G650 day rate

[givdrvr]

Anyone have any idea what the contract market is for the G650 daily rate? Fresh type with plenty of off time to contract. Thanks in advance

[cldrvr]

A fresh airframe with less than a handful delivered, robbreid or flex can tell us exactly how many. All new owners get their crews typed as part of the delivery, so I reckon the need for contract crew worldwide is exactly zero right now, give it a year or so and it may change.

[FLEXJET]

G650 "market" at this time: (sorry, limited listing as the others won't be for free :=)

I understand the first 6 airframes had issues to be fixed, hence late delivery of 6003 and 6005.

Delivery date / Reg / msn / Operator-Owner / Base

20DEC2012 N711SW 6007 Wynn Resorts KLAS
20DEC2012 N100A 6010 Exxon Mobil Corp KDAL
26DEC2012 N102BG 6011 Contrail Aviation LLC - Berwind Group KPHL
27DEC2012 N650PH 6013 Preston Henn but leased to Gulfstream as demo KSAV
28DEC2012 N762MS 6008 Wal-Mart Stores Inc KROG
31DEC2012 N524EA 6012 Falstaff Partners LLC - Carlyle KIAD
07JAN2013 M-YGVI (OH-GVV) 6006 Airfix - Famous Russian oil company EFHK
26FEB2013 VQ-BNZ 6009 Royal Flight of Jordan OJAI
26FEB2013 N1AL 6015 ALC 6015 LLC - ILFC KVNY
21MAR2013 N100ES 6014 EarthStar - Disney KBUR
28MAR2013 N673HA 6018 Hamilton Aviation Inc KHIO
29MAR2013 N305CC 6021 Carnival Corp KFLL
04APR2013 N520GA 6020 Honeywell Inc KPHX
TBD N211HS 6003 Starbucks KSEA
TBD N914BD 6005 Dillard's Stores KLIT
TBD N886WT 6017 Qualcomm Inc KSAN
TBD N1KE 6024 Nike KHIO

[macklin]

Hi!
Just a small correction, Airfix Aviation Oy is not a famous russian oil-company. The aircraft OH-GVV owner is a russian oil-company.

Airfix Aviation Oy (http://www.airfixaviation.fi/index.php?page=company)

jukka

[FLEXJET]

Sure, Airfix is the operator. Rosneft or Gunvor are famous russian oil companies. See the dash between Airfix (Operator) and the "owner".

[givdrvr]

Even with the few airframes flying I have already gotten some requests to provide augmented crew support to outside operators. Since the full service contract is 97000USD I think 2000/day is sufficient to avoid underpricing the market.

[ATPMBA]

Quote: Since the full service contract is 97000USD

Is that for the type rating in a sim?

Does Flight Safety do the type ratings? Any other training organization doing types for the 650?

[envoy]

Last I heard, the ratings are being handled exclusively by FSI, with GAC directing the scheduling of classes, dependent on delivery schedule. All driven by the need to get people qualified in time for airframe delivery.

Feel free to correct me if this has changed!

[ra4000]

You are correct.
No type available for the next 2 years
Only 1 sim.

[Flying Mechanic]

Flight safety in Hong Kong is getting 650 sim later this year.

[Klimax]

FM,

Are FSI HK actually adding a new frame/simulator at CX City? Wonder how the setup will be with ground school etc..

Cheers,

[FrankR]

Perhaps someone who wanted the 100% answer should call Otto, the manager at FSI in HK and find out. The word I hear is that Cathay is evicting FSI within a year because they want the SIM bay...

I also hear that HK is not packed with students because the expats in HK all want to go to LGB so they can get a trip to the states, and the Chinese companies want to use CAE in DXB because it is cheaper.

? Has anyone heard a date for opening of the 450/550 sim at CAE in Shanghai?

FR

[envoy]

FSI HKG charging full rate for classes doesn't help their cause. When you take into account airfares, it is cheaper to get the job done in LGB than HKG. A benefit of going to HKG (other than it being FSI) is that you are offline for less time. That benefit - of course - depends on your point of view!

