Negative G help

[tobster911]

Hello,

I do some glider flying, and I feel I'm getting closer and closer to going solo, however, the one thing I need to do is sort out my negative G reactions...

When we do the pushovers, and just entering -ve G, I have a kind of panic attack, and I know that I can't get solo if I can't do strong(ish) G maneuvers (incorrect spelling? sorry) comfortably...

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I can get more used to this and be able to control my silly reactions?

Thank you

T

[Fuji Abound]

From a powered point of view sorry to say I am afraid there isn't an easy answer.

If you are "just" worried from the point of view of the glider surviving all I can say is there will be a very healthy margin between the approved G limits and those the glider is actually capable off - it will not fall apart.

If you are worried for yourself, negative G tolerance only comes with pulling G and is lost, if not quite as quickly, when you stop. Obviously being in good physical shape really does help a lot.

I wish there was a simple answer and if anyone else has one I would love to hear it.

[foxmoth]

F900 has it nearly right, but do not over tighten your shoulder straps. It is the lap straps that hold you in the seat and certainly for serious negative these should be as tight as you can possibly get them, shoulder harness basically stops your body moving forward and hitting the panel and this should just be comfortably tight or you compress your chest and it can make things worse if you are feeling airsick.
I suspect the truth is though that you are not experiencing negative G, that is unusual in normal operations but reduced positive G can still be unsettling and even here being properly strapped in will help.

[Cobalt]

This can be a difficult one, depending how bad your "panic" is.

I once had a student that flew ok, but panicked to the point of complete inability to do anything useful when experiencing turbulence and low G (let alone negative G). Examples included him hugging me when a wing dropped in a stalling exercise (very amusing) or completely letting go of all controls and bracing himself against the airframe when encountering a slight gust on short final (not amusing at all).

Together with the CFI, I developed a programme to make him [more] comfortable with this, starting with low-G pushovers to zero G and then unusual attitude recoveries until he was competent and, while not comfortable, well in control at all times. That took several hours of flying.

A few sorties later, something else [not low G related] spooked him so badly that he again lost it, so sadly in his case the problem was not low-G, but a propensity to panic to the point he could not control his actions [he couldn't even taxi the aircraft!]

As a flying school, we felt that was something we were not qualified to resolve, so we strongly suggested we stop wasting his money, which he did.


Based on that experience, I would say that it all depends on how bad your "panic" is, and if there is anything else that could trigger it.

If it is just low-G, perhaps focused training around that could help [it worked in that case]. That will require longer sorties, so if that is not possible in a glider, perhaps try it in a motorglider or - gasp - powered aircraft [go on, they are not all evil]...

[riverrock83]

It might be worth doing some aerobatic appreciation (glider or powered) to really see where the limits are. Most basic aero manoeuvres are positive G however...
-ve G is an odd sensation - something you don't often encounter but as has been said before - keep your lower straps tight to stop you moving and it shouldn't be a scary experience once you get used to the sensations.

[Prazum]

I just did the lap belt up tighter. The feeling of being strapped in does help :)

[hvogt]

tobster911

Anxiety is a very well known phenomenon and every pilot has at least heard about fellow pilots who once had problems in that region and overcame them. I've seen people who just didn't like the acceleration, be it negative or positive, in the beginning, just kept on flying and never again had any problems, and others who took professional advice that eventually did the trick for them.

The previous posters have already mentioned very much depends on the level of your discomfort. Please bear in mind you can always get professional help from aeromedical personnel or your instructors.

What helped me to become reasonably indifferent towards small negative Gs is some piece of advice I remember having once picked up from an interview with an aerobatics pilot. I think it might have been Patty Wagstaff, but I'm not sure. The advice was to keep your abdominal muscles relaxed and not try to work against the negative Gs. Most of us will remember from our childhood days how much we enjoyed swinging. The magnitude of negative acceleration on a swing is comparable to what you encounter during non-aerobatic flight. From this comparison you will see negative Gs do not hurt, they didn't when we were children on a swing and they do not hurt in an aircraft either.

[Fuji Abound]

Rather assumed about the straps which was very dangerous and very good advice indeed if they were not tight. It makes a huge difference. In my experience you should feel really snuggled into the seat.

You have probably been told about head and eye movements and this can also help.

[Prazum]

I just did the lap belt up tighter. The feeling of being strapped in does help :)

[FullWings]

One of the most experienced instructors in gliding (Derek Piggott) has several theories about negative-g sensitivity, having seen it in a proportion of his students. It might be mentioned in some of his books.

When you say: "the one thing I need to do is sort out my negative G reactions", do you mean you find -ve g unpleasant or that you react in an uncontrollable manner to low/-ve g by doing things with the controls that don't help the situation, e.g. pushing forward?

If you're experiencing the latter, go to a senior instructor/CFI/coach immediately and explain your problem before flying again. If you get reduced-g near to the ground and have an involuntary reaction to it, things could go badly for you, your P1 and the glider.

[chrisN]

I believe that what might help is specific exercises with you doing the controls, not the instructor; and to start with, just doing very gentle pushovers until you feel comfortable with that level of slightly reduced g. Then progress to a bit more until you are comfortable with that. Etc. etc. Most people seem able to acclimatise gradually with repeated experiences.

