Anyone had smoke/fire in the cabin experience?

[piperboy84]

Just watching that air crash investigation TV show where they featured a tragedy about a fire on a Swiss Air flight. I would be interested to know if anyone has had smoke or fire in the cabin of a small aircraft (spamcan etc.) and how did you dealt with it, and in retrospect if there is anything you would have done different. Or things that were learned from the experience

[pilotpaul]

Aye.

The beauty of a light aircraft is you can be on the ground pretty quick, providing the ground is forgiving.

Every incident is different. I departed a midlands airfield on a training flight, smell of "burning" and declared a pan and got lucky. As it happened 5000' down to a Easterly runway was just perfect, high speed approach, door open for fresh air, student briefed, gentle landing, runway vacated and a sharp exit. All great fun.

Aircraft had been in engineering prior to flight, battery terminals weren't tightened and were arcing against plastic cover.

[piperboy84]

pilotpaul,

Did you do any checklist, or switch of the master etc or was it get it down as quick as possible as is

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The value of reading accident reports ...

Slight smell of burning in the cockpit on the climb out. Remembered a fatal accident where the pilot reacted to a smell of burning, shut down the engine, and crashed into houses ... unnecessarily, as it had been an electrical fire, not an engine fire.

So I did nothing immediately, and thought about it for a few seconds.

Then I shut off the cabin heat and opened the air vent ... I'd pulled the wrong knob (it was the middle of summer).

[mary meagher]

Don't panic! don't panic!!!!

Only engine fire I ever had was on the ground, Cessna 152 at WAP, my instructor overprimed a bit, and suddenly there was smoke curling up from the engine! He got out and grabbed the fire extinguisher, and told me to report it to the office, so I shut down the engine, turned off the switches and calmly (don't panic! ) walked into the office and announced "We have an engine fire."

It was like stirring up a wasp nest. Everyone started running around like mad.
Meanwhile my instructor had been handy with the extinguisher, the fire was out, and the engine steaming and sulking.....I was told off for shutting down the engine, seems that there is less damage if you run the engine, with an overprime event. What did I know?

Later in the cafe one of my gliding instructors told me "Don't worry about burning up a Cessna, Mary, there's plenty more....."

[Mariner9]

I detected an unusual acrid smell in a PA28 on climb out from Cardiff in a PA28 which I thought could be a fire. Declared an emergency and got landing clearance, then master off, did a quick 180 and landed downwind (huge rwy so no issues). Completely forgot to close heater or open fresh air vents as I was so focussed on getting back down quickly.

Turns out the a/c had just had a replacement carpet fitted and the smell arose from the glue getting hot around the heater ducts.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

I think Gertrude makes an important point.

I remember some years ago, reading an account of an emergency situation occurring aboard one of the Bell rocket aircraft; I think it was the X1.

The pilot, (I forget who it was, Everest, Crossfield or one of the other big US names of the time,) stated that when the problem occurred, he first took a second or so to think through what had happened and then what needed to be done.

His point was that there is usually no need for an instant reaction to a situation and a knee-jerk reaction might result in an even worse situation.

This is something I have tried to incorporate into my own attitude to flying emergencies, not that I've had any worthy of note.

Regards,

BP.

[englishal]

Unless you see flames, feel heat, or are burning.....DON'T PANIC....

We used to get engine fumes in the cockpit of one plane I flew. Used to always get a headache after a long flight and the odd smell. One day we brought a CO detector with us - an electric one - and after about an hours flight the thing went off, so we opened the vents and played the fresh air onto our faces until we landed. Turned out there was a belly pan on the AC which was removed for the annual, and when replaced it was meant to slide under under the front cowling. Except the engineers had it lipped OVER the front cowling. This meant that exhaust fumes from the exhaust pipe were getting in the small gap between the cowling and belly panel and hence under the floor and eventually over time the CO levels built up. Rectified that and the problem was solved...

I am always very dubious when I fly an aircraft straight after maintenance !

[sharpend]

My only advice is know your drills and know how to use the fire extinguisher. When did you last have a good look at how it works?

I also amazed by the number of aeroplanes than don't have a Carbon Monoxide warning sticker in the cockpit. They are very cheap and may save your life.

Finally, I am often amazed by the large number of pilots who start with the radio off. If the engine catches fire, then a Mayday call to the tower will hopefully despatch the fire tender quickly. Certainly quicker than if your radio is off. Anyway, you would be better off running away than turning on a radio to make a call. But a call, none the less, is vital.

