Albanese wants to spend $114 Billion on Trains, why?

[neville_nobody]

Don't understand this....why would you spend 114 Billion on a transport network that is more expensive, more environmentally damaging, more inefficient, and more statistically dangerous than flying?

Trains are fine for SYD-CBR or Newcastle distance, but are way to slow to start doing Melbourne. You can do SYD-MEL return easily in a business day in a jet, something you won't be doing in a train.

How about the Australian Government take some of that 114 Billion and spend it on the Aviation industry and make that more efficient rather than these stupid pie in the sky train ideas.

And why are the Greens backing trains when they destroy such a large amount of the natural landscape? Greens epspeciialy at a local council level have a fit if you cut down a tree, now they want to go and bulldozed 1700KMs of natural landscape and hills.

Don't understand their thinking. Aviation is arguably the greenest form of transport after sailing, how about we let it reach its potential rather than these stupid ideas.

Albanese backs high-speed rail despite cost (http://www.afr.com/p/national/albanese_backs_high_speed_rail_despite_nZ04pYndazI7CN3fBA4e0 I)

Federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese has said the government is “serious” about building a high-speed rail network for Australia’s east coast, despite estimates that it will cost around $114 billion and take more than 40 years to complete.

Greens Leader Christine Milne also enthusiastically backed the project and suggested Australia’s “cashed up” superannuation funds could invest in the project.

However, the report estimates a feeble rate of return for investors of just 0.8 per cent, meaning it will have to be built with state and federal government money.

“An expected return of at least 15 per cent would be required at this stage of project development to be attractive to commercial providers of debt and equity to major infrastructure projects. [The link] would fall well short of this,’’ it says.

Mr Albanese on Thursday launched a report commissioned in 2010 into building a 1700 kilometre high-speed rail link between Melbourne and Brisbane.

“It’s pretty clear this would require a substantial commitment by the national government. It’s also the case there would need to be state and territory government contributions,” Mr Albanese told ABC radio on Thursday morning.

“Overall, there is a significant economic benefit, a return of $2.30 for every dollar that is invested.”

Mr Albanese said he had written to first ministers in NSW, Queensland, Victoria and the ACT about the report and would be establishing a “high-speed rail advisory group”.

Opposition infrastructure spokesperson and leader of the nationals Warren Truss said the idea of a high-speed rail line was a “great dream” but he was not convinced of its value.

“The cost estimated at this stage is obviously a high barrier. The country has $300 billion in gross debt and to find that extra money will obviously be a challenge,” Mr Truss said.

“It’s just a shame that debt is already in place, it could have been used for more productive things like high speed rail and we’d have something to show for it, but so much of it unfortunately has just gone into the wind.”

Mr Truss said he was not convinced of the forecast take-up of a high-speed rail network, arguing Australians did not already have an established culture of train travel. He said he was also suspicious of the $114 billion projected cost, given the cost blowout of the current government’s NBN project.

Basing the price of travel on an air fare of similar distance, the study found an average 84 million passengers would use the high-speed rail service every year.

The entire link would not be finished until 2058 and by 2065, the study forecast that the link could take from the airlines 40 per cent of inter-city air travel and 60 per cent of regional air travel.

A trip between Sydney and Canberra would take just over an hour on high-speed rail according to the report, while Sydney to Melbourne would take 2 hours and 44 minutes.

The study concludes that “the potential to attract private finance is limited’’ because of a paltry rate of return.

“An expected return of at least 15 per cent would be required at this stage of project development to be attractive to commercial providers of debt and equity to major infrastructure projects. [The link] would fall well short of this,’’ it says.

“The estimated financial internal rate of return is 1 per cent for Sydney-to-Melbourne and 0.8 per cent for the whole network.’’

[Normasars]

EVERYTHING that emanates from the mouths of these buffoons astounds me. No commonsense, no economic credibility and no idea!!!!!!:ugh::ugh:

[tail wheel]

Why do you think Albanese's opinion is important?

The release suggests a 40 year program but the likely scenario is that Albanese will not be in a position to influence transport projects after September 2013 and may not even be in Parliament after that date. I doubt he has a 40 week political career ahead of him, not 40 years!

However your are rather short sighted in your rejection of the proposal. High speed rail is also used for freight, Australian railways move one billion tonnes of freight each year, 95% of which is Australia's mineral and agricultural produce.

The remaining 5% represents around 3% of Australia's total general and mixed cargo movement, 97% of which is moved by expensive and polluting road trains, which clog our inadequate and antiquated highway system.

