A320 Engine fire on take off training video question

[Turbavykas]

Hello,

I saw one from CBT. Captain put both throttles to TOGA after fire warning. At 400 checklist were performed engine secured. Is it usual practice? If that engine is still working like fuel leak on fire, oil leak, bleed air problem ect. selecting full power should make fire more intensive or maybe engine explosion?
I also assume A320 doesn't have engine fire memory item checklist.

[A4]

Rule 1 - FLY THE AIRCRAFT.

Selection of TOGA is SOP for some operators - yes you will be adding fuel to the fire - but the increased performance will get you to 400' AGL quicker to allow actioning of ECAM in a failure case - with fire the engine is still producing thrust so performance is less of an issue compared to EFATO.

Provided the aircraft is under control (Trimmed, AP in, HDG/EOSID established) it is permissible to commence ECAM <400' but only in exceptional circumstances - FIRE is a good example!

The fire is dealt with by ECAM, not from memory actions. It is a controlled and deliberate sequence requiring good crew cooperation - because you DON'T want to get it wrong!

A4

[sierra_sotiropoulos]

When taking off, any significant engine malfunction triggering a warning should be announced by the PNF without stating the engine number!

Only when the PF commands the PNF to read the ECAM, shall he specify which engine has the problem, and any action on that engine should only be performed after both pilots have confirmed that it is indeed the correct (malfunctioning) engine!
This procedure has been established to protect flight deck crews from shutting down the wrong engine in their panic.

Therefor, the pilot on that video responded correctly although in many cases the aircraft will be able to climb safely without selecting TOGA thrust.

[dolpinsky]

the following questions might be a bit "off-topic"...

i'm just wondering does the PNF need the command from PF before carrying out the procedures and checklists when facing abnormal situation?

For example engine failure at V1, can the PNF declare emergency and say mayday right away? or he has to just wait until the PF order?

[sierra_sotiropoulos]

The actions in case of emergency are thoroughly briefed before take off.
Usually the PNF handles communications but, after an engine failure at take off at 400 ft the PF assumes controls and communications and the PNF performs ECAM action.
The command at 400 ft by the PF is "I have controls and communications, ECAM actions!"

[OPEN DES]

What about just saying 'ECAM actions', this implies abnormal tasksharing as per FCOM/QRH. I.e. pf with the radios etc

No problems with people saying 'my radios' etc.. But 'my controls' seems a bit superfluous and a waste of breath..

A320 tre

[vilas]

Airbus has changed the call out. In abnormal situation when PF says" I have controls, it also means I have communications".

[A4]

Ozy,

It's not a prerequisite but are you trying to tell me that YOUR workload will be less if you continue to handfly? Once you have the aircraft "under control" i.e. trimmed, climbing at V2, why would you not want to let the AP take the strain? It will also increase your capacity to then manage the failure with your FO/Capt. Is it a macho thing? Must wrestle the stricken aircraft into the sky?

A4

[WhyByFlier]

Please could you provide an Airbus reference for that Vilas?

Thanks.

A4, she or he was being a pedant.

[BravoTango]

@WhyByFlier

QRH Gen.01

regards

[WhyByFlier]

Thank you BravoTango.

Am I being thick or is this not in any easyJet documents? It's defo not in our QRH.

[vilas]

WhyByFlyer
In the instructer briefing guide ECAM management it mentions "As he announces ECAM ACTIONS", the PF is in charge of communications, until all the ECAM actions have been completed. So you say " I have controls" and order ECAM ACTIONS. However I have experienced that some Airlines still follow old procedure.

[WhyByFlier]

A320 FCTM AO-020 P 6/18:

The use of the autopilot is STRONGLY recommended. Following an engine failure, the rudder should be trimmed out prior to autopilot engagement.
Once AP is engaged, the rudder trim is managed through the AP and, hence, manual rudder trim command, including reset, is inhibited.

I.e. put the AP in, we can all fly but it frees up capacity.

[WhyByFlier]

Putting in the AP allows the flying and nav side to be monitored, the decision making and threat and error management side to be considered as a crew and for briefings to take place. The AP can fly. Best use of equipment. The sim is the place to show the company your flying capacity in EFATOs.

There are many ways to fly and handle an Airbus!

[Ashling]

Something about a superior pilot uses their superior judgement to avoid etc etc springs to mind.

Oz, you have the requisite skill level to fly an EFATO minus the automatics, congrats. Now work on gaining the superior judgement.

[vilas]

No doubt any pilot should have the skill to manage EFATO without auto pilot. It is not a great skill in A320. Those who flew any non FBW airliner would know it. But you don't hone your skills in actual abnormal situation. It is like practicing raw data ILS in poor visbility. In abnormal situation you must use optimum automation. A survey of training in sim has revealed that with modernisation many regulatory manuevres are handled well by pilots, therefore they are now evolving EBT i.e. evidence based training where the routine exercises would be replaced with more contemporary mauevres.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Oz,

Have you read the Kegworth accident report?
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_502831.pdf

2.1.1.1 Fault diagnosis:
"The commander said that he gained from the engine instruments no clear indication of where the trouble lay. He had, however, disengaged the autopilot 8 seconds after the first compressor surge and most of his attention thereafter would probably have been on the handling of the aircraft and the flight instruments"

Why increase your workload at the expense of fault diagnosis?

