Walsh gets his Vueling [Archive]

M.Mouse

24th Apr 2013, 17:44

Too bad spain is lacking self-esteem and becoming a mere shadow of its former aeronautical glory.

What an interesting statement.

British Airways must be happy as they continue taking their part of the sweet cake and expanding in Spain. Meanwhile...unemployment is rising 27% and Unions related to Iberia such as SEPLA which is in both Iberia and Vueling are agree with the situation. Once more Spain is solving the problems of the others, British Airways.

I know that a great deal of venom has been directed at BA by Iberia staff there is also an enormous amount of untrue propaganda being spread as well.

Perhaps you could expand your argument with some facts and figures in order that those not directly involved can understand what you are referring to when you say that Spain is solving the problems of others.

I have no axe to grind but from my observations there is a worldwide trend happening of long established legacy airline staff having to adapt or die. None of us may like it but like King Canute trying to hold back the tide I would suggest that trying to prevent the changes necessary is ultimately impossible.

4468

24th Apr 2013, 18:12

I'm not sure NEWYEAR IS blaming BA.

In a post from 18 months ago, when he referred to 'WE' in Iberia, he said:
When planning work is not done now joins the game of lies. Iberia A340 aircraft that are removed for not being profitable, they are on other airlines. And even in the very Iberia A340 fleet continues to operate every day with a record occupancy.

And if that were not enough, why not accept the B777 offered by British to be operated for Iberia?

Poor planning and lies. But that's not the problem ...

The real problem is that there is no future, because there is no strategy for growth, there is no illusion or bosses to be leaders. Iberia is a patient who is dying in his own depression.

Workers have a duty to rebel against the leaders of Iberia to avoid a death foretold of the company. And like the angry, find the formula to organize and act against the management to change course Iberia suicide.

Sounds like he puts the demise of IB down to poor planning and lies? Probably a fair comment?

M.Mouse

24th Apr 2013, 18:48

Once more Spain is solving the problems of the others, British Airways.

I am sorry I must have misunderstood that sentence.

Carbon Brakes 300

24th Apr 2013, 18:53

L.B. Id highly suggest you review aeronautical archive ref: spains contribution to aviation. There are scores of historical achievements but Ill leave it to you to research before your retraction( hopefully. )
From the first east west crossing with the Plus Ultra, through Ciervos gyrocopter nonwithstanding that vacational holiday charter flights started from LEPA with a company called Spantax ( founderRudy Bay ) which gave way to many many other international operators in europe and beyond.
Spanish ATC ? Many gripes from mainly british posters. Me, I've yet to see a perfect world
out there but , you know, you guys lucked out that english was chosen as the aeronautical language of choice with spanishcoming a very close second . My point is pilots and controllers are victims of our pathetic ministerio de fomento and its bunker mentality.
I' ve pretty much flown the world so I can say nowhere is as bad as is said and usually not as good as many think.
What is not acceptable is your questioning spains gloriius aeronautical contribution to history.

Charlie Pop

24th Apr 2013, 19:00

Glorious Spanish aeronautical contributions to history? Now if you said American, or French, or German then I'd agree. But Spain?:confused:

cldrvr

24th Apr 2013, 19:35

The Spanish needed the Germans to sort out their auto industry, now it is the turn of the Brits to put IB into shape.

Vuelling and IB express are a good start, move all the shorthaul to those 2, turn them into a LCC and have IB focus on just longhaul to the markets that they are strong in (that's is few if any, but it can change)

They just need to sort out their service, fleet and attitude. IB ranks as one of the worst carriers in the world (as voted by their own pax).

zondaracer

24th Apr 2013, 20:26

Yes guys, the Spanish have contributed greatly to aeronautical history by building the first autogyro!

dav_vader

24th Apr 2013, 20:39

By the way, we invented the GYROSCOPIC ARTIFICIAL HORIZON (GYRO HORIZON).

CARLOS de HAYA (INVENTIONS) (http://www.carlosdehaya.com/invento-integral_en.htm)

Besides many other inventions, Lacierva ( Juan de la Cierva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_de_la_Cierva) ) was a great engineer and airman.

Next time you before blamming spanish achievments, take a little review in google. Probably we will surprise you

Carbon Brakes 300

24th Apr 2013, 20:40

My God, it' s true, ignorance abounds, runs rampant amongst the proudest

cldrvr

24th Apr 2013, 20:55

They still hold the record for the deadliest aviation accident.

dav_vader

24th Apr 2013, 20:58

They still hold the record for the deadliest aviation accident.