A decent, modern, high speed rail system can't come soon enough.

This project has been aired for the last few weeks. The last proposal I heard was that Government provide the track infrastructure and private enterprise provide the rolling stock, operations, sales, marketing and administration infrastructure - which makes a lot of sense!!! :ok:

I assume you feel a high speed rain network will impact upon airline viability, hence your post in a professional pilot forum? As there are geographical and economic limits to where high speed rail networks can be built, I think you will find high speed rail networks in Asia and Europe may adversely affect airline traffic over limited, specific short haul routes, but have little or no impact on total airline traffic.

We'll see if there is any other news on this proposal, other wise the thread may be moved to our other forum for open debate.

[neville_nobody]

However your are rather short sighted in your rejection of the proposal. High speed rail is also used for freight, Australian railways move one billion tonnes of freight each year, 95% of which is Australia's mineral and agricultural produce.

My understanding was that these things are stand alone High Speed systems which don't run standard trains on them just the high speed stuff. If it was a combined slow/high speed train on the one network that is a different proposal. And yes you are correct re the freight.

[bosnich71]

Don't these trains run on electricity, and aren't the watermelons in favour of shutting down conventional power stations? If so it's going to take a whole heap of windmills to get a slow speed train from Melbourne to Brisbane let alone a "high speed" one.

[tail wheel]

I have not been following the Australian proposal, but general freight and mixed passenger/freight is carried on high speed rail networks in other countries. A passenger only high speed network in Australia would not be viable due to our relatively small population and long distances.

A recent ABC article I heard on the proposal - which gave me the above statistics - talked of passengers and general freight.

And if they can reduce the number of Toll, TNT, Linfox, Australia Post, Q Rail etc roadtrains on our highways, it would be a blessing to motorists and enhance road safety.

But I suspect $114 Billion for 1,748 kilometers of track is another wet dream, the same as variously $20 to $45 Billion for the NBN. The entire proposal should go no further until it is accurately costed and an honest cost/benefit survey carried out.

[my oleo is extended]

Why? Because he is a wa#ker.

[Wally Mk2]

ANY infrastructure of this magnitude is well beyond Australia's ability we can't even get the bloody awful public transport ticketing system right (costs I believe beyond $1 Billion:ugh:) never lone build such a rail link. The NBN..............God that's a monumental joke!:ugh:
In theory it's a great idea but Australians don't know how to spell the word!

It would never work, the current Australian Govt system is so short sighted that the fools within that system are there for one reason, to feather their own nest in the 3 yrs (if they last that long) they get to rape & pillage the joint & get out with all the perks we foolish public allow them!

That amount of money as quoted wouldn't even last to get the rail to the next border ! Can you imagine the rorts, the kickbacks the corruption within the Govt & contractors...............:ugh:

We are doomed we will never in our or our children's lifetime see anything like this come to fruition so I wish these idiots would stop wasting our time/money!!:ugh::ugh:
For crying out loud they can't even get a 2nd Rwy organized within the next zillion years for Brissy...
I look at the rest of the industrial world who leave us for dead in such construction & I am almost to say I am ashamed to be an Aussie

Wmk2

[neville_nobody]

It would appear that the railway is stand alone and needs to be to compete with aviation.

Read the high speed rail report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-11/high-speed-rail-report/4622792)

Here's the ABC's spin on it:
Albanese calls for debate on high-speed rail link - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-11/government-to-release-high-speed-rail-report/4621880)

[601]

Having spend some time on the French rail system last year, I can vouch that it is a pleasure to travel on.

No machines to walk through, can carry my nail clippers, runs on time and is unbelievable quiet.

We could even have red Aust Post hi-speed trains like the yellow La Poste TGVs in France.

SNCF TGV La Poste - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_La_Poste)

[denabol]

Ben Sandilands says it is a race between Halley's Comet and the high speed train network as to which appears first this century.

But it's an interesting report, a lot better than some of the others I've read today.

HSR in race with Halley?s Comet to first appear in Australia | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/04/11/hsr-in-race-with-halley%E2%80%99s-comet-to-first-appear-in-australia/)

The incredibly detailed High Speed Rail study begs for discussion and bi-partisan support, and it may not be as hopelessly unaffordable as many are already claiming if it is staged and drives strong ancillary economic benefits

Launching the study Transport and Infrastructure Minister, Anthony Albanese, made it clear the study isn’t a policy manifesto but a document for discussion and hopefully, a cause for critical corridors to be set aside for the future.
It might have been the only press conference the minister ever gives that is reviewed many times over after his death, indeed, given the time frames, after the death, or decline into elderly dementia, of most of those reporters in the Blue Room at Parliament House or watching the video cast.



