, there'd be no landing fees to pay, so it should be an inherent part of customer service.
I read that many GA pilots aren't too happy with RAC.

I'm heading to Perth in two months, do some gliding and rotary theory/conversion, but at those rates in Australia, I better stick to getting multi commercial instrument and FI in the USA and do quick conversion somewhere at smaller airport away from Jandakot, even if I end up flying helicopters in there.

I saw one of the Eastern side of Australia's school with 250/hr dual rates, which is what I can pay for old twin middle of nowhere in USA.. :-) Not that useful to have too much time in Geronimo Apache, as most schools seem to ask for 10hrs PIC on Seminole or Duchess for the META.

The way the training prices are (and I don't blame schools, really), it's almost comparable to UK prices with the high VAT (akin GST, but also for comm training).

[Pontius]

Bunbury Aero Club = $216/hr for the 172. That's for members. Non members pay a $50 surcharge. No landing fees, no congestion and all the free airspace you can eat :).

Don't know the dual rates, sorry.

[FokkerInYour12]

re landing fee "Mark up"

So who pays for auditing whether the landings, T&Gs at various locations (invoiced separately by JAH, Air Services, Avdata etc.) match the book entries and whether they were correctly charged to the hirer?

Not really outrageous at all.

As an aircraft owner I know how much time it takes.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re " As an aircraft owner I know how much time it takes. "

Me too Mr 'F',

Then try and argue with JAH over the number of T&G's....

Student / Hirer says 5, JAH says 7......who do ya think wins..??

And I operate only two aircraft.....

And for MartinCh,

Even the 20% or so is fairly 'transparent' to the client, But, for those organisations who do charge this little bit, they do have to cover the accountant's wages somehow....even I can understand that bit....

Over the year it all helps. If its of interest to you, I don't recoup this at all.
I just pay the invoice and pass it on - as is....

Cheers:}

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Ullo Nik,

I'm not 'saying' anything...I simply copied the rates from a brochure....

Don't shoot the messenger.....

Cheers:ok:

[Clare Prop]

With the right kind of software and an instructor paying attention there needn't be hours of checking. A bit of a mark up is fair enough, some charge more than others, each to their own. Overheads at the former GAAP airports are much more than they used to be and ever increasing. We are all getting squeezed by property developers who want to bleed us dry then boot us out. Unfortunately that has to be passed on to the customers one way or another.

No such thing as cheap flying.

I do wonder how much of the $120 an hour(ground and flight time) the RACWA instructors get? (Hypothetical, please don't answer here!)

[MartinCh]

Ex FG et al.,

The 250/hr dual rate wasn't for 172, obviously. Last time I flew couple hours in 150/152, I paid about 80 USD/hr dual rate, but that's another country/story. Haven't flown one in the US. Or some 60 USD for J3. In the US, C172 dual would be from 140 to 200/hr, depending on area, school, model/engine. I know, can't compare with Australia nowadays etc, but strong AUD doesn't help the initial shock.

Anything else I should find out about pricing/costs of airplane flying in Jandakot or Australia in general? I saw Bunbury advertising for senior-ish instructors on AFAP, but for an hour here and there, if at all, not sure worth going over. For some complex/RG flying for CPL conversion or more substantial training, probably worth it.

Clare Prop, for comparison, US FIs normally get 30-50% of the 30-45 USD/hr rate charged by school to students, unless they are independent/self-employed. Some expensive areas and advanced training may see 70-80 USD/hr for FI, but again, school's cut is considerable, too. Something nothing out of ordinary outside Europe and possibly Australia. Just get aircraft, instructor and airport to take off/land, likely without any landing fees, either.

[truthinbeer]

Before everyone spends alot of time and effort trying to advise on this post you should look at his nic (ID) which declares "pittss2b" and Harv's Air (http://www.harvsair.com). Undeclared interest?