I am not a fan of CAE DXB, having gone through one on their box-ticking courses a couple of years back. I continue to hear horror stories about the Gulfstream program there - unqualified (or absent) examiners, incorrect course enrolments, arrogant (and ignorant) instructors, no study notes... I will choose quality instruction over a biz class airfare any day!

In addition to CAE SHA, I have heard that there will be a G450/550 sim somewhere in Guangdong (Zhuhai?): locally run, aimed at B-reg mainland jets. Anyone heard anything about that?

[B200Drvr]

Envoy
All those things you mentioned about CAE DXB have been experienced at FSI HKG!! I got bumped 6 hours so that FSI could train their own people, and only got notified once I arrived at the facility. To little time to go home again, so had to wait at CX city!!! There are a few very good instructors there, but there are also a few arrogant twats that have no place teaching, and NO standardization!! As for the cost, well thats just ridiculous, a recurrent at FSI HKG cost the same as my 550 initial at CAE NJ!!!

[Latte tester]

US$100,000 for the type, plus or minus a few $$$...
US$2000/day seems about right, if you can get it...not too many airframes and now well over 200 typed pilots.

[Victorian Dad]

I have heard €1800.00 to €2200 is the going rate I currently charge €1400 a day for the 450/550 for one off clients and reduce it for regular clients this is obviously all subject to the client.

I can not see enough 650 to justify a 100K type rating however I have had work coming out of my ears lately supporting clients who have 550 and are upgrading to 650 just had 8 weeks solid work supporting G550 clients whilst their crews are being trained on the 650

[init2winit]

Do you know how long the initial G650 course takes please?

[givdrvr]

The initial TR is 24 days

[init2winit]

Thanks man.

[josephfeatherweight]

The initial TR is 24 days

Hi there, is that 24 days you mention inclusive of any days off? Or maybe there are no days off... Thanks.

[Klimax]

EASA seems to have a final approval for GVI Reduced Type Rating training, for GIV and GV pilots fulfilling some prerequisites. This should cut down the Full TR course by 8 days.

Has anyone completed this reduced TR course, and where?

[B200Drvr]

I stand to be corrected, but can't see them giving a G IV rated pilot a reduced course onto the 650, as they would have to do a full course to get on the 550. It would make sense for a 550 pilot to get a reduced course.

[Klimax]

B200drvr,

My mistake, should have said V IV-X version, and not only V IV.

[Flying Mechanic]

I thought if you had 150 hours on G550 you got a reduced course?

[Klimax]

150h is the number, yes, and the doc says on G IV-X or G V type.

[FrankR]

Will this ever happen? I doubt it. Gulfstream tried to make the G650 a variant to the GV type back during development, and the FAA said no. Also, even if EASA approves reduced training, who would want to do it since they could only fly EASA aircraft.

Would FSI ever reduce the cost? Doubt that also.

FR

[Klimax]

FrankR,


Why would you be limited to EASA airplanes? Any of the overseas authorities that currently accepts and validates EASA licenses likely still validate the EASA endorsed type rating. The only limitation would, as far as I can see, be not getting it accepted on your FAA ticket.


Kmax




Below is a link from EASA;


http://www.google.com.hk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Feasa.europa.eu%2Fsystem%2Ffiles%2Fdfu%2F201 30306%2520GVI%2520OEB%2520Report%2520Final.pdf&ei=IN3uU9S2CNfs8AXD1YGIDg&usg=AFQjCNHr2sS_0N-3zehITf30XIJGiSovnQ&sig2=Xhqt_myN7eKQ3vFsxjhSgg&bvm=bv.73231344,d.dGc

[FrankR]

You are correct Kmax,

So long as you only want to fly EASA reg G650, you are fine. I think you will have a big problem if you want a FAA type later on, since it would be a mountain of paperwork. I bet you will have to take the entire initial over since FSI would otherwise have to get approval for a new variation of "upgrade" type,,,, (if you ever deal with training organizations and the feds, you know how difficult it is).

So I'd say to bite the bullet, and sit through the extra few days in class and get the whole thing. I bet they put you through a full initial anyway, but give you days off when teaching the redundant classes... And it certainly won't cost more...

FR

[Spooky 2]

Is the HK sim going to be an FAA approved device. If not by chance, then no FAA type ratings can be given in that sim.

