STALLS IN PPL SKILL TEST

[scotsonslad]

Can anyone help.

I am taking my PPL Skill test in 2 weeks time (weather permitting) and am getting myself really worked up about the stalls. I had a bad experience last week when practicing. The instructor was demonstrating what the worse case stalls were like and to be honest it put the wind up me so much that I forgot everything and made a complete mess.
I am now really worried about the stalls in the skill test.
Could anyone tell me what to really expect in the test please.

[englishal]

Go up with your instructor and practice stalls until you are completely comfortable with them. There is nothing to fear ! The examiner just wants to see you can recover from them safely.

Best stall experiences I had were stalling upside down at the top of a loop (and falling with style as I mucked up the recovery and ended up going earthwards with full power on and a laughing FI next to me) and stalling a Citation deliberately :E...and hey I am not the bravest pilot in the world either, I used to be a bit wary of stalling until we did all manner of stalls .....accelerated stalls, turning stalls, etc....then I became comfortable doing that stuff.

[Heston]

Presumably you have done one or more lessons on stalling (you wouldn't be ready for your skills test if you haven't). I guess therefore that your instructor was showing you that even an alarming-feeling stall can be recovered from perfectly well by following the correct recovery action.

In the skills test you will be asked to demonstrate stalls and the correct recovery action. Just do them as you have been taught. No drama. Remember to do a HASEL check first.

Stalls as an exercise are fun. If they are not fun for you yet, then you need to do more. Why not get some more practice before the test? Also talk with your instructor about them and see what s/he says - you need to be able to recover automatically.

[riverrock83]

You might find this useful:
FLYER Forums ? View topic - My Skills Test (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82546)

Expect to do a number of stalls to incipient stage as well as fully developed, in clean, approach and turning final configuration. You will be in control of the aircraft - examiner will just prompt.

All comes down to practice. Also in my test it was near the end, so if nav tires you out then you need to make sure you are properly on top of them.

I must admit I quite enjoy stalling - but then I haven't tried to stall inverted...

[Arclite01]

a couple of things............

sometimes the instructor does stalls at a high AOA just because they enjoy them...........but it makes the inexperienced student feel nervous (to say the least) - but it can help to emphasize the teaching and learning points of the stall so not always bad..............

Also I find when I am practicing stalling and recovery that if I talk about what I am seeing/doing it helps................

so:

Approaching the stall - look for Nose high attitude, decreasing airspeed,lack of control effectiveness as you approach the stall

Stall itself - see that nose pitches down even with stick/yoke held back, buffet as airflow separates, high sink rate (see VSI), possible wing drop...........

Recovery - apply full power, control column/yoke centrally forward, wait until you have flying speed and rising............. recover from the dive and return to wings level, reduce the power and settle back to your normal attitude

It will also show the examiner that you know what is happening (situational awareness) and how to cope with it. As others have said - more practice at stalling and recovery is a good way to help remove the fear a bit.

I was always taught 'I hear - I forget' , 'I see - I remember' and 'I do - I understand'


Hope this helps

Arc

[foxmoth]

First, as has been said, YOU will be flying during the skills test, so you can carry out the stalls at YOUR comfort level as long as you are actually showing the examiner what is asked (e.g. for fully developed you should not be recovering at the light buffet).
Apart from the skills test though it would be interesting to know what the instructor did that put you off so much. As has been said, practice helps, but so does proper teaching, I instruct at UH where we teach stalling in the APPL course, this looks at most aspects of stalling in depth and I have always found that the students actually find it more fun than they thought it would be and have rarely found anyone that thinks of it as frightening once we have covered this part of the syllabus.

[slw29]

I had my skills test a few months ago and the advice I'd give is that the recovery from the stall is just to do as the textbooks say, namely control column CENTRALLY FORWARD to break the stall on the wings.
It is not a drastic nosedive forwards, just a gentle but prompt movement. A key thing the examiner will be looking for is that you do not use the ailerons, which can risk putting you into a spin - hence centrally forward.
So it's not something to be afraid of as it should be relatively gentle.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

sometimes the instructor does stalls at a high AOA just because they enjoy them..........

Ummm... ALL stalls are done at the stalling AoA. That's what a stall is! You cannot do one at a greater AoA (it will already have stalled at stall AoA) or at a lesser AoA (it hasn't yet reached stall AoA).

And of course stalling at the top of a loop (or anywhere else in the loop - the Yak did it readily during second half!) is almost certainly an erect stall despite the aeroplane being upside down - unless you are pushing forward quite hard on the stick which is most unlikely at that point.

Regarding the OP, stalls for the flight test are pretty benign IIRC and your instructor will have shown you (and got you to show him) the correct technique, else you wouldn't be being put forward for the test.

[Bornfreee]

Scotsonslad,

You should be fully briefed by your examiner on the day of the test and if you are unsure about anything, then ask for clarification.

The examiner is not looking for perfection, no one has a perfect flight, what they will be assessing is if you are operating safety, using the correct technique and trying to operate within the tolerences of the PPL skills test.

Typically you will be required to demonstrate 3 stalls.