Albanese was in form, correcting the inaccuracies in Greens leader Christine Milne’s grasp of the political history of the study, which had nothing to do with the party, and contradicting her earlier statements as to how it would remove the need for a second Sydney airport.
“Sydney’s position as a global city of the future is endangered unless a second airport is built,” he said.
He also referred to the need for a growing population to sustain high speed rail on a European scale, a form of growth the Greens generally oppose, and reiterated that “Australia isn’t Europe.”

[tail wheel]

Ben Sandilands says it is a race between Halley's Comet and the high speed train network as to which appears first this century.

:} :D

It seems the proposal includes 44 kilometers of tunnels!

Sky News tonight appears to be confirming it is an Albanese dream and neither Party will be taking it to the elections.

As Wally suggests, getting our current rail network working would be a great start!

[pull-up-terrain]

Just from my experience of catching high speed trains in Japan. A ticket for a train ride similar distance of sydney to Melbourne costs nearly the same as a flight and it takes 4 times longer too. The only reason they have high speed trains in Japan is because of the high population which Australia doesn't have. Not only that, Japan's airports probably couldn't handle all the domestic movement without these high speed trains so they have no choice but to build a high speed rail network.

[IsDon]

The local paper here today quotes that the RTA are about to spend $500,000 on an electronic sign in Taren Point to advise motorists of road conditions on the Captain Cook Bridge.

Jesus wept. Half a mil for a friggin sign! Just another example of the ridiculous cost of infrastructure in Australia. Any wonder the government's broke.

The chances of any government committing the sort of money required for a HSR link are less than zero.

Even if they did, the state bureaucracy would probably require the rolling stock to change at Albury because they couldn't decide what gauge to make the line.

[tail wheel]

In retrospect, the $114 billion high speed rail link is today's wet dream for Albanese.

Tonight the 40 plus year proposal appears to be drawing hoots of laughter from all sides of politics and commerce.

Now, I wonder what incredibly expensive ludicrous dream Gillard and her cronies will propose next week? :confused:

[Jabawocky]

And then they will introduce security and other BS to screw it up too.

:ugh:

[T28D]

Albanese wants to spend $114 Billion on Trains, why?

Simple really, there is an election coming, the masses just might be dumb enough to fall for his 3 card trick.

[my oleo is extended]

Well look on the bright side. It is a 45 year project, that means 45 years to write the necessary rail regulations, maybe.

[Flying Binghi]

"...EARLY in 1952, a group of trucking operators decided to protest against the restrictions on interstate road freight imposed by the states to protect their inefficient railways. Placing a copy of the Australian Constitution in a wheelbarrow, the truckers pushed it from Melbourne to Sydney. The journey took 11 days; but that was still two days quicker than a parcel mailed the same day and carried by rail..."


Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/pms-barrowfuls-of-favours/story-fn7078da-1226604556748)






.

[gassed budgie]

Works out to a bit over $65,000,000.00 for every kilometre of track laid. At least he managed to keep a straight face when he floated this one for the media. Having said that, whenever I see Albo on the tele (was it just me today, or did he seem to have an Adolf Hitler comb over today ?) two words spring to mind. The first one's cock and the second one is head.

[ChrisJ800]

I think its a ploy to get the sydney canberra rail link done first. Next ploy will be to turn canberra airport into an international airport and become the 2nd sydney airport using the rail link.

Life will be so much better for the pollies then!

[aroa]

Hey! Gassed budgie, steady on... I nearly busted a gut laughing!:ok:

Recently Albo had a very rough ride (in first class, of course) thru a front and thunderies to CB. Thinks ..there must be a better way than this. Scary !

BIG LIGHT BULB moment !..ah ha... lets regurgitate that High Speed Rail thingy.

Bit of inter-Department rivalry here too, if Conroy can do 50 Billion on NBN, I can beat that hands down with 114 Billion. Yehaaa I'm tops.!!

Yep..definitely a Richard Cranium.

And he wont even get to ride in a train out of CB come Sept 14.

[Jack Ranga]

I dunno about any of you lot but I started pissing myself laughing when I read it would take 10 years to get all the approvals. CASA must be building it?