Because of an arrogant dutch captain.

paully

24th Apr 2013, 21:39

Carbon Brakes

You are quick to deride posters on here for their comments, but so far have failed to educate the rest of us on the glorious achievements of Spanish aviation, other than one passing reference to Spantax, of all people, that ran clapped out crap and collapsed like a pack of cards.

Please tell us what we have missed, dont bother about it being a lengthy post, we will take our time reading it....Looking forward to it :rolleyes:

Frank Duran

24th Apr 2013, 22:53

STM Member

"Not very glorious if you ask me".
It is obvious that nobody is going to ask you about such matter, as it is also obvious you are an ignorant and, most likely, british.

Locked door

25th Apr 2013, 02:52

Come on people, this is childish. Get back on track about what Iberia needs to do to get back to profitability and hopefully thrive.

transilvana

25th Apr 2013, 03:19

Get rid of the brits and Iberia will rise numbers again, it´s 17th century again, brits pirates attacking spanish ships abroad to get the gold.

Now we have vueling being sold by???? one ex-minister (president) and one CEO who has worked for the brits for quite a time before comming to Vueling.

Problem is spanish unions and Iberia workers don´t have the guts to go on a real strike, burnt a couple 0f 320´s, collapse the system and show the brits not to **** around with them.

But this will not happens as the country is like it is, 100% politically corrupted, sadly it´s becomed another banana republic.

Bidule

25th Apr 2013, 05:59

Next step is Vueling taking the BA European operation out of LGW. One year, two years?

airsmiles

25th Apr 2013, 06:51

This is the worst thread I've seen on PPRuNe for a long time. Just one long slagging match and no intellectual debate. Where are the moderators?

The Spanish have contributed to Airbus Military in Spain and I've worked with them and vouch for their quality work. If you look at the Voyager PFI you'll notice that AIBM in Getafe are bringing back on track an ailing conversion program, which a UK company fell behind on.

Spantax might have had it's problems but the planes I flew on weren't as bad as some of the rubbish I've flown on within the USA recently. I recently managed 3 out of 5 seriously delayed flights for technical reasons with a mailine US operator. The interiors were well past their prime also. Spain has successful airlines in Air Europa and Vueling, so as a country they have the ability to operate well run airlines.

IAG (not BA) is only doing what the Spanish Government didn't have the balls to do years ago, so don't blame them. It could have been any number of private airlines who would do the hard job of turning IB around.

As for this:-

Problem is spanish unions and Iberia workers don´t have the guts to go on a real strike, burnt a couple 0f 320´s, collapse the system and show the brits not to **** around with them

..... so that approach will really create a world-class and profitable Iberia with a sustainable future? Here lies the fundamental problem; let's show the management we mean business rather than think about the long-term consequences.

The medicine is painful but Vueling short-haul + a long-haul focused IB supported by IAG is probably the best long-term solutions.

Now what about some speculation. What would happen if IAG acquired TAP? What about a combined Spain/Portugal Vueling based short-haul operation with a co-ordinated IB long-haul network from the whole of the Iberian Peninsula? Viable/Good/Bad?

gcal

25th Apr 2013, 07:02

For what it's worth I fly regularly on Vueling and they have a very good product.
The cabin staff are invariably polite and time keeping (that I have experienced) has been excellent.
The attention to safety by the cabin crew would put many other companies to shame.
Yes the legroom is a bit tight but so it is on many other carriers and at least I am flying on mostly new aircraft and I get frequent flyer miles (Puntos).
It seems a thoroughly decent set up.

Capetonian

25th Apr 2013, 07:10

Iberia has been a disgrace and an embarrassment to the Spanish nation for many years. It needs to get rid of the old management style and then change the attitude that it is run for the convenience and benefit of its employees and their friends and families. That is the underlying problem.

It needs to invest money in staff training, particularly the ground staff at Madrid Barajas.

With the near monopolies it has on many routes, and the loyalty of the Spanish to their own airlines (mainly because so many Spanish are monoglots) it has the potential to be a good profitable airline. Realising that potential will be a titanic struggle.

vctenderness

25th Apr 2013, 07:58

The first country in history to build half a dozen airports and never use them is a pretty good marker in history isn't it?

dav_vader

25th Apr 2013, 13:56

Iberia needs a deep transformation, that´s for sure. But probably the first step is to get back the cash money from 12 years of profit, and start renewing the fleet. Besides that, it´s very important to improve their customer relation manegement. But initially with few changes Iberia could return to positive figures in a short period.

