Demand for pilots . Future prospects?

[AnotherWannabe]

Hello all,

I've been lurking PPRUNE for a while now but I joined a week ago to be able to ask some questions.

As my username suggests, I would like to be a pilot. An airline pilot preferably.

I'm 18, and just finishing my A levels at school. I've received an email from CTC last week that the easyJet MPL programme is open for applications so I thought I'll give it a go.
But then I read some discussions on here concerning the Terms and Conditions that CTC and easy offer and also read about the massive amount of debt that the programme leaves its students with.

I've also applied to university this year and if I make the grades, I'll hopefully go to Queen Mary University in London.
My question is, will the job prospects of CTC graduates (and MPL students) improve any time soon?

I'm asking that because I have two options. To go to uni or, if successful with my application, do the MPL programme.

Which one would be better to do ? If I go to university, I'll have £27k+ of debt but good job prospects (IT industry).
This would however leave me with a very tiny chance of ever being able to afford a CTC/OAA integrated course.

If I do the MPL (given that my application is successful) I will have a pile of 'debt' but kind of guaranteed a job for at least 6 months (then go from there somehow) and also a job that I would enjoy. However, I wouldn't have a degree and I could no longer afford a degree as a backup plan in case easyJet drops the course or whatever happens.

At first the university option seems the obvious choice but the finance part screws everything up. It's either this or that.
If I do a degree, get a job (if I can) then save up for an integrated course (or even a modular) I'll be too old to start flying commercially. If I finish my degree at 22, work for 15 years to save up I'll be 37 when I can finally afford a course. That seems too old to get started, or not ?

I could also start uni, complete the first year, apply for next year's BA FPP or eJ MPL, defer two years at uni and complete one of the courses.
I'm just not sure if the already massive supply of pilots will be even bigger by then. Will there be any shortages any time soon which will get rid of a good chunk of hold pool residents (in the UK) ?

I would really appreciate some helpful answers, and yes I know modular is better than integrated...(or is it, nowadays...).

[Contact Approach]

Firstly, it's not 100k. Secondly, It's not a 6 month contract.

[Richard Phillips]

Go to uni, get a good job with the IT industry and go modular. Uni is about the life experience too, meeting new people etc.

Lets say the B787/A350 have a service life of 20+ years.. plenty of time yet to finance modular through any future job..

Trying to service an 80-100k loan when you are 20 on the other hand, will be pretty hard going.

[Sky_Hussar]

FWIW, I am also in training and struggling to make ends meet. The financial burden that comes with becoming a pilot is huge. I had good career prospects in hotel management, but decided to pursue a dream that has been with me since I was a child. I often wonder if I'd made the right choice (I started training 'late', I'm 28 now and on my way to my CPL), but then again, I can't see myself doing anything else for work but flying. I know I would rather regret trying than not trying.

If you want security, go for the Uni and IT job. If you get a 9 to 5 Monday to Friday IT job, you'll probably be looking out the window of your office wishing you'd become a pilot.
If flying is really what your heart desires, than that is what you should do. Even though the odds are against you, with determination, you will succeed.

Best of luck whatever you do!

[M1ghtyDuck]

Student debt is not the same as ordinary debt. In almost every way that matters, it doesn't exist:

1) It doesn't come up on a credit search so doesn't affect your ability to get any other loans or credit.

2) The debt doesn't get any bigger like normal debt does, being tied to inflation it (pretty much) stays the same value year on year. No 17.9% APR for students!

3) It doesn't require paying back AT ALL until you're working, and even then not within a year of graduating, and even then only as a pretty small amount off the top of your salary.

4) And finally they can never come round and repossesses your house or things you own to settle your debt. (In fact, leave it long enough and it gets wiped out.)

Think of it not as debt but as a graduate tax that eventually even goes away. It is not at all like having a commercial loan. In fact, if you had £27k student debt, and £27k cash, you would be a fool to pay it off (unlike normal debt which you would pay as soon as you can). Stick it in a savings account and make more money off it than the student loans interest is. You will never, never be able to borrow money at such a fantastic rate and with such incredible terms (for you) again in your life.

I just wanted to clear that up, in case it affects your decision of going to uni or not. If you can afford OAA/CTC now, you can afford it after uni, but you'd also have a degree to fall back on (and university is a lot of fun).