1. Fully developed in the clean configuration, recovery either at the fully developed stage or when the examiner says recover, make sure you know what he, she wants.

2. Recovery from the incipient stage in the base to final configuration and in a turn.

3. Recovery from the incipient stage in the landing configuration, straight ahead wings level.

I don't know which aircraft you are using but the majority of training aircraft are pretty docile in the stalling regime, though some like the Cessna 150/152 can drop a wing, which may cause concern but is nothing really to worry about, don't let that aspect phase you, the recovery actions are still the same.

With recovery in the fully developed stall, make sure you keep your ailerons neutral in the entry into the stall and when recovering. As stated before on here, to recover just release that back pressure on the control column (ensuring you hold it central though) until the stall Warner/buffet stops (you have now broken the stall) and simultaneously apply full power (think rudder) , take a brief look at ASI and with sufficient climbing speed look outside and adopt the climb attitude.

What the examiner doesn't want to see is

1. use of aileron close to or in the recovery from the stall.
2. Pitching down far too much (looking at the ground) and so loosing too much height
3. recovery via instruments rather than looking outside.

Demonstrate to him/her that you can safely recover from a stall with not too much height loss and you will get a tick in that box of the test.

Good luck :)

[welkyboy]

Do NOT apply full power before easing the control column forward, I had a nasty experience in a Hawk Trainer many years ago when applying full power before breaking the stall, we performed a perfect flick roll and ended up in a spin which wasn't approved for that type of aircraft, needless to say we did eventually pull out of the spin and returned promptly to Elstree. ....

[riverrock83]

Do NOT apply full power before easing the control column forward, I had a nasty experience in a Hawk Trainer many years ago when applying full power before breaking the stall, we performed a perfect flick roll and ended up in a spin which wasn't approved for that type of aircraft, needless to say we did eventually pull out of the spin and returned promptly to Elstree. ....
Aircraft specific welkyboy. You can do it simultaneously in most aircraft. Yes the key is to lower the AOA of the wings by pushing forward on the stick, but recovery works best with immediate power.

He wont be doing his PPL in a Hawk Trainer!! (unless I suppose its a different type of aircraft with the same name...)
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/60427000/jpg/_60427067_010889403-1.jpg

[S-Works]

Speaking as a PPL Examiner......

Standard stall recovery..... Reduce angle of attack and once aircraft is flying smoothly and progressively apply power ensuring that you apply rudder as required. Then pitch up and climb.

It does not need a massive pitch down, just enough decrease its AoA to start lying again.

Generally speaking if the stall Warner has gone off the aircraft is flying again. Think about the scale of where the stall Warner goes off, its above the actual stall so as soon as it stop you are no longer stalled and can then apply the power part of the recovery.

If you apply power at the same time as the pitch change I would fail you as you are effectively trying to drive out of the stall rather than proper recovery.

So.....

Reduce AoA, get flying, apply power climb away. Simples.

As far as a PPL skill test is concerned as an examiner we should only ever being doing the standard stalls not trying to push the extremes of the envelope.

[MacSki]

Perhaps a slightly different view which may help....

I too had a hard time dealing with stalls. I knew exactly why we did them, understood all the techniques etc but found it difficult and hated doing them.

I made my mind up a week or so before my skills test that having gone through various hoops to be in the position of being ready for the skills test, all written exams passed and QXC done I was not going to let the stall exercise fail me. Two days before my planned test I went out with my instructor and asked him to put me under test conditions and get me performing the stalls as I would in my test. This helped me enormously as it all went well although it wasnt a happy lesson!

I'll be honest that I was still very wary about stalling just before the test but reasoned that I would have a very experienced person sat next to me so if things did go really wrong he would help recover us anyway.

I did the nav exercise first then near my home airfield was asked to do the instrument flying then set up for a stall, because I'd already had feedback that the previous bits had gone well there was no way I was going to let the stalls cause me problem and I managed to execute them confidently, if I'm honest probably for the first time! I wasn't tired despite having flown for over an hour already, I actually felt energised, adrenaline I guess and a good examiner who was reassuring in his manner.

I agree with an earlier comment that talking through helped but above all you can fly so go and prove it, safely.

Good luck.

Mac

[BEagle]

Standard stall recovery..... Reduce angle of attack and once aircraft is flying smoothly and progressively apply power ensuring that you apply rudder as required. Then pitch up and climb.

That is NOT Standard Stall Recovery for SEP Class aeroplanes (which requires minimum loss of height) - it is (almost, but not quite...) something which has dribbled down from the latest techniques taught to brain-dead airline pilots whose inadequate handling skills have required further instruction.

Standard Stall Recovery is:

1. Full power and control column centrally forward UNTIL a pitch attitude is reached at which the stall warning ceases; don't pitch further and ensure you maintain slip indication central at all times.

2. Level wings and recover from descent.

[Level Attitude]

Speaking as a PPL Examiner......

Standard stall recovery..... Reduce angle of attack and once aircraft is flying
smoothly and progressively apply power ensuring that you apply rudder
as required. Then pitch up and climb.

So.....

Reduce AoA, get flying, apply power climb away. Simples.