[nitpicker330]

Yep we all should be able to fly the ship, but for gods sake let the AUTOPILOT do the work if its available. To do otherwise isn't just plain dumb it's negligent and wouldn't be viewed too positively by the accident investigators!!

I suppose during a incapacitation you'd still leave the A/P off too.

Wow a real hero. :ugh:

[Ashling]

Oz, I was being somewhat sarcastic in congratulating you on your flying skills, sorry if that was a touch unclear.

As I spent a good deal of my career hand flying without a flight director or auto pilot available I am very confident in my ability to hand fly if called upon to do so. While it may be worth a practise occasionally an EFATO is not the time to prove to one and all what a hot shot stick and rudder man you are. It's the time to free up capacity for you both to do your jobs, the penalties for getting the drills wrong are severe.

Being a good pilot is about so much more than the ability to hand fly (although that is essential), you'd do we'll to bear that in mind.

[JPJP]

Human Factors Hazardous Attitudes

I see two of five here:

1. Macho, and

2. Anti-authority.

[A4]

I think you've missed the point here Ozy. No one is denying that the maintenance of manual flying skills is highly prudent and any Professional pilot should indeed maintain those skills. What you seem to be advocating is that in a non-normal, high workload situation the PF should continue to hand fly the aircraft. That, I'm afraid, is cobblers.

I don't see how you can deny that your capacity will be increased if the AP is flying the aircraft. "Fault diagnosis can wait......" within reason - burning engine? THR LVRS/ENG MASTERS/FIRE PB's - do they not deserve/require your utmost attention as opposed to ensuring you're not exceeding the bank angle on the EOSID because you've elected to hand fly? Modern AP's do a very good job of flying the aircraft. Likewise, FMGC's with "pop-up" EOSIDS are designed to alleviate pilot workload - BUT IT IS INCUMBENT ON THE CREW UNDERSTANDING HOW TO USE IT!

If my family was in the back of your aircraft and you suffered an EFATO, I would expect you to utilise all the tools made available to you by the manufacturer to facilitate a safe and expeditious resolution to the issue. I would not expect you to load up your PNF in some ill conceived display of your well practiced manual flying skills. We practice skills for when we have to, not because we want to.

A4

[Ashling]

Oz

You could equally say that if you fail to exercise sound judgement your ability to hand fly counts for precisely f*#k all, as you so delicately put it.

It is comforting to know that I can hand fly if I have to but it's also comforting to know that all I have to do is trim the rudder and put the AP on and my capacity to monitor, manage and support my colleague and my crew has increased, those are all desirable things in an emergency.

You use the resources at hand to maximise the chances of a successfull outcome. Fair enough to consider and practise what to do if some of those resources are unavailable but that is a very different thing to deliberately ignoring them in the real case which would be rather foolish.

I also,suspect in the real case ( and in the sim if not previously agreed by your trainer) that a company would take a dim view of a decision not to use the AP if it was available to you.

[Peter G-W]

Would I be alone in thinking that Oz is one of those who spends his spare
time practicing for Shrove Tuesday?

[FoxForce44]

Topguns....such a shame that modern aviation still have space for Macho's...

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Oz,
Besides, any competent pilot should have sufficient capacity to cope. Haven't you?
We had to hand fly 707s because the AP couldn't cope, but look at the number of accidents caused by Pilot reduced SA - and we had 3 crew then.

Are you ambidextrous whilst practicing for Shrove Tuesday?

[A4]

Ok, this will be my last input in this thread. I think it's has been interesting and beneficial. Basically, I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet more or less. Some of the points that Ozy makes are valid - if we're sitting up front we should be able to hand fly the aircraft to the required standard. In the majority of cases regarding EFATO, then the automatics should be available and it would unquestionably reduce the PF's and the PNF's workload.

With a push on TEM (Threat and Error Management for those unfamiliar) use of automatics, where appropriate, is encouraged to facilitate Crew coop and workload management. Non-use of automatics, when fully available, resulting in incident/accident may well leave the CM1 in a difficult position careerwise or even legally......:\

Fly safe everyone.

Out.

A4

[Uplinker]

Must wrestle the stricken aircraft into the sky?

Not any more. This is a hang-over from decades ago in aviation when aircraft had to be hand flown in critical phases because automatics were; a) in their infancy, b) not very good, and, c) not very reliable. In addition, controls were not all hydraulically powered and were manually trimmed, so a large degree of manual flying skill, (and dare one say 'macho' attitude) was necessary.