[Klimax]

FrankR,


With the FAA not currently approving the reduced course, it could easily become an issue later on, however only for aircrew, that holds the FAA ticket or would aspire to get one. There's still a lot of aircrew only operating on validations of their EASA licenses, and always have done so, who probably wouldn't care, combined with perhaps thousands of hours on the G IV-X or G-V, too do a reduced TR.


/Kmax

[deefer dog]

This thread was about daily rates.

EU 1,250 a day is being charged by someone I know straight out of school while he waits for delivery of his G-VI, and he intends to keep the rate for his 14 days off each month.

He didn't pay for his own rating of course. There are those who will undoubtedly ask for more, but at least this guy will be offering recency and he will be in good practice on the type.

[Klimax]

Awaiting his G650, he's obviously got a permanent job, in addition to free lancing or at least one lined up, and as such is not making a living out of that rate, which is less than we pay G550 freelance crew.

[noneya]

Another D-Bag bringing the industry down!!!! Hopefully no one will use him due to his lack of experience in the plane!

If he already has a job..... Then why bring the rest of the group down to some stupid low level?

Grow some balls already and get paid for what you do! :ugh:

[FrankR]

ALL HAIL NONEYA

.... for saying what ALL professional pilots should have said, or at least been thinking.

FR

[deefer dog]

Hopefully no one will use him due to his lack of experience in the plane!


I am not saying I condone it, or otherwise, but he WILL have experience and currency on type if he is flying it 14 days a month in his full time job and freelancing the rest of the month.

Just an aside, how many pilots do you think are gonna pay for their own ratings in the hope of picking up freelance work, and how current and experienced in type will they get on the airplane?

[papak]

I know of two gentlemen in the LA area charging US$2500/day. My understanding is that is fairly common in the US.

[Air737]

Anybody have a G550 POH or Type Training Manual copy or CD to sell

[mutt]

While we are talking about the 650, does anyone know what is the quickest delivery that one could expect if willing to buy one?

[deefer dog]

Seems from above that the market, and not some vociferous posters here (who probably aren't even rated on the G-VI), will determine what the rate should be.

That's the way it should be despite sentiments of insecurity, protectionism and, God forbid, price fixing that seem to abound as soon as salaries/daily rates are mentioned on this forum.

[FrankR]

Hi Mutt,
I know a very well placed US individual, who has all the funds available, who has been looking to buy one new off the line from someone who no longer wants one. He has been looking for over a year, and has not been able to make a deal.

If you put down cash today, it will be 53 months +/- last rumor I heard...

FR

[B200Drvr]

Frank, thats about right, my Boss ordered his in 1Q 2012 and delivery is due 4Q 2015. So orders placed then were 40+ months.

[mutt]

Thanks, it sounds as if the local salesman is being liberal with his delivery estimates :)

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

I have heard €1800.00 to €2200 is the going rate I currently charge €1400 a day for the 450/550 for one off clients and reduce it for regular clients this is obviously all subject to the client.

I can not see enough 650 to justify a 100K type rating however I have had work coming out of my ears lately supporting clients who have 550 and are upgrading to 650 just had 8 weeks solid work supporting G550 clients whilst their crews are being trained on the 650
Just out of curiosity, since I have yet to join the industry (hopefully I will soon), are these daily rates net or gross?

Just curios to understand how freelance rates are charged and if on top of that you guys charge for perdiems as well as transfers and hotel.

Thanks!:cool:

[noneya]

When I was only doing contract. I charged the rate ($1,300 GIV and $1,500 G450/550) plus... hotels 4-star or better, all meals reimbursed, and business class tickets for travel more than 4 hours, or out of the country (USA).

Companies that were worth flying for, never questioned it and always paid me. Companies that complained about my terms, usually meant getting paid was going to be a headache, and I didn't want to work for anyway! It was an easy way to weed out the crap!!!

Now as the guy who uses contract pilots every once in awhile to fill vacations or training, when I look at a pilots terms, I always question the guy that is underselling themselves trying to under cut the industry! I just will not use them!! My boss pays for experienced well qualified pilots and FA's not for the cheapest person we can put in the seat!!

There are plenty of good companies out there that need contract guys and if guys would just demand what they are worth, then this industry would be a whole lot better!