I agree that reducing the AoA is the most important (only) way of
recovering from a stall.

But, as BEagle says, your description is NOT a Standard Stall Recovery
and is NOT what should be looked for in a PPL Skill Test.

The aim of a SSR is to recover from a stall/impending stall with minimum
height loss and, to acheive this, full power should be applied at the same
time (or only just slightly behind) the AoA being reduced by moving
the Stick forward.

From CAA Handling Sense Leaflet 2:

o Move the control yoke (column) centrally
forward to unstall the wings .
o Simultaneously apply full power (if available),
keeping the aircraft in balance.


Then, once the aircraft is un-stalled (flying smoothly) Roll (with ailerons)
the wings horizontal if required and then pitch up in to a climbing (my pref.)
or level flight attitude.

[BackPacker]

Regardless of what the SSR technique really is... Look at stalls and stalling in the context of the larger picture of flying, PPL-style.

Unless you are going to fly aerobatics, the only time you should ever come close to the stall (and possibly hear the stall warner), during a normal post-PPL flight, is in the flare, when you are just centimeters from the runway. At any other time, hearing the stall warner or otherwise getting the signals of an impending stall (sloppy controls, high nose attitude, diminishing speed, buffetting, whatnot) is BAD.

What your examiner will want to see most of all is that you are able to recognize the signs of an impending stall, and are able to PROMPTLY recover from that dangerous condition. The examiner may push you a little bit and tell you to ignore the first signs so that you can demonstrate the recovery from an actual stalled condition, but at the end of the day the recognition is key.

So if you end your PPL training, and start your PPL exam, with a healthy respect for the stall, are focused at recognizing the signs of an impending stall, and are able to promptly recover from a near-stalled situation by unloading the wings, you honestly have nothing to worry about.

Sure, you can nitpick about how long you should wait between reducing the AoA and applying full power, but that discussion is only valid in a limited context. How do you think gliders recover from the stall? They don't have any power to add, and only have AoA to play with. And what your instructor might have demonstrated to you (and what may have frightened you) is a full power stall. Again: How do you add more power if you are already at full power?

So, at the first signs of the stall, unload the wings. And if the examiner wants to push you and wants you to ignore the first signs of the stall, then at least verbally name the signs of the stall as soon as you notice (and ignore) them. When the moment to recover is there (and the examiner will tell you what sign to use as your cue), promptly unload the wings, then smoothly apply power (and corresponding rudder) to limit the loss of altitude.

[Another_CFI]

What is your instructor thinking of if he/she puts the aircraft into a situation that "it put the wind up me"? Surely he/she can conduct a demonstration without frightening his/her student?

[Pace]

I thought you guys recover at incipient nowadays ?
Fear is usually fear of the unknown and hence the best way out if that is to take the unknown away!
Practice full blown stalls in every configuration until you no longer fear them!

Pace

[S-Works]

That is NOT Standard Stall Recovery for SEP Class aeroplanes (which requires minimum loss of height) - it is (almost, but not quite...) something which has dribbled down from the latest techniques taught to brain-dead airline pilots whose inadequate handling skills have required further instruction.

I would suggest before such a smart arse robust reply you consult the ministry on current technique.

Reduce the AoA then smoothly apply power. Driving out of a stall these days is considered bad form. But hey, what would I know.....

[riverrock83]

See p14: Standards Document 19 (A): Notes for the Guidance of Applicants taking the PPL Skill Test (Aeroplanes) | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1206)

Fully developed stall...

Perhaps in some of the integrated schools the in house examiner will always tell the student to recover before the stall has fully developed? I doubt it. I've heard this idea of only going to incipient stage before but I'm not sure where its come from? Is it a non-UK thing?

However the instructor shouldn't be scaring their pupil. I'm guessing that the maneuver performed wasn't fully briefed? By recovering every time you should hopefully be able to build up the confidence.

[Maoraigh1]

I'm happy with stalling, and frequently practice solo, with and without power and airbrakes, but on checkouts I first check on when the instructor wants me to recover - stall warning, nose drop, etc. Then I try to keep him happy.

[BEagle]

Reduce the AoA then smoothly apply power. Driving out of a stall these days is considered bad form. But hey, what would I know...

Not enough, it would seem.

'Driving out of a stall' refers to the stupidity of FAA Examiners who expected 'TOGA, hold attitude, don't lose an inch', which is a killer in many aircraft.

So the pig-ignorant people-tube drones have been told that reducing AoA is of paramount importance. True. But full power (or thrust) in a typical pod-engined people-tube can aggrevate the stall by inducing a pitch rate which will cause the aircraft to exceed the stall AoA, thereby entering a region of unpredictable behaviour - particularly if the dull sods haven't noticed that the aircraft has trimmed itself continuously to the stall. However, this is NOT true of a typical SEP aeroplane, in which there should never be a reason to trim to less than the gliding speed - except, perhaps, during a deliberate short field approach.

Regrettably, the 'airline' technique appears to be infecting PPL training - a sad situation which must be robustly rejected!