The worst thing is to have an instructor do it to you, and to do it with so much reduced g that you cannot stand it. I do not think you will ever acclimatise to it that way, and it will be a totally dispiriting experience which will condition you to hate it.

It is essential that you can cope with, and distinguish between, stalling and negative g. People who couldn't have died.

If you cannot crack it, flying is not for you – you will be a menace to yourself and anyone you fly with if you panic.

I agree with the tight strap advice – it should help you to feel secure.

Just my 2p’th.

Chris N

[effortless]

I wonder if it isn't a physiological problem. I have always coped badly with negative g. One of the feelings was in fact a pit of the stomach sort of foreboding feeling. I get this when I have stomach problems too. All too often now I'm an overweight old fart. Some people just don't tolerate it so well. I was one of those though experience did help me cope with it. There are so many things in flying that are uncomfortable that we just have to grim out. I was bilious for my first few take offs. It wore off but now I don't fly very often at all it has come back. Concentration on the task in hand does help.

[thing]

I would have thought that repeated exposure to it would help although I'm not an expert. I would have to agree with a couple of posters who have said that if it's at the point where it's dangerous and you've explored every avenue then may be sadly flying isn't for you. No point throwing considerable sums of loot at something that's probably going to be money down the drain. However, do bring this up with your instructors and do try what they say first, you might find there's a way that works for you.

[what next]

...then may be sadly flying isn't for you.

Please! Don't tell young aspiring pilots such things. I don't like negative Gs either (I don't get panic attacks, but for me it is very unpleasant) and have happily flown for over 35 years now. Gliding included. I can't remember ever having had to do a "pushover" with real negative Gs. Just under zero-G was always sufficient.

[thing]

I'm not telling him to pack it up!:) I did say explore every avenue but be prepared for the fact that maybe you have a long term problem that may effect your ability to fly safely, in which case a serious think ought to be done. I sincerely hope that he overcomes his problem, and with the right help most probably will. However be prepared for all outcomes.

[mary meagher]

when you are experiencing negative g, who has control? As you are learning in gliders, practicing interesting maneuovers is best done at altitude....both spins and negative g. I think negative g is enormous fun, first you do a bit of a dive, then pull up and keeping flying speed, push over, and enjoy rising up in your seat (of course the straps are snug enough so you don't wack the canopy with your head.)
And all the dust and grass clippings rise up around you. If YOU HAVE CONTROL, it's fun. If the instructor is demonstrating, it's more like torture.

Likewise, with the spin and recovery, I think half a turn is plenty, to diagnose the spin and recover, in a K13, whereas some instructors think that a couple of turns is required, they put it in a full spin and hand it to you and say now recover! that teaches nothing at all, to feel a spin you should put it in the spin yourself.

Worth taking an aerotow on a good soaring day, climb to 3 or 4 thousand feet and just mess around in a K13. The more you do yourself the better you will enjoy being in control. Have fun! don't worry about solo. That comes when it comes.

[Sensible Flyer]

Did my spin checks one year off a winch launch. The nutter in the back seat held it in for at least 2 full turns, maybe more. It seemed like a very long time and I started to panic as the trees began to loom large in the canopy.
Then a very calm "Recover", which I did. "That's what the picture looks like 2 seconds before you die". He felt it necessary to do it that way, his argument being nobody ever dies spinning at 3,000' and that you need to know you can cope with the stress.

I made sure I found another instructor to do my spin checks the following year!

[Fly-by-Wife]

Sounds very like an instructor at Lasham I had many years ago.

Just before sending me solo, he pulled the cable at 900' and then kept the stick BACK with a boot of left rudder! It felt as if we went beyond the vertical before spinning down. Leveled out downwind at about 400', easy circuit and then went solo on the next launch.

As you can surmise, it left an indelible impression!

FBW

[mary meagher]

Exactly my point, fly by wife! The instructor put it in the spin, scared the **** out of you, and then the blankety blank got out of the glider and you were not unhappy to fly on you own, without that B. in the back seat putting you through all kinds of horror. Memorable, yes, but nowadays The low spin is not NOT RECOMMENDED. The low spin, entered into without recognition, on final turn, usually leads to a Final Turn. If you don't put it in the spin yourself, you won't recognise it. Those few who have survived the classic fatal scenario usually complain "I thought there was something wrong with the elevator!"

Yes, the elevator did not work in the normal sense!@££$$%%. ~It won't keep the nose up if you pull back on the stick when stalled. But move the stick forward, and a happy landing is still possible.

As those Air France pilots who managed to keep the stick hard back all the way down to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean didn't understand.....

[Jonzarno]

As you can surmise, it left an indelible impression!

On the seat? :O

[tobster911]

Thank you Very Much for all these pointers... I don't panic to the point I can't control the aircraft, and I recover safely, i.e build up speed before pulling back etc, so, I don't think I'm dangerous, it's just the sensation of effectively falling that I don't like... Next time I go, I shall ensure I'm strapped in tightly (quite difficult with a parachute on).

Thank you

Regards


T

[Crash one]

We used to muck about playing with it, trying to get a pencil to float in front of your eyes, spacecraft fashion. It takes your mind off it till you get more used to it.