[sharpend]

But in answer to the question, yes in 50 years of flying I have had a few scares.

One such interesting fire was in a large passenger plane which I was the captain of. A stewardess had gone into the rear toilet and discovered the waste bin on fire. The previous passenger had popped in for a smoke and had destroyed the smoke detector so that he would not be discovered smoking.

I asked for the idiot to own up and of course no one did. So I had every passenger interviewed by airport police before they were allowed to disembark. The naughty man responsible was very quickly pointed out by the other irate other passengers :)

[Mariner9]

I also amazed by the number of aeroplanes than don't have a CO2 warning sticker in the cockpit.

(My bold)

Just to be pedantic, suggest that should be CO :8

[Flyingmac]

Note the registration. Try not to laugh when you read the report.:=

Air Accidents Investigation: Schweizer 300C (Hughes 269), G-BRNR (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/december_1990/schweizer_300c__hughes_269___g_brnr.cfm)

[dublinpilot]

Finally, I am often amazed by the large number of pilots who start with the radio off.

Radios are always left off because to the damage that can be caused to them due to electrical spikes during start up. It's not a good idea to leave them on during startup. Of course as soon as the engine has started you should turn them back on.

[Shoestring Flyer]

If you use a fire extinguisher in the confines of a light aircraft cockpit the fumes will in all probability overcome you!!

[Mariner9]

Shoestring - not sure how regulatory-approval could be obtained on an extinguisher which could prove fatal if used in the air :confused:

[cockney steve]

@ flyingmac....Sorry, oi larfed :ok:

Don't know wether to blame the "incident" on the Instructor, or the manufacturer of a device that's not intuitive to use in an emergency.

"Feel like an emergency?- try the WHIZZBANG...it may alleviate the one you've got, or make it pale into insignificance, with the one you create.....WHIZZBANG....instant adrenaline fix, for when things get a bit routine! "

[Shoestring Flyer]

The fumes from a released Halon extinguisher in the confines of a small cockpit will get you long before the fire does!
Get the aircraft on the ground immediately, forget the extinguisher whilst in the air!

I personally in my LAA machine refuse to carry one!....it is not obligatory.

[OpenCirrus619]

Some years ago (having already got a PPL) I was just solo in a glider. Since it was a good day the instructor decided to give me a little soaring instruction.

One we were well away and relaxing the cockpit suddenly filled with smoke - which provoked a couple of seconds of consternation (along with trying to remember the fire drills I had learnt during my PPL course).

After a few more seconds I recalled 2 important facts:

I was in a glider - so the fuel off, mixture ICO, .... were all pretty useless :confused:
Someone had warned me that, if we "got away", the instructor in question had a habit of lighting his pipe :cool:


As the glider was a tandem (like most) with the instructor behind me I hadn't spotted the lighting up sequence. :hmm:

OC619

[Mariner9]

The fumes from a released Halon extinguisher in the confines of a small cockpit will get you long before the fire does!

Given that halon extinguishers are mandated on some aircraft do you really believe that could be so Shoestring?

References please if you do.

[cockney steve]

Before they were outlawed, I had a "Redex" aerosol-type BCF (Halon) car-extinguisher actually mounted on the garage's MIG welder.....Many's the time a quick squirt put out underseal / seam-sealer / sound-deadening that had set on fire. The stuff disperses pretty quickly and I think , if you get some Gas-fitter's smoke-matches or pellets (Screwfix) and have a pax do the honours, i'd be staggered if your cockpit is as airtight and draught-free as you think.

It would be wise to notify a person in authority /fire/tower of your intended test, as the volume of smoke is pretty impressive for ~5-20 seconds!

Halon- very effective, CO2-good, but only avail. in bigger sizes.
Powder- waste of space foam/water OK if you can get in quick...in my experience, you need a big-enough one to chill petrol below it's flash-point...theoretically, it is not supposed to be for that.

Just my opinion....I'd go with Halon..you can always open a door/window to vent.

[Mariner9]

Halons were only banned due to their harmful affect on the ozone layer, not for any other reason. They are not banned for aircraft use however (indeed, they are mandated on some aircraft).