Iberia has suffered a lot from very bad management and also political influention. From the early begining many of the wrong decision Iberia has taken, went from the goverment, the development ministry and dark interestes. Just an example the awful decision of renew the short/medium range fleet with MD instead of Boeing (it was a political decision, contrary to the pilots, marketing and management in order to get a better price in the buy of F/A 18 fighters)

As an spaniard, it´s pretty difficult to understand how IB states that the Montevideo route is not profitable and AF has take the gap and make it profitable. Add also the HAV, LAX, SDQ, FOR,.... and of course many of the european routes that add passangers to the long-haul ops.

And yes, you are right we do have half a dozen of useless airports ( I will say a Dozen) but that is shamefully decision that took our goverment looking for benefits in their own pockets instead of the spanish people. One thing that we are full responsible is to vote again and again the same the two political party.

Just my 2 cents

SOPS

25th Apr 2013, 14:20

At one stage Iberia seemed to have a least 2 examples of every airliner built....sort of like an aviation Noah's Arc!,,

Capetonian

25th Apr 2013, 14:29

I don't think they were ever quite as bad as Alitalia who seemed to operate about 10 different a/c types on MIL-ROM!

Heathrow Harry

25th Apr 2013, 14:31

I'm sure there was something to be said for everyone......

airsmiles

25th Apr 2013, 14:41

Just an example the awful decision of renew the short/medium range fleet with MD instead of Boeing

Which MD order are we referring to and when? IB had a long history with Douglas/MD, so might have had a good deal to follow on from years of loyal DC8/DC9/DC10 operation.

They also bought the B757 and got rid of them quickly, so you could question their Boeing purchases as well.

dav_vader

25th Apr 2013, 15:03

As far as I know, All the people involved in the renewing of the fleet at that moment choose the B737 because it fitted much better than the MD (I´m not sayin that MD are worst than the Boeing).

The mix of routes, operating in Barajas (high temperature, altitude) clearly put in advantage the Boeing, but finally, becuase Spain was involved in the purchase of new air force fighters (f/a 18) forced the company to get the MD together with the f/a18 for a better deal. Later on we could also talk aboute the money behind the tape of that decision.

When later on IB decided to renew again the fleet and make it an all airbus fleet, a lot of mistakes were taken. The A340 was not the better choice for the long haul, leaving a lot of cargo because of the high temperatures in summer and the lack of MTOW of the airbus. Once again it was more a political decision than an airline decision. (CASA, and Airbus spain employed a lot of people in spain).

Iberia is also very reactionary to open new routes and that has put iberia on a second position in some markets (Asia). With a little of effort iberia could manage the cargo and the passengers from south America to Asia.

And of course, the Management. It´s very difficult to cut jobs, reduce salarys, put in shape a company, when your CEO, the hundreds of managing directors, and many others don´t even help or understand that some decisions have to start from the top to the bottom, not always in the bottom and never reach the top.

It´s more than 10 years since I quitted Iberia but I can see that nothing has been done for a long time, and the merge with BA doesn´t help.

gcal

25th Apr 2013, 16:33

@Day Vader
It is not a merger with BA it is that the two companies are now owned by the same holding company, which is IAG.
IB has not merged with BA no money can pass from IB to BA.
There is still a lingering misunderstanding in Spain as to how private companies work.
Still now, decades after other countries, an unwillingness to accept a changed world which is not all state monopoly.
IB cannot continue as it is now and must change if it is to survive. It may well come out of this more lean, stronger, and better geared to an international market.
IAG is giving IB a chance to change and that change is needed.

testpanel

25th Apr 2013, 20:40

dav-vader:

can you confirm (or even deny) that thanks to the ib pilots "union" ib was "forced" to buy 4-engine (AB)-frames (since the guy and girls did not want to cross the atlantic on "only" 2....:ugh:)
(sorry we are talking years ago....but still.)

dav_vader

25th Apr 2013, 21:44

can you confirm (or even deny) that thanks to the ib pilots "union" ib was "forced" to buy 4-engine (AB)-frames (since the guy and girls did not want to cross the atlantic on "only" 2....:ugh:)

I´m not a pilot and really I don´t know if that is completely true, but if it is, B744 was a more suitable frame for IB.