Anyway, Standard Stall Recovery is:

1. Full power and control column centrally forward (keeping the ball in the middle).

2. Stop pitching once the stall warning / ident has ceased - whatever that might be.

3. Level wings and recover from descent.

[S-Works]

Planning on doing an Examiner renewal anytime soon Beagle? enjoy......

[ifitaintboeing]

Standard Stall Recovery:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webHSL02.pdf

Note that the following Safety Notice is for all GA pilots and all aeroplane instructors and examiners:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/130711_SafetyNotice_StallRecoveryTechniques.pdf

SRG2128 and Standards Document 19(A) state the types of stall to be expected in the PPL Skills Test:

Recognition and recovery from stalls. A stall in the clean configuration, as detailed below, and at least 2 other stalls from the following series of stalls will be required and the examiner will brief the sequence of these both pre-flight and in the air:

* Stall in clean configuration, fully developed stall entering from straight and level flight, with the throttle(s) closed. The Examiner will nominate when the recovery should begin.

* Approach to stall from an approach configuration, with approach flap setting, gear down and low power. The stall should be initiated from a turn (level or slightly descending with between 10 and 30° AOB) and the applicant must recover at the first symptom of the approaching stall.

* Approach to stall in the landing configuration with full flap, gear down, and low power. The stall should be initiated from straight flight as if established on final approach to land (i.e. not climbing); the applicant must recover at
the first symptom of the approaching stall.

* Approach to stall in a climbing turn with take-off flap and climb power (single-engine aeroplane only) the applicant must recover at the first symptom of the approaching stall.

All recoveries shall be made with the minimum loss of height and returning to a clean climb configuration at VY maintaining directional control.
(The examiner may nominate a heading to be achieved after recovery).


I know it's easy for us to say, but as examiners we really want you to succeed so most of all, relax and complete the exercise as you have been taught.

ifitaint...

[Bornfreee]

www.caa.co.uk/.../130711_SafetyNotice_StallRecoveryTechniques.p.

By Level Attitude.

The aim of a SSR is to recover from a stall/impending stall with minimum
height loss and, to achieve this, full power should be applied at the same
time (or only just slightly behind) the AoA being reduced by moving
the Stick forward.

Before we all go "off on one", I think we are kind of saying the same thing here. The safety notice above is clearly aimed at larger commercial aircraft.

I wholly agree with Level Attitude in that you release the back pressure first (reduce AoA) and almost simultaneously apply full power, if anything the full power application is fractions of a second later hence the common term used of simultaneously.

Anyway, we were supposed to be assisting Scotsonslad, not having a examiners 'standards' meeting here, we have our own thread for that! :)

[CLOUD999]

That is NOT Standard Stall Recovery for SEP Class aeroplanes (which requires minimum loss of height) - it is (almost, but not quite...) something which has dribbled down from the latest techniques taught to brain-dead airline pilots whose inadequate handling skills have required further instruction.
And further to your explanation to Bose-x regarding pod engines and the ensueing pitch couple when thrust is applied.
Speaking as a 'brain - dead airline pilot examiner' myself you are correct that the technique now trained to airline pilots is to reduce AOA ie reduce pitch until the aircraft is flying again and then apply thrust as required.

The aft trimmed position of stabiliser along with a full thrust pitch moment at high AOA can make stall recovery impossible even with the yoke fully forward, at least until nose down trim is applied. Stab trim itself requires careful use in upset conditions in order not aggravate situations.

Upset recoveries always require the aircraft to be unstalled first, this technique caters for this. Any further upset recovery actions would depend on whether nose hi or low, AOB, IAS lo or high? Increasing or decreasing? oh and lets not forget stab trim position.

Momentum has a huge influence and the flight envelope can be exited very quickly if correct recoveries are not applied.

Oh and lets not forget that various types have there own specific techniques and issues ( airbus control laws, lack of feedback, knowledge of stability in phase of flight eg neutral / positive?)

Beagle you also mention that " pig -ignorant people-tube drones" have been taught that AoA is of paramount importance" I think you are maybe refering to airline pilots again here ?:=

In any case in all my experience being instructed, instructing and examining whether civil, military, SEP or ME - AoA has indeed always been paramount. The laws of flight never really changed:=

Aircraft will always stall if the AoA is too high and will always fly again once the AoA is reduced -simple

I can understand why the PPL student who posted originally is so confused and worried about stall recoveries - examiners and instructors here seem unable to agree on when to recover and how!!:ugh:

Anyway I hope the input of this "brain dead airline pilot" ( probably a good description in my case :}) helps

[Gertrude the Wombat]

However, this is NOT true of a typical SEP aeroplane, in which there should never be a reason to trim to less than the gliding speed
I was taught fully aft trim just before landing in a Super Cub - that instructor apparently trusted me not to stall more than he trusted me not to dig the floats in.