[fulminn]

go to the uni go to work and go modular..and then you will slam your head on the wall because today the low hours are very young,(19-25) not 30-34..sometimes 40!!
Guys, we knows...experience commensurate with age....that means if you have 2 candidates, same licenses, same skill, most of the times the company obviously will opt for the young one...
For the guy who opened the Thread: go now, if you can afford the money do it now, if you want to be a pilot, start now to realize your dream, don't wait....
ok the market is closed but you have your youngness in your part.

[fulminn]

do you work with wilderness air?:cool:
You have a job man!

[AnotherWannabe]

I just wanted to clear that up, in case it affects your decision of going to uni or not. If you can afford OAA/CTC now, you can afford it after uni, but you'd also have a degree to fall back on (and university is a lot of fun).

Thank you but we got told all that like 5 times already..
If I did a degree AND If I got through the MPL course and landed a job at easyJet and let's say my "pay" would equate to £21k+ a year (which it probably wouldn't) I would have to pay my student loan AND the loan for the training costs and such. If my pay would be below £21k a year, then I would only have to pay the loan for training costs. I wouldn't have to pay back anything for the university until my salary rises above £21 000. But it's still something to worry about in the future.

I'm afraid if I go to uni there will be even more unemployed pilots by the time I come out and start training. I'll have an even lower chance of securing a pilot job, let alone an airline pilot job.

Firstly, it's not 100k.
If by that you mean it costs more, you are correct.
Bond: £69000 (which does eventually get paid back over a period of around 6 years however during this time you can't leave the MPL company if you want to see that 69k back. I believe that if you are fired or dropped you will not receive the remaining value of the bond.)
MPL Training: £18670 + £11940
Living costs estimated: £5000
+ Insurance, Medical etc...
+ Don't know if type rating is included
TOTAL = £104,610+

Please correct me if I'm wrong.


EDIT: Type Rating is included.

[Richard Phillips]

As with everything; there is no right answer, just choice between which path has less risk..

I know which i'd choose

[fulminn]

of course, you need to be the right man in the right place at the right time!! but you will never know, if you don'try!! but don't try to later!

[cgwhitemonk11]

Apply for the MPL and if you don't get it apply for BA. You can do both, I'm 24 and working as a pilot on a turbo-prop aircraft. The graft is very hard to get where you wanna go and long days spent wondering if you made the right choice, but now i get paid to fly, and actually fly a cool plane in a nice part of the world. I've got about 10K in loans to repay over the next 3 years and am just about managing to repay them on my 20K salary, but thats fine i'll be in a bigger airline and making double that by the time its paid.

Next year I'm going to do an Engineering degree through the OU online, it will take 6 years and cost 15K but the way i look at it I will be 31 and hopefully have my flight training re-paid, i'll have a degree and i should be well up the airline ladder in terms of experience and I should have no problem paying the last bit off...

Then when I'm about 35 i can get a mortgage and pay that off for the rest of my life...... :}

But **** it sure what else would ya be doin! :)

[AnotherWannabe]

and actually fly a cool plane in a nice part of the world

What plane do you fly and where ?
Also, PM sent.

[WhyByFlier]

If by that you mean it costs more, you are correct.
Bond: £69000 (which does eventually get paid back over a period of around 6 years however during this time you can't leave the MPL company if you want to see that 69k back. I believe that if you are fired or dropped you will not receive the remaining value of the bond.)
MPL Training: £18670 + £11940
Living costs estimated: £5000
+ Insurance, Medical etc...
+ Don't know if type rating is included
TOTAL = £104,610+

Please correct me if I'm wrong.


You're wrong - you've missed out on the massive interest repayments.

Let's say you do a standard integrated course at CTC - this costs £73,400

Costs and Bookings - CTC Aviation (http://www.ctcaviation.com/individual_pilots/ctc_takeoff/costs_and_bookings)

Where it says:

Additional costs (where applicable): Aircraft hire for tests CAA test and examination fees CAA Licence and Ratings issue fees Accommodation and transport to Crew Training Centres Flying in addition to the course syllabus


Means you can add on about:

£250 per month for food
£100 per month for petrol
£50 per month for car insurance
£20 for a mobile/ comms costs

£4000 a year for accommodation
£2000 for CAA exam costs and licence issues
8 hours ME piston hire for tests (170A times 2, CPL and IR) - I'm being conservative when I say £3000

Make sure you pass them all first time - all 14 ATPLs, PT1, PT2 with there pre tests, 170A for CPL, CPL, 170A for IR and the IR.;)
Buying a car in NZ - 1500 NZD so maybe £800 (for an old banger)
A :mad: fund for extra flights because you WILL cock up some things - have £2000 just in case.