It is not a merger with BA it is that the two companies are now owned by the same holding company, which is IAG.
IB has not merged with BA no money can pass from IB to BA.
That is completely the opposite of what we hear in Spain. The CEO of Iberia always talked about a merge with BA in 50/50 conditions.
There is still a lingering misunderstanding in Spain as to how private companies work.
I´m not very agree with this. We have many private companies who are succesfull, like Zara, Ferrovial (BAA), Telefonica (o2 in uk), Repsol,...
Still now, decades after other countries, an unwillingness to accept a changed world which is not all state monopoly.
IB cannot continue as it is now and must change if it is to survive. It may well come out of this more lean, stronger, and better geared to an international market.
IAG is giving IB a chance to change and that change is needed.
Completely agree, but the way IAG is giving a chance to Iberia sounds more likely hanging up.
IAG has made a big order for new generation airframes and no one is dedicated to IB, IB is firing people where BA is growing. The slots of IB in LHR are now for the only use of BA, IB has only 50 frames when years ago was over one hundred, IB operated 1000 flights a day and now they are around 400. So, do you really think that IAG is giving a chance to IB, or perhaps they are shrinking the company in order to swallow with only one bite.

Charlie Pop

25th Apr 2013, 22:12

Completely agree, but the way IAG is giving a chance to Iberia sounds more likely hanging up.
IAG has made a big order for new generation airframes and no one is dedicated to IB, IB is firing people where BA is growing. The slots of IB in LHR are now for the only use of BA, IB has only 50 frames when years ago was over one hundred, IB operated 1000 flights a day and now they are around 400. So, do you really think that IAG is giving a chance to IB, or perhaps they are shrinking the company in order to swallow with only one bite.

IAG do not dictate how Iberia is run. Iberia management dictate how Iberia is run. IAG tell Iberia management what strategic goals they need to achieve (primarily economic) and Iberia management have to implement it. It would be interesting to compare the economic targets for BA and IB given to their respective managements and see if they are different.

IB is firing people because IB is losing money and IAG will not transfer money from it's shareholders or from BA to prop up a loss-making company. If IB wants to grow it needs to make a profit, otherwise it just becomes a bottomless pit of shareholders cash.

IB slots at LHR are all used by IB. BA don't use IB slots, and have actually reduced their services to MAD in favour of Iberia, who operate an A340 to LHR now.

There is no point in having 100 airframes and operating 1000 flights per day if you do not make a profit. There seems to be a collective failure on the part of many Spanish posters here to recognise that the world has changed. They don't seem to be capable of understanding that in a nation in the grip of economic catastrophe and which has 27% unemployment that the old ways are gone. The market that propped Iberia up has collapsed, and the competition within Europe and Latin America is now cheaper than Iberia and offering a better product. Instead they prefer to blame the British "Pirates" and fabricate stories about their money being fraudulently spirited away to London. Hell I even read about one Spanish politician saying it was a disgrace that IB was being forced to cancel it's Havana flight so that BA could take the passengers instead; BA don't even fly to Havana!!

IAG don't need to swallow IB, they already own it. What they need is for Iberia to start earning it's keep. Nobody owes IB an existence. They either start to make a profit or they end up like Sabena.

dav_vader

25th Apr 2013, 22:57

IB management is doing horrible, but they increase their bonus. Iberia had black figures till a couple of years ago, so as BA was having red ones. I cannot get the exactly figures but I'm quite sure I am right.

I would really like to know what are the reasons behind the IAG consolidation and the role of Antonio Vázquez. Probably is a coincidence but he was also involved in the Tabacalera-Altadis-Imperial Tobbaco merge. Another spanish firm that is finally sold to British.

Nevertheless I do agree IB has to change a lot, and make profit, but not all the responsability is on the employees. In fact many people is leaving the company, but no one of them are the executive directors who drove IB from profits to loses.

airsmiles

26th Apr 2013, 05:51

IB slots at LHR are all used by IB. BA don't use IB slots, and have actually reduced their services to MAD in favour of Iberia, who operate an A340 to LHR now

That's not all true actually. BA still run multiple daily flights to Madrid, many with 767's. The early evening IB flight has been a long-haul aircraft decades. Originally with DC-8's, then DC-10's and now A340/A330's. I'm sure BA and IB both generally run the same schedule pattern and equipment types they've always done.

hunterboy

26th Apr 2013, 07:22

I believe IB do one or two more flights per day to/ from LHR than before the "merger". It made a big difference to us MAD commuters, especially when BA's staff Tvl site couldn't cope with the ticketing.

dav_vader

26th Apr 2013, 08:40

Besides the MAD Flights, IB used to hava a daily AGP-LHR, ALC-LHR, SVQ-LHR and many others flights that nowadays are being operated by BA, former GB airways.

172driver

26th Apr 2013, 09:57

Besides the MAD Flights, IB used to hava a daily AGP-LHR, ALC-LHR, SVQ-LHR and many others flights that nowadays are being operated by BA, former GB airways.

