Medical Suspended Indefinitely - CPL Holder

[flvckoflyer]

Hi Guys,

We all dread it, and unfortunately it has become something of a reality. My medical has been suspended due to a recent spell of Migraine's (aura). I'm reasonably optimistic of overcoming these by eliminating triggers, diet, exercise etc. but in the interim, I am left with a CPL, in the cold.

So from this point, I am looking to stay relevant within the industry, or in the worst case scenario, forge an alternative career path.

I'm essentially looking for advice, insight, options etc. of putting my CPL to use, and developing within, preferably, a technical role. I would really love to get a foot in as an Operations or Load Controller, but am somewhat in the dark as to how or where. I have considered ATC in the past few days, but don't feel as though it is aligned with my direction. For what it is worth, I'm Melbourne based.

Appreciative of any replies in advance

[Jack Ranga]

How old are you?

[flvckoflyer]

Mid twenties mate.

[Capt Fathom]

Get yourself a good doctor!

Your Licence/Medical is the least of your problems!

Get our health back in order, and your License/Medical will follow.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Ah yes well you see.... where you went wrong is you admitted something.

That's the IQ component of the medical.

I'm nursing a drug habit, a heart condition, childhood athsma, migranes, alcoholism, erectile dysfunction, a funny tingling sensation in one toe and a bit of a limp.

And alcoholism.

But I still have a Class 1.

Deny, deny, deny. :=

[Jack Ranga]

You've got loads of options :ok: And Fathom's right, I've got one student who's taking CASA to VCAT over his medical, he'll win. I've got another student who did a bit of research and found a Cardiologist who's aware of CASA's tactics, he got his medical back. You're too young to be letting them decide your future!

[flvckoflyer]

Haha, sure it'd be naive to think that most of us aren't hiding something in the closet, but this was more a genuine concern towards my health, and overall safety when flying if an when one was to occur.

I become more or less incapacitated during, with a large chunk of my central and/or peripheral vision being impaired, following by significant confusion etc. Whilst they are irregular and few and far between (3-4 a year), the possibility of suffering one, particularly in Single Pilot Ops becomes the stuff of nightmares. Have read of various airliners being impacted by a Flight Crew member going down with one.

[Old Akro]

I think you might need to lawyer up. Its certainly a time (both professionally & personally) to get the very best medical advice you can. This will inevitably be a specialist.

Get the best medical advice you can. Fully investigate it. Do whatever tests you need. Figure out a treatment regime. Involve CASA only after you have it sorted. They are not here to help.

CASA has taken down the old (useful) DAME handbook and put up something bland and of little use as a guideline. I'd study the FAA one and see what drugs can be used.

Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/special_iss/all_classes/migraine/)

The CASA medical group is difficult to deal with. You are going to need the biggest gorilla you can find (ie a specialist with impeccable credentials) to do battle with CASA combined with a good DAME who will go into battle for you. Make no mistake, it will be a battle. But, if you get your health stable and the drugs required are not too bad, you should give it a go.

My advice would be to do as much investigation of your syndrome outside the CASA system and go back into the CASA system only after you have it sorted.

Migranes are not well understood. You may spend years looking for triggers and never find them. It is even possible that its just a stress related episode. I'd do some reading. Look for US not-for-profits and the Mayo clinic as starting points.

[VH-XXX]

Lets be brutally honest.

You have a medical problem and a potentially serious one and we are all talking about AAT / suing CASA, specialists etc!

There's a reason why they don't want you flying an aircraft right now.

I applaud your approach of finding what is actually wrong and setting up yourself with some alternatives in the mean time. Smart thinking.

Perhaps try AMCO at Virgin or similar although not sure if they are still running that out of Melbourne now. Your experience may help you a little.

Good luck and I hope you get to the bottom of it.

[poonpossum]

I knew a guy who successfully helped someone get their medical back after they lost an eye. Pretty awesome story that was.

[Go West]

Get better, go to another doc, get your medical back and never tell anyone your a pilot. Especially a doc.

Also always go to a doc that is way less fit than you. Overweight, drinking problem, high blood pressure and smokes. There are plenty around.

Good luck. I am being serious.

[Unusual-Attitude]

I've always used two Dr's, one for genuine ailments, the other for class 1's.