This is my stance like it or not!
J

[melhuish]

Just been doing an informal survey of G650 day rates. I have heard that one can expect $2000 to $3500 per day. The 'standard' appears to be $2500 in the US.


In Asia, my company pays one rate for contractors regardless of type - 450/550/650. It works out to about $2000 per day.


Travel days appear to be an industry issue with some clients refusing to pay for the travel day or only paying half of the daily rate.


The latest sim prices quoted for the G650 are 54k for a single recurrent and about 74k for the Full Service contract which will give you an additional recurrent on another type to maintain two types.

[Klimax]

Good info melhuish, thanks.
/Kmax

[Yeager]

I would appear that the latest day rates are in the 2500-3000 USD range. As most freelancers have to finance their own re-currents at a heft price tag, most operators, and owners, seems to accept this charge, particular in light of the alternative.. :ok:

[josephfeatherweight]

I would appear that the latest day rates are in the 2500-3000 USD range. As most freelancers have to finance their own re-currents at a heft price tag, most operators, and owners, seems to accept this charge, particular in light of the alternative..

I would appreciate if anyone could comment on the current state of affairs - are we still in the same ballpark for 2500-3000 USD? I understand a G650 pilot provided directly by Gulfstream is 2500 USD. Thanks.

[B200Drvr]

SD380, My advice is don't do it You are about to throw away $91K of your hard earned money on a whim!! DXB does not have a 650 sim so that part is out. Do you have any corporate time if not Gulfstream time? If not, You are probably going to end up in the RHS not earning $2500 a day or anywhere near that. You say you have been all over the world, is that only to city airports as an airline pilot or to out of town small airports that you have had to do your own planing and analysis for? The reason I ask, is because thats what the guy who owns the G650, or his people ( the guy thats the PIC) is going to ask. Furthermore, I have never heard of any company or individual paying someone back for a rating they needed to get hired. They hire type rated pilots for two reasons, experience on type and to save themselves the cost of the type rating. IMHO you are probably going to find yourself having to go back to the expat life in somewhere like Asia to earn back the money you spent on the 650 rating as the competition in the US will be full of people with corporate experience and time on type. Please don't see this as criticism of an airline pilot thinking he can just swing on over into a LHS position in a G650 earning top dollar because he paid for the rating. Its not, its just some food for thought before you blow 91K!!

[josephfeatherweight]

My apologies, but I'd be surprised if you pick up any work given your circumstances (self funded type rating, lack of corporate experience). But I could be wrong - hey, it's only 91K! :p

[Propellerpilot]

Everybody here sees this issue from their own viewpoint and does not necessarily represent the truth as you may then personally experience it. There are many very differnt factors and variables in this equation - being at the right place in the right moment with the qualifications demanded and last but not least, having a good network of connections in the field. So at the end of the day it pretty much burns down to the individual.

If I were you, I would first go jobhunting and then, when you have an agreement of guaranteed employment as soon as the the TR is stamped in your license, go ahead and spend your money on it - otherwise the danger of running empty is just too big and what the others have posted is very valid. You are also distorting the market, if you pay for TRs - I do not blame you personally, but it is still a fact. If you are really that experienced, as you say, then why would an owner of such an aircraft not sponsor you a TR ? That is one thing I fail to understand here. If you are rather "inexperienced" and receive a joboffer in turn for financeing the TR (like I explained above) I can understand it as a stepping stone, as I have done it that way myself.

[INNflight]

A boat will kind of have resale value. A house definitely might. A G550/650 type rating on a piece of paper will have nil. Zero. Nothing. And that's already after not even one year of having it.

I can not see (and I hope for your sake that I am wrong) anyone who would hire somebody with a type rating but no experience.
I think most contract guys bring exactly that: massive hours on type. That's why they are ready to go, charge a premium and have high market value.

If you have no experience on type but 95k ink printed on your license dare I say you won't fly. I seriously consider it a bad investment.