Correct, BUT: IB stopped these flights quite some time before the "merger". Not sure if that had anything to do with being in the same (OneWorld) alliance. Btw, at least the LHR-AGP and LHR-SVQ flights were, in my very frequent experience on them, always full. Would be interesting to know why they were pulled.

Aksai Oiler

26th Apr 2013, 13:57

WRONG - LHR-SVQ was gifted by IB to VY whom dropped it for an extra BIO if I remember correctly. BA picked up LHR-AGP after EasyJet bought GB Airways; the IB AGP-LHR was dropped at least 5 years ago. Today BA has dropped LHR-AGP, in favour of LGW-AGP; and I for one would love to see a flight from either SVQ, XRY or AGP to LHR; it would make my twice-a month commute to PEK a lot easier.

All I see from the likes of dav_vader are the same old excuses and blame it on the Brits; without many Brits, Germans, Dutch, Russians and Scandinavians Spain would be in an even sorrier state. IB is a basket case, to survive it needs to be reorgansed, which is what rightly or wrongly IAG are trying to do.

I don't work for BA, but I am a long suffering customer of IB, which I currently choose to avoid due to piss poor customer service

Carbon Brakes 300

26th Apr 2013, 15:19

Thank You Zeb. Clearly you know Spain well. The original post has as usual turned into a wild mud slinging session, in which brits strike out at spain and its glorious aviation history when all I wanted to express was our dismay and sense of total impotence as we see a planned and fine tuned dissolution of our aeronautical control over ourselves while
our authority sits on its ass head sunk in sand.

Frank Duran

26th Apr 2013, 15:28

I fail to see any excuse by dar_vader, just few facts to which I can add this one : while IB was making money before the merger, BA was loosing it. Just after the merger , situation was reverted the other way around. These are facts, sheer facts.
WRONG you, damn wrong, subjective comments by a pissed traveler.

Frank Duran

26th Apr 2013, 15:35

My previous post was a reply to Oiler even though I use to avoid to 'feed the troll'.

Aksai Oiler

27th Apr 2013, 07:18

Just like you I am entitled to my own opinion. I don't see any facts just conjecture from any argument which states just because a British register business has invested in Spain, that Spanish investment has been sent to the wall; all I hear are pissed off employees/former employees.

I don't see the Spanish State doing that much to get IAG to throw money away supporting IB - considering that Bankia, IAG's largest sharholder is a state owned/partially state owned enterprise. As an investor I also want to see a return on my investment, so from my point of view a re-org of IB is long overdue. Also from my point of view IB is a basket case, in more ways than one.

As for being a pissed traveller - so what? Without travellers, pissed, legless or not, Pilots, Cabin Crew and Ground Staff would have no job in the first place.

Omnipresent

27th Apr 2013, 09:53

Time will tell what happens with Vueling, but in the short/medium term I would have thought that the replacement of Iberia's CEO, Rafael Sánchez-Lozano, with Luis Gallego, CEO of Iberia Express, is just as significant. IAG clearly thinks there is a lot more to do at Iberia.

Charlie Pop

27th Apr 2013, 10:38

few facts to which I can add this one : while IB was making money before the merger, BA was loosing it. Just after the merger , situation was reverted the other way around. These are facts, sheer facts.

Are they? How do you explain Iberias €273M loss in 2009, before the merger? Looks like Iberia was well on the road to losses even before IAG existed. BA only made a loss twice between 2006 and the present day, those losses being in financial years 08/09 and 09/10, the same period in which IB made it's loss.

Ex Cargo Clown

27th Apr 2013, 14:06

Always found IB crew both front and back to be professional, and friendly. The ground staff however were incompetent and lazy with a Mañana attitude.

Typical conversation; Me "This piece of freight won't fit", response "It will fit will definitely fit in an AKH, just do it", Me " Will do as you say, but you do realise the aircraft is an MD" Silence

Absolutely useless

Fairdealfrank

27th Apr 2013, 17:04

27% unemployment in Spain is shocking! Spain was doing quite well out of EU membership, but threw it all away by becoming part of the eurozone area. We can argue all day about the state of Spain, and posters on this thread appear determined to do this, but eurozone membership is the cause of all its present troubles.

Of course Spain is not alone in this and the bail outs and the accompanying "austerity" cannot go on indefinitely. Spain and the others will only resolve their problems by leaving the eurozone area. Failure to do this will result in social and political unrest accross much of Europe.

It should be obvious to all that monetary union based on politics rather than converging economies is a recipe for disaster, but apparently not.

Interestingly 5 of the 6 EU "club med" countries are in deep trouble and so are their national carriers. IB is not alone: TP is up for sale, AZ is in trouble, OA is no longer with us, and CY is on its last legs.