On an 18 month course that'll be:

£4500 for food
£1800 for petrol
£900 for car insurance
£6000 for accommodation
£360 for comms
£2000 for CAA fees
£3000 for acft hire for tests
£2000 in case you cock something up.

Total before interest:

£94000

With interest over 7 years repayments + 18 month payment holiday on a 4% loan (you'll be lucky)

Gives:

94000 X 0.04 = £3760
3760 X 1.5 years (18 months of payment holiday where no payments are made during your training) = £5640

So now you have £99640 of debt to repay before interest in 7 years (84 months) should you be very lucky and gain employment immediately on qualifying.

Using this loan calculator and a 4% interest rate:

Loan Repayment Calculator (http://www.online-calculators.co.uk/interest/loanrepayment.php)

Over 84 months the total loan to be repaid is about £114400 requiring a repayment of £1360 EVERY month for 84 months.

Using the following salary calculator:

The Salary Calculator - Take-Home tax calculator (http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php)

You'll see you need to earn £20000 a year before tax to earn £1368 a month after tax.

Oh and by the way for the first 8 months on flexicrew with easyJet which I understand now costs £8000 approximate for a type rating you'll only earn £1200 a month ( no tr cost + sector pay with Mon - defo a better deal!) - £160 short of paying the loan. Then you'll need a place to live, a car, insurance, petrol, food, mobile, Internet etc.

If the loan is secured on your parent's home and they aren't financially comfortable it could all become quite upsetting and stressful.


All of this said - there are those that have done it and it invariably works through parents and banks being flexible - not the airlines.

I was fortunate enough to have the unsecured loan from HSBC through CTC and I can tell you it's an expensive drag!

Now for some happier info - the job is a pleasure. Someone has to do it. If you're not a quitter, you'll find a way.

Cue a certain poster (with a devilish name) with his pro-CTC, a yellow and purple airline has saved the day for 2% of graduates, war and peace like posts.:p

[flyinkiwi]

If you buy a car in NZ for NZ$1500 expect to pay about NZ$500 a year just to keep it on the road, and that does not include compliance and maintenance costs.

[AnotherWannabe]

With interest over 7 years repayments
4% interest rate

Where did you get these from ? Are they on the CTC site ?

I was thinking the BBVA option doesn't sound too bad. Although I've never heard of them .
Finance and Pilot Training costs | CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/europe/courses/cadet_programme/finance#4)

10 years max and 2.75% interest rate plus Bank of England base rate (currently 0.5 %). Although it does add some extra, one off charges, I don't know how other banks do it.

Still, I agree, that's a heck of a lot of money to bay back in 10 years.

[fulminn]

anyway, it's not mandatory for you to spend all these money to get a job.
I'm working in ryr, and I spent 54,7 k of pound for the flight training(modular,on diamond efis a/c all JAA(in italy),MCC,JOC on a mechtronix ascent xj reproducing 738 perf(fmc, pfd,nd etc) very close to the real one, and the whole Time building in USA, 130h pic(211 TT) on da40,182T,172SP... a lot of fun!:ok:
then 29k pound for TR and subsistence in EMA for 3 months.
total 84k pound.

[WhyByFlier]

And what was the interest on top?:ugh: If you were given the money or had earned it then you were one of the few.

4% interest rate was a realistic average and is what I'm paying. Is the 2.75% variable or fixed. If it's variable then be careful. The thought of being in to a Spanish Bank wouldn't be my choice.

[average-punter]

Have you ever thought about getting a job in the industry after your a-levels, it will allow you to gain a large amount of experience and knowledge that could be useful at interviews for cadet programs? Worked for me.

[AnotherWannabe]

Have you ever thought about getting a job in the industry after your a-levels, it will allow you to gain a large amount of experience and knowledge that could be useful at interviews for cadet programs? Worked for me.

You can't really get an enjoyable/good/well paying job straight after A levels.
But I agree that it is a possibility, to which I haven't given much thought yet.
How did it work for you? What are you doing at the moment ?