Nowadays, thanks to years of research and development, modern automatics are extremely good and reliable. Even when manually flown, the airframes are much easier to fly, and an EFATO on an Airbus simply requires; Keep it straight with rudder, (then hold the rudder there); Rotate to +10 degrees, (then leave the pitch alone); Trim the rudder; Engage autopilot; Deal with the emergency; Land the aircraft.

If both autopilots are not available, obviously one pilot will have to hand fly, and this WILL take most of that pilot's capacity away from dealing with the emergency. But they will still be able to confirm correct guarded switch, master switch and fire push button selections etc., and deal with basic communications to ATC.

A point to be borne in mind though is that if one pilot is hand flying, then the workload in an emergency of the pilot-not-flying goes up massively - probably by 100%, because s/he is having to be much more vigilant in monitoring the PF's hand flying, (for example bank angle), AS WELL as dealing with the ECAM, checklists, and landing distance calculations etc. etc. So while PF might think they have plenty of capacity to hand fly, they must remember that in doing so they are actually using some of PNF's capacity as well.

So PF might think they're Jack-the-lad and the poor dumb PNF is slow and behind the aircraft, without realising how much they have loaded up the PNF. They would do well to think very carefully before hand flying in an emergency unless there was no alternative.





U

[compressor stall]

As an aside, I was told of an engine failure in a well known Far East airline which was handled adequately and returned. Upon analysis, it was realised that the PF hand flew the whole thing, despite a perfectly good autopilot.

The reason given upon questioning this was that every sim check was a manually flown EO. When the real thing happened the PF did what he was repeatedly trained and in the stress of the moment didn't engage the AP as it was unfamiliar in a time of 'need'.

[vilas]

compresser stall
It is difficult to believe what you say because autopilot handling with OEI on A320 is no different than with two enines.

[FoxForce44]

Guys, come on! The autopilot can fly with higher accuracy than an aviator. But its unable to decide. So, AP on, I have control and comms, ECAM ACTIONS, and let the pilots do what we can do that the AP cant. Decide and manage the situation.

Pronto.

[compressor stall]

Vilas, I think you misunderstood the post.

[vilas]

WhyByFlyer and OPEN DES
Slight clarification about PF's call "I have controls". PF and PNF is decided before the flight. If at the moment of abnormality occurring if PF is in control, he only calls "ECAM ACTIONS" and it also means he has communications till ECAM is completed. If PNF was at controls then only first "I have controls" call by PF is required. This is confirmed by Airbus.

[Natstrackalpha]

you are not utilising all resources. CRM!

1/. AP pb push and sq radio fail

2/. Door unlatch

3/. Retreat to Galley

4/. sit down somewhere nice, and pour yourself a coffee.

5/. Note the time,

6/. If there are yummies in the Galley or indeed in the cabin . . ooohh la la!

7/. Stuff yourself stupid with food, chat to the birds.

8/. Keep an eye on the time, at 5 mins < TOD return to the flightdeck, explain to ATC that you have been having problems with the radio

9/. Descend at ToD

The bus is designed to be AP flown, steer it with the FCU if you must, but the higher the level of automatics the better, on the bus - this does not mean go to sleep - ha, ha, but the concept of flying a piece of electronic digital plastic and an aeroplane are like world`s apart, it is not an L1011 or a Hawker Hunter or even a B737 its an airbus.

By the way some bus pilots would prob have a hard time with the B737 and yet play the bus like a slot machine in Vegas.

If you can fly aeroplanes AND you learn how to fly a bus - you are a great pilot on the bus.

You cannot "fly" a bus. You can only operate it, with deft pilot knowledge hopefully in the background.

Use the AP thats what it is there for.

Practice Raw Data this and that, like some people pratice deep root canal work.

Seriously, practice flying it when its all messed up - because it sure as hell was not designed to be operated "flown" that way, you cannot "fly" a bus.

[tom775257]

Compressor stall: That is the exact same thing that happened in our company. The captain did a nice EFATO and return to land, all hand flown. When asked why he didn't use automatics, he stated that is what you always do in the sim, so it came naturally in the heat of the moment.

Our company has also found pilots are very unwilling to restart an engine that has run down, because it always catches fire or doesn't restart in the sim (depending on the instructors whim). An issue of negative training I suppose.

[A4]

I know I said I wouldn't return to this thread but regarding re-starting the engine........

Modern engines are SUPER reliable. They don't fail without reason (obviously :} ). Once it's failed, it's a known quantity i.e. you've lost a GEN, a BLEED and a HYD - all of which are usually backed up with redundancy. If you restart it then it's an unknown quantity - is it going to fail again on short final? Is it going to fail again only more spectacularly?

You may want to restart it to get the services but as propulsion unit - after it's "failed" I would treat it as unusable and get it on the ground pronto and hand it over to the engineers. If it restarts ok, are you then going to continue on to your destination 2,3 or 4 hours away?

A4