[Andy_RR]

spending $114B on infrastructure means the punters will have to stump up $7B or so per annum just to keep the bank manager happy. That's before you even turn it on, let alone depreciate the hardware! $350 or so per person p.a.

I dont think so!

[Typhoon650]

Or just spend one tenth of that and straighten and modernise the existing rail network.
We already have the XPT and Country Explorer trains that can happily do 130-150 km/h, but are hamstrung by tracks designed for lumbering goods trains, which largely don't use the network anymore.
High speed rail for the east coast? Why bother? Who will pay $250 for the tickets?

[EW73]

T28D.....you got it in one! (Post #17)

You'll see over the coming weeks some pretty amazing ideas come out of the current federal crowd, what they're doing is 'canvassing' the public for something that will be able to be 'promised', "if we get elected" and that they can defer to whenever a difficult subject comes up during the run-up to September 14!

:uhoh:

[LewC]

For a Politician threatened with the loss of his place at the trough no lie is too large.Little Albo is again a possibility of losing his Seat to the Greens who will be assisted.this time, by preferences from most of the other candidates.Expect anytime now for Albo to announce that his trains will be covered in solar panels and won't be using any of that filthy coal generated electricity.

[Old Fella]

Folks, the odest political ploy known. Distract the masses from the incompetence of the past six years and the massive debt incurred by proposing a "pipe dream" such as the High Speed Train at $114 Billion. Given the way this mob cooks the books the cost by completion could be anything. One sure bet is that any estimates put forward by Albanese would be even more rubbery than Swans Budget estimates.

It won't happen, certainly not in the lifespan of most of us.

[aroa]

Or our grandchildren.

[my oleo is extended]

Agree with the majority of comments. It's all a load of ****e. These fools can't even spend a few million assisting pensioners on struggle street or providing decent financial assistance to people with disabilities, yet between Albo the Magician and Conroy the Deceptive they are talking about $200 billion worth of fantasy. Fools. What, is Swanny going to start printing money Benanke style or is that red haired freak boss of Swanny going to just take our superannuation to fund their fantasies? Fools.
Of course they are promising to fund big ticket items that will take a century to complete. It's a con, and any voter dumb enough to swallow this crap is beyond help.
As for Albo's hair, agreed, it is a disgrace, it looks like Cousin It from The Adams Family has sat on his head. You would think with all the money that the Mascot Messiah makes from politics he could fix his hair, teeth and slobbering?

[Captain Dart]

I wonder if it was Albo who was the voiceover for the chimp in the 'Wally from Walpamur' ads years ago (remember those?).

[TIMA9X]

Albo is again a possibility of losing his Seat to the GreensYep, and if the greens get in they will do a "Gomez" with the fast train idea to Canberra...:)


iLroIZCgRy4

[Old Fella]

Do you think we could get a "Gomez" to attend an ALP Caucus meeting with his "Toy" ??? Oh, I forgot. Only knives allowed!!!

[Wally Mk2]

"9X" thnxs for the Gomez show, it's been many years since I laughed at that:ok:

I think it's generally considered here that Albo is on his way out, in more ways than one & he can take 'Juliar' with him!:ugh:
Thanks God the ALP are all but sunk!!!

I'd hate to think how much real help to Australia the $114B would make.


Wmk2

[nomorecatering]

I live in regional Victoria and would walk over hot coals to be able to have a 30 min train trip to melb or 50 min trip to Albury. 2 hrs to Sydney huh.....where do I buy my ticket. When I go to Syd by the rat, its 3 hrs just to get down to melb, park the car, jump on the bus, check in and get my butt on the seat in the 737.

High speed rail radiating from the capital cities is vital, as is high speed rail linking capital cities. If this proposal kicks off, Shepparton will go gang busters, as will Albury and all the stops in between. Finally living in the country and working in the city will be viable.

I have travelled all over japan on the Bullet train, France on the TGV and Germany on ze very fast train. It opens up the regional areas like nothing else. Had an interesting chat with a German on a train one day out of Fankfourt, he was complain how his line had to put up with the sub standard (slow) trains that only did a measely 200km/h. he nearly had a heart attack whe I told hime the average speed of our Shepparton to Melb train( 110 km/h ...occasionally).

So bring the high speed train on....with all haste.

[nitpicker330]

Who says its gunna stop?
Takes a bit to get a train up to 300 km/h and I can't imagine they would want to stop much?