[Pace]

That is NOT Standard Stall Recovery for SEP Class aeroplanes (which requires minimum loss of height) - it is (almost, but not quite...) something which has dribbled down from the latest techniques taught to brain-dead airline pilots whose inadequate handling skills have required further instruction

Beagle

Stall recovery with minimal height loss in any aircraft requires a reduction in the AOA.
Try your technique in a Citation and I guarantee you will loose 1000 feet in the recovery as I have tried it.
Power out with thrust (which will automatically reduce AOA ) will result in minimal height loss and is without doubt the better method in a Citation not brain dead airline pilots.
Stall recovery is type specific on a straight winged Citation the engines are high up on the tail! Thrust application wings level holding altitude will result in a reduction of AOA so we ATPLs are not quite as brain dead as you imagine

Pace

[BEagle]

Beagle you also mention that " pig -ignorant people-tube drones" have been taught that AoA is of paramount importance" I think you are maybe refering to airline pilots again here ?

Not all. Just those whose poor handling skills allow their aircraft to achieve an AoA well outside that required for normal operation and who subsequently prove that they've either forgotten the basic aerodynamics of stalling, or were never taught correctly in the first place.

Power out with thrust (which will automatically reduce AOA ) will result in minimal height loss and is without doubt the better method in a Citation...

Oh really?

Anyway, Scotsonslad, the best advice you've been given on this thread is that posted by ifitaintboeing....

[AdamFrisch]

I just did the my two year Bi-Annual Flight Review in my twin and what was new this time was that one had to demonstrate a G-stall in FAA-land. That wasn't the case last time in the PTS. So after the steep turns were done, we did another one where we pulled until she buffeted and stalled. It was a little more dramatic, but the recovery is the same.

Don't know if it's part of the EASA syllabus yet, but you can bet it will be as anything you can shake a stick at under the guise of it being "safer", they will adopt.

[Cows getting bigger]

Hmmmm, a semi-brain dead GA examiner here.

I will fail a candidate who applies power before the centrally forward bit.

I will probably pass an individual who is slightly slow on applying power after reducing AOA.

If I perceive that both are being applied together, I will ask the candidate a couple of probing questions about stalls in order to ensure they know what they are doing and the recovery we have just experienced wasn't down to luck.

[Pace]

Oh really?

Beagle

Absolutely! You will get a large altitude loss with the Citation if you attempt to recover as you would in a light twin or single.
In that aircraft its power out.
But yes a conventional recovery in the majority of piston singles and twins!
Just a point of interest what singles pitch down initially on power application? I was told the lake Amphibian does?

Pace

[englishal]

The aft trimmed position of stabiliser along with a full thrust pitch moment at high AOA can make stall recovery impossible even with the yoke fully forward, at least until nose down trim is applied
This almost happened at Bournemouth when a 737 had the autothrottles go to idle at the top of the approach and the crew didn't notice (as per an Turkish Airlines Amsterdam one). Luckily the crew did notice as the speed decayed through 100 kts (as the AP was trying to hold the glide slope) and they went full power. Trouble was the aeroplane pitched up to over 45 degrees and started rolling 30-40 degrees each side and they *almost* lost it......Scary stuff!

In the Citation, I was taught lower nose to horizon (no lower than) and simultaneously go to Take Off power. Actually one thing I like about the FAA is that they do their stalls to fully developed. I remember stalling the Seneca II at take off power (power on stall). I think we must have had an attitude of about 40 degrees nose up before it stalled!

[foxmoth]

Interesting to see debate going on between examiners! Looking at the CAA docs I would go with Beagle apart from one minor point, Beagle says :-
1. Full power and control column centrally forward UNTIL a pitch attitude is reached at which the stall warning ceases; don't pitch further and ensure you maintain slip indication central at all times.

Personally I would describe it as CC centrally forward and apply full power, this can be simultaneous (as said in the CAA leaflet), but putting it this way round is not only in agreement with the Authorities, but gets the student thinking in the right way that it is CC forward that recovers the stall, not the power.
Bose, if I did a test with you and failed on the stalling I would be showing you the CAA docs and asking you to show me where it says otherwise - how can you examine to a different technique than the CAA recommended one???
Also of course the rider that recommended technique for any particular aircraft should be followed.

[S-Works]

I am not examining to a different standard. I am examining to the standards set. Those are to reduce the AoA and apply power. Sticking the power on and trying to drive out is incorrect.

At my FE renewal in December it was specifically discussed that they want to see the AoA reduced before power is applied. The delay between the reduction in AoA and application if power is at Examiners discretion. But in average spam can the action of reducing AoA and the stall Warner stopping and applying power is a second or so.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, the OP does not mention which aircraft he is flying, although I seem to have heard PA28 or C172 mentioned. If he was flying the PA38 Tomahawk
then most stalls usually result in the left wing dropping into a spin, which obviously requires the spin correction technique.

In comparison a C152 can be held continuously in a mushing stall, as long as you use ample rudder to pin the nose on a distant landmark. This results in a continuous loss of height of about 200fpm, which is much the same as the power off glide. and no stall pitch forward occurs.