[stevfire2]

mariner 9, spot on, halon is the only suitable all rounder for in flight use. co2 is to bulky, foam has poor penetration properties, powder is instant IR conditions.

[Pace]

When I was flying Citations as a co pilot/ FO We made a night departure from Biggin Hill enroute to Majorca.
Climbing out in the pitch black with a Cabin full of PAX I noticed a slight shimmering around the Captains head.
At first I thought my eyes were playing tricks and blinked only to see the shimmer now intensifying.
Then I noticed the strong acrid burning smell the type that caught you in the back of your throat.
There was now visible smoke in the cabin. I looked back to the PAX compartment and could hardly see the PAX who were getting very alarmed.
Smoke was billowing out of the vents.
ATC asked us to contact Paris and we were passing FL240 in the climb.
I told ATC that we had a smoke filled compartment and needed an immediate return and landing to Biggin Hill.
We were given a direct and cleared in the descent.
Oxygen masks on we tried to clear the smoke by depressurising the cabin
Joined left base and landed at Biggen to be met by the usual fire engines.
My hair stank my clothes stank the PAX were in a state.
What caused it? a burnt out fan motor in the induction system

Pace

[Big Pistons Forever]

Of all the possible emergencies in a light aircraft a cockpit fire is the only one that really concerns me. In the tight confines of the cabin life will get very bad very quickly and good luck trying to wield an extinguisher inside your typical SEP.

The good news is that a true fire is almost certainly going to be electrically caused and turning off the master at the first sign of a burning odour and/or smoke will likely stop whatever is smoldering from catching fire.

But it is vital that you do not delay turning off the master as a dead short can result in localized temps of over 1000 deg F in as little as 30 seconds. With those kinds of temps any adjacent nasty plastic bits will be set alight and then you are in big, big trouble.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Don't panic! don't panic!!!!

Only engine fire I ever had was on the ground, Cessna 152 at WAP, my instructor overprimed a bit, and suddenly there was smoke curling up from the engine! He got out and grabbed the fire extinguisher, and told me to report it to the office, so I shut down the engine, turned off the switches and calmly (don't panic! ) walked into the office and announced "We have an engine fire."

It was like stirring up a wasp nest. Everyone started running around like mad.
Meanwhile my instructor had been handy with the extinguisher, the fire was out, and the engine steaming and sulking.....I was told off for shutting down the engine, seems that there is less damage if you run the engine, with an overprime event. What did I know?

Later in the cafe one of my gliding instructors told me "Don't worry about burning up a Cessna, Mary, there's plenty more....."

From the C 152 emergencies procedures section of the POH.

Engine Fire During Start on the Ground

1) Cranking ........ continue to try to get a start which will suck the flames and accumulated fuel through the carburetor and into the engine.

.............. If engine starts..................

2) Power....1700 RPM for a few minutes
3) Engine....Shut down and inspect for damage


..............If engine fails to start .............

4) Throttle........... ..Full open
5) Mixture...............Idle Cut Off
6) Cranking ............Continue
7) Fire Extinguisher...Obtain
8) Engine ...............Secure

Seems to em a pretty poor performance on the part of your instructor as he did not do any of the correct procedures for this situation.....

I have to say that I don't understand what seems to be a very UK flight school prevalent tendency to keep the aircraft POH's carefully hidden away still in their plastic shrink wrap. I guess you wouldn't want students to actually follow the recommendations of the aircraft manufacturer, now would you?

Also I guess actually incorporating the POH recommended procedures in flight training makes it kind of hard to continue to follow all those silly UK flight schoolism like turning off the carb heat at 300 feet on final, something explicitly prohibited by the Cessna POH which specifies that the carb heat should be full on prior to closing the throttle :rolleyes:

[jollyrog]

Piper PA28 LYCOMING O-320 Cruise Sevenoaks 06/08/2011 201109447

MAYDAY declared due to smoke and electrical burning smell in cockpit. Squawk 7700 selected. Autopilot control unit defective. Just after autopilot was engaged in HDG mode smoke emanated from under LH side of instrument panel in area of autopilot control unit accompanied by an electrical burning smell. Autopilot disengaged, associated circuit breaker pulled and cockpit vented. After declaring an emergency master switch was selected off and a/c continued to destination. Uneventful landing carried out with RFFS in attendance. A/c inspected and no fire or damage found. Subsequent engineering inspection confirmed cause of smoke/burning was a defective autopilot control unit.