[mostlytossas]

You can halve your flying costs by joining a syndicate.eg. At Parafield there is a long running Piper Archer 2 syndicate $140 / hr wet including all PF landing fees. You buy a share into it and sell it if you want to leave it later on. Share prices tend to hold or increase in value. Why pay a profit margin at a school if you don't have to. Other syndicates exist at BK and MB and many other places. If they are larger syndicates they tend to be quite affordable as the costs are shared across many members.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

To anybody about to start, the advice is clear and 'bleedin' obvious'....

GO TO A "COUNTRY" airport / flying training organisation....

You take-off, and you are IN the training area...
NO waiting and spending $$$'s seeking a clearance to T/O.
NIL delays.
1 hour on the tach = nearly that same hour 'learning'......some 'exceptions'!!
Usually NIL landing fees...
AND - a MUCH more 'sociable' flying training school, friendly service, better value for $$$'s spent, and most importantly - - MORE LEARNED from the increased volume of circuits = you can do 'cut lunch' B747 circuits later - IF YOU WISH!!!

There Ya Go..!!!
:}:}

[MartinCh]

ex fg,
I agree. I saw it myself, flying out of busy Delta airport in the US with lots of heli traffic by the school plus aeroplanes for training and bizjets. Then, last two seasons, I spent training and then instructing on temp work visa in same US state, flying helis mainly, at good Golf airport with controlled airspace around, not far from first one. Quite a difference and more value for billed time, besides other things.

People don't always fly at best value/money or 'sociable' place because of other commitments/time/travel.

That Parafield syndicate sounds pretty good value compared to average prices in Australia, indeed.

[Jack Ranga]

Now that's lateral thinking :D even if it's not the case he should go far ;)

[MartinCh]

Dr O,

it's all relative. I've been 'watching' situation across many countries aroudn the world, both rotary and fixed wing, probably way too much, compared to ordinary pilot with limited scope, ratings and plans to live/settle.

Yes, and NO. Your friend isn't right in the sense that self-sponsored flight training, especially fixed wing, the cost of it etc, would make it easier to make it. Past two decades saw many changes and hardly ever for better.

I'm getting the feeling that Australian job market is getting generally crap because of the sponsored ab-inition schemes and even regional twin turboprop operations outfits want certain amount of MEL time, so som GA progerssion folks get stuck, now that the 'feeder' airlines train more own and the career ladder is broken.

Regarding availability of training/funding. Well, maybe less unsecured loans, but then, in Australia you have the VET-FEE Help nowadays for structured courses with diploma/degree. New Zealand has few colleges that draw FULL funding from Uni style loan, making it easy for young lads with passion or desire, but not real commitment to such career and not easy starts, for helicopter training and similar for airplane training. Yes, more skydiving and charter ops etc in NZ or Australia, than some other countries, but still..

America/USA has the ex-military/veteran career change funding from govt. It varies, but generally, people only pay PPL and rest is paid for or at high percentage. Again, no need for funding. USA has large GA, training etc, so with their relatively low cost of flying/timebuilding, it's more doable than elsewhere.

Canada has some funding system in place for courses with diplomas, although not sure about percentage of pilots/trainees using it. Again, to detriment of 'mom and pop' schools that don't have structured syllabus affiliated with college/Uni.

Some European countries and handful of Asian, still have fully sponsored cadet schemes. Which gives jobs to US and Australia based flight schools, as well as some NZ ones. Rest of European nationals or those too old to qualify etc, spend GAZILLIONS of cash on training, normally. Then paying own TR for 737/320 often to just compete for jobs and nowadays the recruiters or airlines want time on type, which gave business those leeches aka 'line training' pay to fly schemes.

So yeah, if your friend has backup career/job and won't endanger his current family life by training, is strongly motivated and 'noting else will do' for life, then yes, he should go vor it, but not expect beds of roses. I still think that most English sspeaking countries, well, except |Canada, have doable career progression regarding GA and airline flying.
Helicopter jobs are more difficult because of flight time/experience after training, as most jobs are single pilot/PIC only, so if there arent' multicrew SIC jobs to go to after training, it's more difficult. Some countries have it easy, where there's little to no pilots (and ordinary people can't aofford to self-sponsor) and thus cadet schemes are used out of necessity.