[Crash one]

I cannot get my head round the amount of Examiner/Insructor mumbo jumbo gibberish that is often spoke on here concerning a simple basic flight maneuver, or non flight to be precise. Every one is saying basicly the same thing (Reduce AoA & increase AS).
Why the poor student can't be taught WHY & HOW the a/c flies until they ACTUALLY understand the basic principle I really don't know.
Blabbering on about technique of recovery only confuses the issue & makes it sound to the un-initiated like wichcraft.
Fra start. It is bloody difficult to apply power in a glider, yet they recover very well. The 172 I was revalidated in last week does a soggy mush full back yoke & is difficult to tell if it's stalled or not. My Emeraude drops the nose very positively along with a wing of it's own choosing. Definately cannot be mistaken.
More understanding is required first, after that, recovery tecnique is MOSTLY obvious, certainly in a SEP.
Someone mentioned podded jets pitching up. To me, perfectly obviously they will, Overhead engined (Teal/PBY) things will pitch down for the same reason. Why does such basic obvious crap need explained? That should be covered at basic first day training.

[Pace]

Crash One

Yes you are correct and the Glider is a good example of how power can be misleading in stall recovery.
Any aircraft will recover From a stall including the jet I fly by pitch alone and tapping into potential energy inherent in the airframe.
We are looking at 2 angles ! Reducing the AOA and gaining back a flow of air over the wings so they fly again and doing that with as little altitude loss as possible.
I brought in that recovery can be type specific! Some will pitch up with power application requiring more counter pitch down by the pilot while others will pitch down with power application requiring less
But point taken :ok:

Pace

[b.a. Baracus]

In the exam be sure not to forget the HASELL check. This will normally result in a fail of that section. I know of a couple of people who have made this mistake and it's a real shame.

Also during the stall exercises make sure your lookout is maintained.

[foxmoth]

Bose, if that is correct then the CAA should be issuing new guidelines, and this should have been done BEFORE changing what you examine to, how can they advise applying power simultaneously with forward controls then advise Examiners to fail people who then follow this. I agree trying to "drive"out is wrong, but IMHO the difference is obvious when the pitch down is made.
N.B. Still think power at the same time SHOULD be the correct way for SSR in SEP, not accepting big aircraft techniques where they are not needed.
And Crash, yes, gliders DO recover OK without power, so do powered, but minimum height loss is achieved with power and this is where the appropriate technique for type comes in.

Phiggs - never heard such twaddle, there is a difference between "wing drop" and "wing drop into a spin" if that is happening you are definitely doing something wrong!!

[Crash one]

And Crash, yes, gliders DO recover OK without power, so do powered, but minimum height loss is achieved with power and this is where the appropriate technique for type comes in.


I agree min height loss is a good thing & is now taught in gliders I believe, quick forward check to unstall with as little as pos nose down to increase speed.
At some point different type tecnique may be required. But this is something that will be learned later. The OP is looking for help for a Skill Test. These are not (normally) carried out on Tornados with the wings swept back. They are done in pretty much benign training a/c that the testee is familiar with. Frinstance can you tell me the difference in stall recovery tecnique between a C152 a C172 a PA28 & any other popular basic training a/c? (today) not Chipmunks, Tiger Moths, Avro504, Stearman & such. Though I think you could prob include all those.

[Pace]

Going back to the original poster who is uncomfortable with stalling I still think this can be a result of the modern cautious approach.
Recover at incipient is the flavor of the day and I too prefer the FAA system where fully developed stalls are experienced.
We have had many debates on the spin or not spin and all this does is to leave a doubt in the student pilots mind of what if!
What if I do a stall on my own and get it wrong! I get a massive wing drop or worse. I do not know what to do because I have never been there and am uncomfortable with the unknown.
"If you do not push the boundaries you never find what lies beyond"
My advice is to take time on an aerobatic machine and spend some time really chucking the aircraft about.

Pace

[Johnm]

As far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings and the goal is a comfortable trip from A to B. I hate g forces and would always seek to avoid them. The closest I get to "throwing an aircraft about" is recovery from unusual attitude on my IR renewal and I hate that like poison.

The secret of comfort in stalls is to keep the aircraft in balance with the ball in the middle. Few training aircraft or tourers will misbehave in that configuration up to and including a fully developed stall. Our Trinidad for example will just mush down at 1000 ft a minute fully stalled in balance.

So if nervous about stalls just keep the thing in balance and all should be well.

Should have added, the advice on recovery I agree with, keep the thing in balance, stick or yoke forward until it starts flying again, typically a slight nose down attitude, and then apply power and get back to straight and level then cruise. There'll only be a second or two between moving the yoke and moving the throttle and confident firm manoeuvres help.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi Foxmouth, throughout my PPL training in Tomahawks we practiced SSA, and in every occasion the plane would drop its left wing by 90degrees in less than 0.5 second, and then continue into a spin. The only correction for that was to apply opposite rudder and wait for the spin to stop.

On just one occasion the right wing dropped, and we were over vertical for a second or so before my instructor took over with a 3g long pull out. I was certainly not ready for that, as I had my right foot ready for the left wing drop.

If the OP is flying Tomahawks, I can see what is worrying him.
In all other aircraft and gliders I have been able to have a straight ahead, spin free stall, maybe it is something to do with my own C of G. in the Tommy.