And just like wives and girl friends, never let them meet!

That little stamped piece of expensive paper is easy to loose, and nigh on impossible to get back once lost.

A not so bright friend slipped in the bath and knocked himself out for literally just a few minutes, he went to his Doc, (who was also his avmed examiner). Doc wrote out report mentioning head injury involving loss of consciousness and concussion. Medical 'temporarily' pulled. I think that was 2 yrs ago, and casa are still waiting to see 'proof' that he'll never have an epileptic episode?!? :ugh:

Like Old Akro said, they're not here to help, and certainly not practical or, it seems sensible. And as is the CASA way, you're 'guilty' until you prove yourself innocent, or in this case, fit to fly, by their definition of the term.

Best of luck getting better. And the same for getting your medical back.

[Eastern_Skyjets]

its in CASA's best intrest to keep everyone flying - however if you yourself think its a risk then perhaps try and cure yourself then see what happens.

[Sunfish]

Just be aware what the motivation of CASA is in this matter; they don't give a flying **** about you or the general public either.

What the medical group cares about is the very large boot up the backside they will get if the morning paper runs the headline "Passengers terrified when pilot blacks out" because the Minister doesn't like headlines.

Their only defence is "we tried to take his medical away but the AAT made us give it back!"

First get a specialists opinion and develop a treatment plan if required. I read somewhere that there is a pill that can be taken if the sufferer recognises the onset of a migraine, so perhaps that might help your case, but you and your specialist must both be sure that you have a real remedy. Don't try to con CASA or anyone else.

[PLovett]

Listen to VH-XXX and give a flying F to all those who recommend covering up the issue with CASA. :mad: I am sure you don't want to be the schmuk who takes a plane load of pax down with him when that migraine turns out to be something more catastrophic. :ugh:

I have had a couple of medical issues over the past few years, all of which have been sorted out with the assistance of the appropriate medical specialists. I have never hidden the issues from CASA, in fact, they were revealed during the annual medical (another benefit from having a licence given the average Oz males rate of having an annual medical). In all cases the support staff at CASA were excellent at advising me where the issue was with the medical advisory group and as soon as the medical was renewed they emailed me a copy of the decision immediately. :ok:

Get that medical issue sorted. You need to know that it is not a major issue far more than you need a pilots licence. There are no second chances with your life. Good luck with it. ;)

[Creampuff]

Deny, deny, deny.I've always used two Dr's, one for genuine ailments, the other for class 1's.I’d be very, very careful about saying those kinds of things too loudly, lest the regulator hears about it and does some digging.

There are some questions on the AVMED application form that you must be answering falsely. That’s a very, very big risk to take.

[hiwaytohell]

I agree with PLovett and XXX... if you have a medical condition you should get it attended to not covered up. Anyone who suggests you hide it is a bloody idiot.

If you're sick you should not be flying. This much you owe to your pax and others.

Years ago I had a pilot working for me with a serious inner ear problem, who kept it a secret. He ended up scaring half of the customers he flew and ended up costing us a couple of our best clients. Thankfully he did not kill anyone.

Anyway he ended up in CASA. Seriously!

So in addition to operations & ATC, which are pretty competitive, don't rule out CASA.

Also ground training, go and see the folks at the various TAFEs in Melbourne that do aviation studies.

Talk to the airports... having a CPL makes for a good basis for aerodrome works reporting & safety officers.

I also know several guys that for various reasons that did not go on with their CPLs get successful careers as refuellers and cabin crew, which have less stringent medical requirements.

Just don't bull**** about your health.

[Old Akro]

In all cases the support staff at CASA were excellent

Unfortunately the line of pilots with your experience is very short compared with the line of pilots with the opposite experience. There is nothing about CASA that seeks to act in the best interests of the pilot.

Some years ago Stan Tilley wrote an excellent (and brave) article for one of the magazines about his experience dealing with CASA. The thing is that most pilots who have grief with CASA do not speak up, because it means revealing their medical issue.

Our you CPL said his issue is recent spell of Migraine's . There is no suggestion in his post that it is a chronic issue. It may still be transitory, or it may be controllable with allowable drugs & lifestyle changes. Its far too early to be writing off his career.

