Are YOU one of those.........

[Geoffersincornwall]

....... who subscribe to the philosophy that as long as you have filed an IFR flight plan then it is legitimate to record the flight under the 'IFR' column of your logbook even though the flight was conducted entirely in VMC?

A few years back I worked with a guy who had not only an IR but had a CFII rating and had NEVER seen the inside of a cloud.

WIHIH ??

From what I can see there are too many folk working under the delusion that they are competent IFR pilots.

What to do about it?

G. :{

[bigglesbutler]

Put them in our 225 sim, and do a full OPC/LPC, that should bring them down to earth with a bump XD.

Si

[check]

Hi Geoff,

My logbook had a column for instrument flying, that's all that went in there. My IFR hours therefore were different to my instrument hours.

[HeliComparator]

Isn't the column in a logbook normally labelled IMC not IFR? Subtle difference!

Personally I tend to log only for flight by sole reference to instruments, although if you are half way round an instrument approach procedure and intermittently in sight of the ground / with adequate external visual reference, I just log the whole approach, otherwise you would need to be starting and stopping a stopwatch all the time to count only the time solely on instruments.

We certainly don't log just because its IFR, which most of N Sea en-route flying is.

[Thracian]

Well, the logbook column says "IFR" not "IMC". So if you fly under IFR, then you should be able to log IFR time because the according rules and procedures apply, whether in IMC or VMC. That's because you have an IFR-rating, not an IMC-rating. That's for the logbook. There may be other parties (local authorities, certain operators) being interested in IMC-times. And this might be a totally different story. Maybe you have to open up a new IMC-column in your logbook. Regards Thracian

[heloguy412]

You are only allowed to log those portions of the flight as either actual or simulated when in those conditions. Flying an instrument approach or filing IFR does not mean you are flying with sole reference to instruments. This would explain pilots with loads of hours "IFR" and their fear of the white puffys.

[HeliComparator]

Regardless of what the column heading in a commercially produced logbook says, the requirement in the UK (and I suspect Germany is the same) is to record "information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying"

Instrument flying means flying by reference to instruments, which is not the same as the flight rules. Probably commercial publishers' inability to understand the difference between IMC and IFR is at the root of this problem! Although similar mistakes occur in some RFM's I have come across!

[Garfs]

I have separate colums for IFR and IMC, the latter being actual Instrument time

If Ive flown all day in clear weather I log IFR still but zero IMC. If any of it is in actual IMC i.log IMC

Ie if 1 hour out of 4 for the day is spent in cloud I log 4IFR and 1 IMC

[Hughes500]

Might be IFR in a cloud but are you actually flying the aircraft or is the auto pilot ?

[HeliComparator]

Hughes, the aircraft is being operated in its normal mode with an autopilot engaged. As far as I am aware there are no helicopters certified for IMC that don't have an autopilot of some sort. But you still have to interpret the instruments in order to monitor the autopilot and retain situational awareness, and that is the key, not the ability to pole the aircraft which hopefully you can do in VMC!

[HeliComparator]

Garfs, nothing wrong with that but there is no legislative requirement to log IFR.

[ShyTorque]

In UK you can fly under IFR in Class G any time you like with no written flight plan required. I do so fairly routinely if the weather precludes VMC and I do log pure IMC time, not that it matters much.

But flying under IFR in VMC in Class G is not the same as actual IMC and doesn't count towards anything, so what is the point of logging this psuedo "IFR" time? Is this done in the hope of befuddling a future employer into seeing a more "experienced" pilot? :hmm:

[Hughes500]

Helicom

Seem to remember flying in the mil in a 341 with no auto pilot very definitely in IMC. My comment in the last post was supposed to be very tongue in cheek;)

[HeliComparator]

Hughes, yes maybe I should have said "civil certified"!

Yes I could feel your tongue in my cheek. Could be worse, when we are rotors running on deck offshore and I need to go down below for a pee, I still continue to log P1 flight time! However, after the first few thousand hours it probably doesn't make any real difference.

[Garfs]

Garfs, nothing wrong with that but there is no legislative requirement to log IFR.

Thanks for the heads up :)

Nice weather (on the ground at least) in ABZ today. No need for any instrument flying (unless it was different offshore) :ok:

[MartinCh]

no requirement to log 'IFR flight plan time', but in reality, if fiddling with the regs, European IRI aka Yurop's CFII rating/certificate does require 'instrumetn flight RULES time' I leave the exact section to those who fancy digging the regs right this moment. I find it ridiculous, in terms of ambiguity, and people mentioned here that UK CAA accepted experience at certain ratio reduction.

Do I have IR? Well, fixed wing one so far anyway. Did I log simulated or actual instrument time? Yes. Did I log VMC flight on IFR flight plan for ATC practice etc, as for the European IRI requirements? Nah.

Did I see 'inside of the white bits'? Yes. Would I do so in R22/44? Nah.
Does my past training help me make it through IIMC in light heli? YES.

[nightsta1ker]

You have no business logging Instrument time unless it's actual or simulated. Either you are in a cloud, or you are wearing a view limiting device. Simple as that. If you are on an IFR flight plan in VFR conditions and not using a view limiting device with a Safety Pilot on board to look out for VFR traffic (remember that when VFR the pilot is ALWAYS responsible for seeing and avoiding other traffic) then you are technically flying VFR and can't log any of it unless at some point you go actual. For purposes of currency, you need to have been actual or have flown your approaches under a view limiting device (at least in the US).

If you could see outside, you can't log it! Simple as that!