I'm not saying don't do it as it is your money (ok I am kind of saying don't...), but the smarter way would most definitely be to apply to a permanent position where the company values your previous experience, and by reading what you said you have lots of it.
Chances are it's not your high-paying dream job, but they will likely pay your rating and bond you for it. You win. Or they may give you a job and you'll have to pay the rating. You still kind of win. You can keep the 90k in your bank account and pay your living expenses with it, and if you feel the need to go contract after gaining time on type - just do. No risk for you putting in a lot of money upfront.

[Propellerpilot]

I say again: In your situation, get a job first, before financing the particular TR. It makes more sense and every employer that has any of the latter will understand, you just need to sell yourself and your expertease properly. Financing the TR before, will not make any difference, except that you will probably be catogorized as slightly insane... or they will use you and suck you dry like a vampire and guess who will be forced to pay for an expensive recurrent all by himself after a year ? Don't make yourself easy bait for the sharks - it is not worth it.

Also remember, there is often generalized bias towards airline pilots that they can not get the job done in Biz Av and the same of course goes vice versa for a BizAv Pilot wanting to go Airline.

[Global_Global]

At our company they still hire based on who you are and not what you rating you have. Having the rating and not being the rights stuff from a company perspective is an expensive exercise... We are NEVER interested in the rating if you dont have the hours, specially not for contractors. If you have the hours we are always willing to look at training the right person for the rating...

In other words take the advice giving by a lot of people here: get a job first and then look at sorting the rating... You are planning on playing Russian Roulette my friend :rolleyes:

[dirk85]

Please stay where you are.

No need for the likes of you (no offence), too bored to fly airline and load of cash to buy the rh seat (with the guarantee to go soon to the left seat OF course) of the top of the line business jet, while all of us idiots in the executive world would kill to have a company to sponsor our 550/650 type rating, after decades in this sector, busting our asses.

This is why employers do not bother anymore to pay for type ratings of their pilots in this world, while let te guess, you got your 777 or 380 rating without spending a dime.

No thanks.

[Propellerpilot]

No - he must pay and go to bloody China....

[FrankR]

FYI, I get calls every day from 4-5 guys with airline time and no Gulfstream time who just bought a 550 or 650 type. Two have zero contracts since Oct-Dec, and the others have maybe one contract where they needed a third pilot.....

Your friends are the ones who hire you, who are your friends?

If you are in Dubai, why not go to China, if you're in China, try Dubai. Everyone is hiring 737 and 320 guys! You could get a left seat job today...

FR

[dirk85]

Thanks for screwing us in the back by buying your way in a niche of the market where self sponsored TR were still non existent.

You are contributing to the demise of T&C in the industry, hope at least you realize it.

[silverknapper]

and no Gulfstream time who just bought a 550 or 650 type.

I was under the impression that 650 courses were still factory allocated. Has it changed?

[Klimax]

Straight from the horses mouth in LBG. The going day rate is currently 3000USD plus expenses paid for, but scaps will do ot for less with pathetic excuses. Just bringing the message.

Good drills

[Klimax]

Are you freelancers still charging a day rate of 2500USD on the G650?
Has the CAE simulator in DXB lowered the recurrent cost?

[slatch]

We currently pay 2000 USD for G550 plus plus
G650 3000 USD plus plus N reg

[Klimax]

Slatch, thanks for the updated info. K.

[claraball]

Slightly off topic but some of you on this thread could shed some light if you don't mind. I'm a 777 captain looking to return Stateside and to corporate. Thinking to be a contract pilot. Previous corporate experience. What's the best type rating and how do I get into working for a daily rate? What's the best location or does it matter?

[Klimax]

Slightly off topic but some of you on this thread could shed some light if you don't mind. I'm a 777 captain looking to return Stateside and to corporate. Thinking to be a contract pilot. Previous corporate experience. What's the best type rating and how do I get into working for a daily rate? What's the best location or does it matter?

Self financing the type rating to go freelancing, does mean starting out with zero hours on type (presumably!), which would likely prohibit most freelance contract jobs, as most require some actual time (for insurance policy] and experience on actual type. Just something to consider.

I let a “Stateside” colleague respond with regards to best type rating, but I would have said GVI until recently, though with the new “high end” models entering the market the next year (G500 and Global 7000) that may the direction to go, as at least for a while the demand for time on type will not hold waters 😂.

Expect day rates in mentioned types around 2-3000USD + Business costs.

Good luck.