[Johnm]

They don't call them Traumahawks for nothing, dreadful blinking things even worse than a Cessna 15x:uhoh:

[Pace]

We all want smooth trouble free flights but with anyone who posts here a fear its usually a lack of confidence and the unknown.
The only solid way out of that is to face those fears and to get the confidence that you can handle anything the aircraft can throw at you otherwise you are merely masking and avoiding.
There is nothing wrong with masking and avoiding but true stalls occur when you are stressed, distracted and will take you by surprise and its then that the masking and avoiding falls apart!
I was lucky in having an old school examiner! We would take a twin up to 10K and really put it through every stall scenario possible and I was glad he was that type.

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

as I had my right foot ready for the left wing drop
I had an instructor do that to me once.

Incipient spin recovery in a 152. Normally they go to the left ... once I was surprised when it went to the right. Which the instructor admitted having done on purpose, because I had to cope with either, in case it ever happened for real.

[foxmoth]

Phiggs, either you were not keeping the ball in the middle or the aircraft was badly rigged, I have extensive time flying and instructing on Pa38, yes it would drop a wing, but this was always easily containable with rudder (preventing FURTHER wing drop, not picking the wing up with rudder), and I have never had one actually go into a spin from that unless it was what I intended!

[Crash one]

As far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings and the goal is a comfortable trip from A to B. I hate g forces and would always seek to avoid them. The closest I get to "throwing an aircraft about" is recovery from unusual attitude on my IR renewal and I hate that like poison.


I'm sorry but this is an awful attitude to fly with. There must be a constant thought " what if I stall this thing, God help us," "Must keep the speed absolutely cock on or we are stuffed" " Help, the nose went up a bit in that gust". How on earth can you relax & enjoy flying like that?
I'm not suggesting "throwing it about" just get comfortable in 3 dimensions when it does go titsup.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

As far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings and the goal is a comfortable trip from A to B. I hate g forces and would always seek to avoid them. The closest I get to "throwing an aircraft about" is recovery from unusual attitude on my IR renewal and I hate that like poison.


Crikey, what an attitude! Why not just buy a ticket from BA and let someone else do the flying while you enjoy a G&T down the back?

I take the opposite view; instead of living in fear of some unknown googly your aeroplane might bowl you, do a course of aerobatics and lay the ghost! Once you can fly, with confidence, the entire envelope the aerolplane can do and some things it can't do, nothing handling-wise will fase you. It also teaches you to fly by feel and looking outside rather that becoming a panel-watcher; you learn to listen to what the aeroplane is telling you through your hands and feet, flying it like a competant musician plays an instrument.

Or you can just be an aeroplane driver and do it by numbers. But why would anyone want to do that?

[Johnm]

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings and the goal is a comfortable trip from A to B. I hate g forces and would always seek to avoid them. The closest I get to "throwing an aircraft about" is recovery from unusual attitude on my IR renewal and I hate that like poison.
Crikey, what an attitude! Why not just buy a ticket from BA and let someone else do the flying while you enjoy a G&T down the back?

I take the opposite view; instead of living in fear of some unknown googly your aeroplane might bowl you, do a course of aerobatics and lay the ghost! Once you can fly, with confidence, the entire envelope the aerolplane can do and some things it can't do, nothing handling-wise will fase you. It also teaches you to fly by feel and looking outside rather that becoming a panel-watcher; you learn to listen to what the aeroplane is telling you through your hands and feet, flying it like a competant musician plays an instrument.

Or you can just be an aeroplane driver and do it by numbers. But why would anyone want to do that?


I get a great deal of satisfaction out of doing it by numbers and watching the panel which is why I could cope when autopilot went t1ts up in solid IMC. I have flown aerobatics and hate them with a deep and meaningful hatred. My goal is to go where I want when I want which public transport can't do for me but a light aeroplane mostly can.

There's a great deal of satisfaction in operating an aircraft and its systems down to ILS minima and seeing runway lights emerge from the gloom exactly where they are supposed to be.

Just because I don't like unusual attitudes doesn't mean I can't handle them, but I certainly wouldn't seek them out!

[Crash one]

As you wish, your choice.
I get my satisfaction flying the thing manually, enjoying the view & finding waypoints etc come up where & when I expect them.
Watching a computer do the job is not for me.
What this has to do with the stall, I fail to see.

[Johnm]

The point about the stall is twofold.

First learning to throw an aeroplane about the sky is not a good way to build confidence in people who find the G forces and strange attitudes deeply unsettling.

Secondly, in the context of the original posters question, the point is how to avoid them in the first place (see the warnings, keep the aircraft in balance etc.....) and how to recover with confidence should you somehow end up in one ( lower nose, add power, level wings etc...)

Personally I've flown in solid IMC in seriously rough weather and never been anywhere near a stall despite some "interesting" behaviour from the VSI. That's because the aircraft was in cruise attitude, in trim and I wasn't daft enough to try to hold altitude.

[Pace]

John

You say you have flown aerobatics so even if you hate them
With a vengeance you know what to expect?
I see a comparison with learning to drive a car where you are taught to avoid ever getting into a skid but are uncomfortable in an out of shape car which might be over steering ,under steering ,sliding or a mixture of all three!
The comfortable driver/racing driver can play those conditions with confidence!balancing the throttle and steering with the car going at 100mph sideways.