I maintain that this is a time to assertively investigate this issue with the best specialists you can find. This may still be an episodic attack due to something in your life. Migranes have huge variation. They don't necessarily involve pain, nor are bad headache's necessarily migranes.

There is nothing transparent, objective or consistent about the CASA medical group. You only need to go online and read the Australian DAME manual vs the FAA one to get a sense of this. I would encourage you to do this and learn as much as you can.

I would still recommend you treat this like its going to be a battle. Its better to do that and be pleasantly surprised if its easy than the other way around. There is a strong chance you'll need a fist full of specialist (probably neurologist) letters to present to CASA, so you might as well start seeing one of the heavy hitters now who can work up your history.

I still maintain you should go to CASA when you have the solution - not when you only have the problem. They can issue a suspension with the flick of a pen that might take 18 months of solid effort to undo. If you can find Stan Tilleys article, it illustrates this point. My experience echoes this and my DAME mates will privately give the same advice.

[peterc005]

My experience is that if your problem is something "out of the box", junior CASA staff get overly cautious and can be a pain.

I got messed around for months getting my medical back after LASIK surgery. A courteous call to a supervisor in the relevant CASA section had my medical restored after a 15 minute explanation over the phone.

The CASA woman I spoke to knew her stuff, and being a supervisor just sorted it out on the spot. She was helpful and a pleasure to deal with.

Always be polite and patient dealing with CASA, use email as much as possible for the paper-trail, and try and get past the front line staff to deal with the more senior ones for tricky issues.

[truthinbeer]

flvckoflyer, I hope you are well atm. Migraines can be induced by many, many external initiators. I hope your dr sent you immediately for a brain CT? If not get a new dr. It is more common to get migraines and grow out of them as you get older (if you are lucky) than to suddenly start getting them once an adult. You need to find that trigger and get your health sorted out. No point only having half a life because of this sinister afflication.

[Avgas172]

I'm nursing a drug habit, a heart condition, childhood athsma, migranes, alcoholism, erectile dysfunction, a funny tingling sensation in one toe and a bit of a limp.


Gees leafy, Whats your nickname arount the Ramp ..... Lucky ? :E

[flvckoflyer]

Plenty of gratitude towards all the advice, feedback and support, really appreciated and valued.

Given the nature of the migraines, it would have been irresponsible and dangerous towards myself and others, to have continued flying whilst facing the risk of suffering an onset, mid-flight. As few and far between, central and peripheral vision distortion, disorientation and a temporary inability to process or comprehend words all make for a terrifying prospect. A CAT scan has me cleared on any physical concerns, it is almost certainly a result of lifestyle, hereditary and external factors.

Until then, I am positively trying to take a step in a relevant step, within the industry. A couple of suggestions, but are there any more specific options? Am certainly open to further study, depending on the time frame, and certainly happy to spend time overseas.

Again, thanks to all for support and feedback. Cheers.

[Unusual-Attitude]

Creamy, I've never lied on a medical questionairre, and I'm pretty sure there's no law against anyone seeing whom so ever they want as far as general medical practitioners go.

[T28D]

In 2009 I had a contretemps with Avmed over a letter from my DAME that they had mis filed and they got quite difficult producing a series of orders for the disclosure of my complete medical history which was supplied.

Anyone who believes there is any form of suppressing medical history by using multiple doctors needs to be very aware of the consequences which are severe.

In my case the complete history solved the issue and the matter was put to rest, but I can assure you all it was not a pleasant experience and I certainly don't want to do it again.

As an aside my DAME is also my G.P. which is on the whole a much smarter way to operate than multiple practicioners where mis understandings can raise unwarranted intrusion into your life.

[pithblot]

flvckoflyer, you've got a good attitude concerning this difficult situation. I hope it all works out well for you.

I understand your desire to continue in aviation. But, in your mid twenties, this event represents a great opportunity to change career, find some new interests and work on your health. You may well find it easier to get ahead financially in another occupation, probably more job security and less stress outside aviation too, which will help in restoring your health.

My suggestion is not to fight CASA. Be grateful for the flying you've done, close your log book and walk away. This will save you an awful lot of angst.

Eventually, when your health is restored, you can take up flying again.

Also, in your mid twenties, you are still young enough to get a work visa overseas. Maybe a working holiday while you consider your options?

All the best :ok:

[Unusual-Attitude]

The regs are pretty clear under part 67...and most of us know when we shouldn't be flying, (even without the aid of a medical degree), and if it's serious, then i agree, your class 1 is the least of your problems, and you need to get it sorted and if it grounds you for more than 7 days, you've no choice anyway.

My point is, I've known more than a few well meaning, generally newly qualified pilots who've thought they were doing the right thing by making Casa aware of a minor issue before consulting their DAME, only to find themselves grounded whilst 'further [generally lengthy] assessment' is carried out, possibly losing them their job, and then, forever after, causing them untold hassles with renewals.

I guess the key is to get a good practical DAME and let them make the call, then if you do end up getting grounded, at least it's for a good reason, not just because someone's covering their arse.

[Old Akro]

Buy & read " What colour is your parachute" by Richard Bolles

[Creampuff]

Creamy … I'm pretty sure there's no law against anyone seeing whom so ever they want as far as general medical practitioners go.

I’m pretty sure you are right.

But that wasn’t my point.

In your first post you said:I've always used two Dr's, one for genuine ailments, the other for class 1's.

And just like wives and girl friends, never let them meet!

That little stamped piece of expensive paper is easy to loose, and nigh on impossible to get back once lost.The scenario you then gave was:A not so bright friend slipped in the bath and knocked himself out for literally just a few minutes, he went to his Doc, (who was also his avmed examiner). Doc wrote out report mentioning head injury involving loss of consciousness and concussion. Medical 'temporarily' pulled. I think that was 2 yrs ago, and casa are still waiting to see 'proof' that he'll never have an epileptic episode?!?I understood your point to be that if your not so bright friend had gone to a different Doctor than his AVMED examiner, to deal with the consequences of being knocked unconscious, he would not have had his medical ‘pulled’.

Of course, that can’t be correct, if your friend fills out his renewal applications truthfully. He would have had to declare the event in which he was knocked unconscious (just as you have to declare all of the ‘genuine ailments’ for which you’ve consulted any Doctor), in the application for renewal of the Certificate. The AVMED examiner would have made the same decision. Maybe a difference in timing, but same end result.

Fortunately your not so bright friend was apparently still bright enough to consult directly with the person with expertise in AVMED.

Perhaps I misunderstood your point?

[Unusual-Attitude]

Fortunately your not so bright friend was apparently still bright enough to consult directly with the person with expertise in AVMED

Bright enough...maybe. Grounded still...most certainly. And any prospect of getting his medical, (and livelyhood) back anytime soon...remote.

It just seems to me that in this litigous environment we now find ourselves, the 'punishment' hardly fits the 'crime', and it all smacks of arse covering rather than actual or probable outcomes.

He's had many physicians attest to him being no more likely after this amount of time to have any problems in the future...but...still he has to wait, and will probably continue to wait.

[Creampuff]

That’s a different point.

If the AVMED standards are unnecessarily high or the certifiers unnecessarily risk-averse, the answer is to change the standards or the certifiers. If that’s not practicable, your friend will unfortunately have to wait.

[Unusual-Attitude]

I don't think it's a different point at all.

If a relatively minor injury/ailment can spell the end of your career, (and i'm not specifically refering to the case I mentioned), either in the short or long term, people will be less likely to want to bring it to the attention of the 'powers that be', which im certainly not advocating, but which, having spoken to many over the years, and echo'd by some on this thread, is the reality.

I seem to remember they once had risk probability figures which were the basis upon which decisions about various injuries/illnesses were made. To say they erred on the side of extreme caution (bordering the ridiculous) would be an understatement. The question you have to ask is...is it based on protecting the safety of the flying public, or to cover their arse?

I suspect the answer to that depends upon your own past experiences and/or your level of cynicism, given how other matters of 'safety' are routinely handled.

[drogue chute]

Mate, it's not the end of the world. I recently had a similar occurrence - migraine, loss of central vision etc. I told CASA about it (I had no intention of flying without being confident it would never happen in flight) and was grounded for 6 months while I became a lab rat for anyone and everyone who ever went to medical school. A bit of medication experimentation and observation followed, but end result - I was cleared to fly again with a multi crew restriction on my license and must provide yearly neurologist reports.
I had a REALLY good DAME on my side and I really have to admit that once CASA actually looked at my case it didn't take long for them to deal with it. I can't complain about the way they treated me all things considered (of course I did squeal like a stuffed pig about it at the time!).
In fact I'd have to say they acted really professionally.
PM me if you want any advice as to the path I followed etc.

[Old Fella]

I realise that this forum is often used by some as a "pissing competition" but if those whom advocate continuing to fly whilst knowing, or believing, they may suffer an incapacitating event are even vaguely serious it is an absolutely unacceptable position to take.

It does not matter whether you are multi-crew or single pilot, to not report or admit to a medical condition which could mean withdrawl of your licence priveleges is a dereliction of duty. Would those who disagree want their family members being flown around by a pilot who may suffer incapacitation and cause the loss of an aircraft and occupants? I think not. Flvckoflyer is to be commended for his honesty and his responsible attitude toward what most believe to be an honourable occupation.

[kabukiman]

This is interesting and relevant to myself, I'm PPL studying my CPL stuff and early 20s

I have done a class 1 medical and passed (when I started training, and I was much less fit than I am now 2 years on)

I suffered migraines/cluster headaches as a child, and growing up, but less often. I still get bad headaches and sometimes migraines but they are relatively rare

These days I get very advanced and fair warning that one will happen, that is, I recognise symptoms before the pain and subsequent incapacitation kick in and rarely actually experience them as I get in early (I'll take pain killers or have a nap or a coffee or something which usually stops them developing). They aren't as strong these days either so pain killers that are compatible with flying (no analgesics) work fine for me.

My regular GP has treated me since I was little and said they should be of no concern these days. I did mention headaches to my DAME when I did my medical (perhaps stupidly... I did not know CASA was so anal about migraines and the like back then, I was just curious) and he was happy they weren't a problem if they didn't have the ability to incapacitate.

Talk to your GP or a DAME about it. Maybe identify triggers for them and try and eliminate them, change your diet, drink lots of water, get some exercise in and most importantly (IME): Sleep well! It helps a lot

*Edit reading the second page of the thread... it may be hereditary, mine were. If you can get on top of them I don't see why you couldn't do your medical again and maybe get a reference from your GP clearing you? Good luck whatever you do, you defintiely have the right attitude.

[Old Akro]

F Flyer.

Read this:

EAA News - FAA Announces Change in Special Issuance Medical Certification (http://eaa.org/news/2013/2013-04-11_FAA-announces-change-in-special-issuance-medical-certification.asp)

[flvckoflyer]

As the months elapse, I am still out in the cold so to speak, with next to no opportunities or prospects presenting.

It is becoming demoralizing being confined to hospitality type work, and whilst I have submitted an application to Jet* as an Assistant Flight Dispatcher in Melbourne, I have minimal optimism due to my lack of experience.

Any insight, advice or direction would be warmly welcomed.

Thanks in advance.

[peterc005]

Two suggestions:

1) Have you thought about training as an ATC?

2) I had problems over a couple of months getting my medical reissued by CASA after LASIK surgery.

The way I got in the end was making a few phone calls to the medical section of CASA. Eventually I got past the first level of junior staff who have no idea and onto a supervisor who sorted out my medical on the spot. The woman supervisor in the medical section of CASA knew her stuff, and after months of waiting and a fifteen minute phone call my new medical was in the mail.

Always be polite and patient with CASA, but try to get past the initial gatekeepers to the more senior people behind them who have more experience and discretion.

Find excuses to speak with different people at the medical section of CASA. Be friendly and chat with them. Send emails outlining your history and what you want.

Ask lots of questions (politely), as this might be a good way to get past the juniors and make an excuse for more contact. With a bit of luck these questions might be answered with a path to getting your medical back.

[Old Akro]

Buy & read " What colour is your parachute" by Richard Bolles

It is the best most pragmatic book on doing a skills audit and structuring a job seeking programme.

[flvckoflyer]

Peterc005 - Have considered training for ATC mate, but all things considered, would much prefer being involved in aircraft operations, load control, technical type roles.

Old Akro - Appreciate the suggestion and will do.

Thanks guys.