[aroa]

NMC...BUT... consider the size of the countries yr talking about and the populations. Small and very big respectively.
And dear OZ...its trouble is its too bloody BIG and the population is small.
Melbourne to Brisbane is like Madrid to Moscow and on to the Siberian gulags even.
We are in run down to an election..and Oz / all pollies are famous for big talk before and do nothing after if elected.
And as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow the current mob will be swept aside ...so any BS forthcoming now is totally meaningless.

How about Albo just buy every country town a Cessna Citation or such like so folk can whizz into the capital city in an hour or so. Very efficient.:ok:

Recent Dept Transport costing in QLD quoted a rail ticket to Roma ? is subsidized/costs the taxpayer, to the tune of $2500..! You can get an around the world air fare for less.!!
Taxpayers dollars should be efficiently spent by bureaurats, not chucked around like confetti.
Keep going the way we are and it will all end in tears.:{

[Frank Arouet]

If God had meant for man to go from Sydney to Canberra by land in one hour he would have given him wings.

[PA39]

Albo won't be aroung at the end of July....pud puller!!

[LeadSled]

One sure bet is that any estimates put forward by Albanese would be even more rubbery than Swans Budget estimates.Folks,
That would be the understatement of the week. Even if you were to take these figures "presented" seriously, ( and if you do, you must be be smoking some really good sh1t, where can I get some) the claimed a rate of return of 0.8% -- even if the input figures were accurate, 0.8% is within the area of uncertainty for even a properly costed project that will only cover a period of 2-3 years.

40 years ?? That is "call the men in the white coats" stuff.

In assessing the cost/benefit of any significant project, you have to discount claims by a factor known as "proponent bias" ---- ie; reduce the value of the claimed benefits, and increase the claimed costs, as just part of the workings of a proper cost/benefit analysis.

Our dearly beloved CASA is a world champion when it comes to proponent bias on cost/benefit analysis.

Tail Wheel, with a few specialist exceptions, like the French post trains, all the high speed rail I know of run on dedicated lines, not mixed lines. Even the InterCity 125s in UK have their own dedicated lines --- the whatever they are called fastest trains in NSW are based on these UK trains, but, in the old money, instead of cruising ay 125-135 mph, in NSW they rarely reach 60mph, and there are lots 20-30 mph restrictions --- in fact more restricted than unrestricted.

It is crazy that the train timetable Sydney-Newcastle is now slower than in 1948, thanks to lots of sever speed limits on deteriorated track.

T-28D is on the money, I think part of Labor's place in the opinion polls is the general populous is not stupid, and don't much appreciate being treated as if they are as thick as two short planks.

I do not know of any HS Rail network that is not Government ( you and me, the mug taxpayers) subsidized, the European subsidies are huge, despite the population density.

A better comparison would be Amtrak in the US, given the greater US distances (don't forget, western Europe more or less fits into Victoria and NSW) and the lower than European population densities, even though much greater than Australia, you cannot sustain a truly honest argument for HS rail down the US east coast corridor, let alone the rest of the country.

As Mr. Boeing says, 3000m of rail gets you 3000m, 3000m of runway gets you anywhere.

In fact, the total seat mile costs and energy consumption costs per seat mile (this is the bit the Greenies hate) are highly competitive with even "highish" speed rail, and usually beat genuine HS rail. As for the environment, it is only the nuclear powered grid in France that shows a "green" benefit over air, and somehow I can't see our Greens fervently promoting a major nuclear power generation program to make electric rail "green".

Tootle pip!!

[PLovett]

May I suggest that most of you crawl out of the dark holes that your ignorance on the subject has caused you to dig (not that that is any impediment to commentary on PPRuNe) and read todays offering from Ben Sandilands. It may give cause to some of you to think.

HSR: The fast train that must take decades | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/04/13/hsr-the-fast-train-that-must-take-decades/)

[Flying Binghi]

via PLovett;

May I suggest that most of you crawl out of the dark holes that your ignorance on the subject has caused you to dig (not that that is any impediment to commentary on PPRuNe) and read todays offering from Ben Sandilands. It may give cause to some of you to think...


Hmmm... I "think" Sandilands should stick to writing about aircraft. His writing on trains is as muddle headed as his writing on global warming..:hmm:







.

[DynaBolt]

Mmmm....can' make a decision on a second airport so we will build a new train set...wow impressive..
Dynabolt

[curiousflyer]

The same time that Albanese was making these annoucing this, the latest jobs figures were being announced.

Cynics would say this was all smoke and mirrors to distract from that rather gloomy news. 40 years to build? It won't happen but it will definately steal headlines.