Mr avoid comes along but is petrified of loosing the car and what it may do!
The day Mr avoid does loose it he sails into a brick wall frozen at the controls
A skid pan is money well spent for the learner driver does not mean he has to take up motor racing if you get the gist?

In aviation an aerobatic machine replaces the skid pan and with a suitable instructor allows the student to explore and understand and become comfortable with all that scares him the unknown.

Pace

[foxmoth]

Pace,

You have to realise you are not talking to a "pilot" in the sense that you (or I) might think of, you are talking to an Aeroplane driver, and trying to talk him round to your way is just not going to happen. If he is happy with his "flying" then best to leave him to it.:ok:

[S-Works]

In aviation an aerobatic machine replaces the skid pan and with a suitable instructor allows the student to explore and understand and become comfortable with all that scares him the unknown.

What a great analogy!! I think I shall borrow that one!

[Johnm]

Quote:



In aviation an aerobatic machine replaces the skid pan and with a suitable instructor allows the student to explore and understand and become comfortable with all that scares him the unknown.

What a great analogy!! I think I shall borrow that one!

Ironically I'm quite happy in a car going sideways, though not at a 100 mph, 40 to 50 is OK :-) I think it must be the difference between two and three dimensions I don't like, I get vertigo on tall buildings too :-)

[Pace]

John

I am sure you are an excellent pilot and have although not liking G and the sensation of a falling aircraft (which many do not) still put yourself through those manouvers in your aerobatic experience.
Here we are talking about a poster who is scared of stalls which is fear of the unknown.
In his case he would be best going up with a considerate aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic machine where he can be shown what does happen and experience it himself until he is more confident.
The whole thing being demonstrated kindly and as a fun thing in safety rather than a gut wrenching intense demonstration.
Otherwise that fear of the unknown will always be there throughout his flying in later years.
As for driving I used to be a formula Ford, Formula 3, Clubmans driver in my early twenties until I lost my sponsorship and took up flying instead.
I dont mind mild aerobatics but do not go out of my way to do them or like you do not relish Hi G ;) Mild G ok or hi in short shots but I am not an aerobatic pilot :ok:

[Rocket2]

"I get vertigo on tall buildings too" - so do most pilots, nothing to do with flying, just the brain is confused because your connected to the ground. Thread drift off :cool:

[Pace]

I have a friend who was an RAF lightning pilot and now a BA heavy Captain who could not peer over tall buildings without getting vertigo!
It's easy to walk a plank sitting on the ground but have a 1000 foot drop below the plank and try it ; )

Pace

[Armchairflyer]

The aerobatics instructor who led me through a spin/UA session in a Citabria admitted getting sick after riding on a swinging inverter ship with his daughter.

BTW, the disparagement of someone who openly states to use an airplane to have a comfortable trip from A to B without any need for intentional stalls, unusual attitudes or g forces is beyond my comprehension.

[Johnm]

You really don't need an aerobatic experience to deal with stalls, I've successfully stalled and recovered in the following:

Pa28
C172
C182
PA32R
TB20

If you keep the thing in balance it's not particularly scary or uncomfortable, but is clear that the aeroplane is in an undesirable attitude and that action is needed.

The action is straight forward. Firmly and smoothly lower the nose a bit, add power (full power with PA28 or C172, but perhaps cruise power with bigger beasties) and finally level the wings.

A little bit of practice will ensure you can do it easily enough.

Unusual attitudes is more difficult especially under hood or foggles.

First get a clear picture of what's happening, that's usually steep climbing turn with no power, or spiral dive with lots of power.

Add or subtract power as appropriate, gently raise or lower the nose to stop the altimeter whizzing round and then level the wings. Finally beat the examiner around the head with sticks for abusing your aeroplane:E

[foxmoth]

Add or subtract power as appropriate, gently raise or lower the nose to stop the altimeter whizzing round and then level the wings. Finally beat the examiner around the head with sticks for abusing your aeroplane

Do it that way and it is the instructor that will be beating YOU round the head - if you have any wings left on that is! Power, ROLL to wings level, then pitch :ugh:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

You really don't need an aerobatic experience to deal with stalls

No one has said that you do.

[Johnm]

Quote:



Add or subtract power as appropriate, gently raise or lower the nose to stop the altimeter whizzing round and then level the wings. Finally beat the examiner around the head with sticks for abusing your aeroplane

Do it that way and it is the instructor that will be beating YOU round the head - if you have any wings left on that is! Power, ROLL to wings level, then pitch

:mad::ugh: You are right of course! Silly me....better go out and do some practice... and a few holds and an RNAV and an ILS or two :\

[Cows getting bigger]

Do it that way and it is the instructor that will be beating YOU round the head - if you have any wings left on that is! Power, ROLL to wings level, then pitch

Oh, have a sense of humour. I would have let it happen and then chuckled as we discussed IMC recovery from the scenario just created (assuming the wings are still there) . :)

[foxmoth]

Which is fine until someone else follows that technique! :rolleyes::eek: