SEP REVAL/RENEWAL FORMS

[justmaybe]

I appreciate some discussion has taken place previously on this topic, but just trying to consolidate current position and latest reference. The FEH indicates that for SEP revalidations Forms SRG 1119 should be used, but at appendix 11 there is an indication that form SRG 2199 should be used. Last I heard was that SRG 1157 replaced 1119 and should be used for revals/renewals by LPC and Experience. Any pointers (with up-to-date ref) would be appreciated.

[Level Attitude]

SRG1157 is required for all Revalidations/Renewals and it says on it
what other Forms may be required.

- Revalidation by Experience - None
- Revalidation by LPC - None if Pass, SRG2129 if Fail

Renewals:
No Examiner may Test unless there is confirmation from
an ATO that any required training has been completed.
This is usually SRG1107 which just needs to be seen by
Examiner and is not sent to CAA, but kept by ATO

Rating expired less than 3 years (Examiner signs Rating Page)
- Pass = SRG1157 only
- Fail = SRG1157 plus SRG 2129

Rating expired by more than 3 years (Examiner cannot sign Rating page)
- Pass = SRG1157 plus SRG 1119
(plus, possibly, applying for an EASA Licence)
- Fail = SRG1157 plus SRG 2129

[justmaybe]

Thanks LA.
Pretty much my understanding. It is both frustrating and annoying that not only has this process become an unnecessary administrative minefield, but the CAA can't keep their own guidance docs up to date. This is the nonsense that breeds the so called requirement for the Examiner Seminars!!:*

[BEagle]

The CAA has now accepted that its pilot licensing forms are overcomplicated and unreasonably burdensome.

You can anticipate a wholesale revision of the forms in the near future. In addition, there will be guidance which, for example, will gives precise instructions as to which forms are needed for which purpose.

Or so they've said.....

[Whopity]

Perhaps they could use the general purpose forms provided for them in the AMC; after all that's what they are for, standardised European forms!

[belowradar]

I am wondering about the requirement for anyone who missed the date of SEP reval and who needs a renewal flight check

As an RF I can continue as before until next April and do not need to be an ATO at present

The pilot now apparently requires training at an ATO and sign off prior to renewal flight

So yes there is a new requirement but surely logic dictates that a Rf can sign off training until ATO mandatory

Grey area I know but logical ? Completed training form is not sent to CAA so can sit in filing cabinet - everyone happy. I really do think that as Examiners we need to start applying some common sense to this nonsense

My thoughts are that CAA are in a mess with this as evidenced by the awful implementation and that if I sign off both forms common sense prevails

Comments and views welcomed

[Whopity]

As an RF I can continue as before until next April and do not need to be an ATO at present Yes, the CAA omitted to include RF in the IN but confirmed to some of those who asked that this is the case. In any case its April 2015 not 2014.

The pilot now apparently requires training at an ATO and sign off prior to renewal flightThere is no mandated requirement for training, only an assessment, and then on completion of whatever the ATO or RF decides, a Course Completion certificate. This may involve no training at all!

Completed training form is not sent to CAA so can sit in filing cabinetUnder Part FCL all records must be retained for 5 years.

[Mickey Kaye]

"Perhaps they could use the general purpose forms provided for them in the AMC; after all that's what they are for, standardised European forms!"

Yes you would have thought so wouldn't you. Why reinvent the wheel?

Would I be correct in thinking I could submit those very forms to the CAA and that they would have to except them?

[BillieBob]

Under Part FCL all records must be retained for 5 years.Not quite. Certain training records and information on licences and associated ratings and certificates of students must be kept for 3 years. Compliance monitoring records must be kept for 5 years.

[belowradar]

Thanks WHOPPITY that is good news

Is there a template for the "Training Course Completion Certificate" or can I issue my own in my own format ?

[Treadstone1]

Level Attitude

Revalidation by experience...what about form 1119E?

Brgds

[Level Attitude]

Level Attitude

Revalidation by experience...what about form 1119E?

Brgds

- Flight Examiners Handbook - 17/09/2012
- SRG1119E - 10/10/2012
- SRG1157 - 24/10/2012

SRG1157 is the most up to date document and hence the one, I believe,
should be the prime reference.

SRG1157 says that a, non-specific, SRG1119 only needs to be submitted
if an Examiner does not/cannot/will not sign the Ratings Page.

SRG1119E is only for use if an Examiner has signed a Ratings Page.
Hence submitting one is nonsense (I cannot think of an example where
an Examiner signs a Ratings Page but candidate still needs to apply to
CAA for a Rating - Happy to be corrected if anyone else can)

Hence SRG1157 made SRG1119E redundant after only two weeks.

[Level Attitude]

Thanks WHOPPITY that is good news

Is there a template for the "Training Course Completion Certificate" or can I issue my own in my own format ?

As stated in Post #2: SRG1107

[belowradar]

Level Attitude

Thanks, did not view form so did not appreciate that it was a certificate of completed training

[BEagle]

Quote:
As an RF I can continue as before until next April and do not need to be an ATO at present

Yes, the CAA omitted to include RF in the IN but confirmed to some of those who asked that this is the case. In any case its April 2015 not 2014.

At last week's Dublin FCL-IF meeting, someone raised this question. The EASA person tried a "Befehl ist Befehl - an order is an order!" response, indicating that this training had to be carried out at an ATO. He was firmly put back in his box by everyone else and was told that his interpretation was unreasonable, disproportionate and would not be accepted. As the CAA put it "If an RF can teach the entire PPL syllabus from nothing, they can certainly conduct refresher training!".

EASA subsequently decided not to argue.

So, until Apr 2015, Whopity's statement is correct.

[dobbin1]

At last week's Dublin FCL-IF meeting, someone raised this question. The EASA person tried a "Befehl ist Befehl - an order is an order!" response, indicating that this training had to be carried out at an ATO. He was firmly put back in his box by everyone else and was told that his interpretation was unreasonable, disproportionate and would not be accepted. As the CAA put it "If an RF can teach the entire PPL syllabus from nothing, they can certainly conduct refresher training!".
Shame they did not extend this principle to allow RFs to train for LAPL and Aerobatics rating before becoming ATOs.

[ifitaintboeing]

You may still conduct aerobatics training as a RF, and provide the student with an AOPA certificate at the end of their course. This may then be used to obtain an Aerobatic Rating on an EASA licence.

CAP 804, Section 4, Part P, page 32. Para 2(a).

ifitaint...

[dobbin1]

You may still conduct aerobatics training as a RF, and provide the student with an AOPA certificate at the end of their course. This may then be used to obtain an Aerobatic Rating on an EASA licence.

Yes, and in fact this is what I am doing. However this is only applicable to someone converting their licence. As far as I can see this does not work if they already have their EASA papers - or have I misinterpreted the rules?

[ifitaintboeing]

Even if they have an EASA licence, you may continue to conduct aerobatics training and provide an AOPA course completion certificate, for the applicant to then obtain an Aerobatics Rating - until 08th April 2015.

Consider the licence and rating conversion(s) as separate - the only difference is that if you apply for the rating after licence conversion, you will have to pay the CAA a fee to add the rating onto your licence.

If you apply for the aerobatics rating at the time of conversion to an EASA licence the CAA will add it at no extra cost.

ifitaint...

[dobbin1]

Thanks ifitaint. Helpful advice

[justmaybe]

What forms are now required where a PPL holder obtains an EASA CPL, but on which his SEP (expired by 3 months) is not included on Ratings page of new CPL? SRG 1157 + SRG 1119C + SRG 1107; AND resubmit to CAA with and additional fee. (Am I missing something here - aghhh!!)