I wasn't far from Laddingford and did consider putting it down there, but I was 99% certain it was the autopilot, which by then I had disconnected. I only put it on for a moment while I was writing something down!

It was a bit of a brown trouser moment and a real reminder of the things you lose when you fly with the master switch off.

Aircraft inspected by an engineer at Headcorn, then returned to Biggin with many CBs pulled (as a precaution) and just one radio on.

[piperboy84]

Shutting the master off immediately makes sense, however in my plane, as I assume is the case with most other spam cans, you lose the stall warning which has to be taken into consideration in a fire/smoke situation where your attention will be diverted from the basics of flying

[fatmanmedia]

one question that came to mind when reading this thread is.

How many people carry a smoke hoods?

i remember Avweb carried a feature on it a few years ago and i wondered if people actually carried one.

here is the link to the item

Cockpit Smoke Hoods (http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/cockpit_smoke_hoods_197712-1.html)

Fats

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The good news is that a true fire is almost certainly going to be electrically caused and turning off the master at the first sign of a burning odour and/or smoke will likely stop whatever is smoldering from catching fire.
Is it worth looking at the ammeter first? Do most shorts result in a high discharge shown, or are shorts that don't show on the ammeter common enough that this isn't helpful?

[mary meagher]

Come on Big Pistons, don't be so high and mighty, how many flying schools in the US have instructors who have memorised the POH and trot out the precise procedures in a critical moment? I thought he did right well to locate the fire extinguisher and put out the flames without delay. Exiting the aircraft promptly seemed to be a top priority as far as I was concerned.

Even Capt. Sullenberger and his co-pilot didn't have time to read more than a couple of pages of all the useful information on water landings...step one, restart the engines, step two, try again, POH says a lot but experience and judgement say if you are on the ground and believe your aircraft is on fire, leave the vicinity with all deliberate speed.....

I have seen avgas burn, and it just goes WOOOF!

[Big Pistons Forever]

High and Mighty ?

I guess if insisting that instructors actually know the emergency procedures for the aircraft they are teaching in, which in a Cessna/Piper SEP are few in number and pretty simple; then guilty as charged.

When I teach the flight instructor rating everyone of my students better have them down cold by hour 5 or I am not going to be happy.

I once had the exact same situation occur on start. The engine fired as soon as the throttle went in, sucked in the flames and then died as the excess fuel was consumed (the ICO mixture ensured no new fuel was introduced). No heroics with a fire extinguisher was required and except for a slightly melted air filter no damage to the aircraft.

The POH procedure works and I reiterate my belief that it is totally unacceptable for an instructor not to know and follow it.

Is it worth looking at the ammeter first? Do most shorts result in a high discharge shown, or are shorts that don't show on the ammeter common enough that this isn't helpful?

You should see the ammeter pegged in the event of a dead short. Where the problem occurs will determine what you see ( i.e. full scale discharge or full scale charge)

I once had a voltage regulator fail and the ammeter went to full scale charge ( ie more than 60 amps). I immediately turned off the alternator side of the master and the ammeter then indicated a slight discharge appropriate to the draw of the selected electrical load items. There was no smoke or strong smell so I treated it as a charging system failure and landed at the nearest airport before the battery was depleted

[mary meagher]

Hey, Big Pistons, I just had a look at your public profile, and am impressed, as a Fire Bomber Pilot in a Convair 580, you must have smelled a bit of smoke from time to time. Should amend my description of you to read "Low and Mighty" which is a lot more impressive......apologies for any disrespect.

Have you any good yarns about fire bombing from the air? Do share!

[cooperplace]

was rolling for takeoff in a Jabiru, gravel strip, doing about 60knots, when there was a bang. I was in a takeoff mindset, and lifted off, thinking, what was that? was it bigger piece of gravel? At about maybe 100ft AGL, just as we were passing over the end of the strip, suddenly smelt burning. My instructor said "my aircraft"; I responded "your aircraft!!". We did a low -level circuit,declared an emergency, asked another plane on final to get out of the way (they did, right away, to my relief) and we landed, engine running fine. On the strip was our exhaust pipe, which had come off. We were smelling exhaust gas.

Happy ending.

Lessons:
1. It took maybe 2-3 seconds to assimilate the "what on earth is happening?" thought.
2. If something goes wrong before you lift off, then abort the takeoff if you can.