UK permissions for non-EU com flights

[mushroom69]

Hello all.

Does anyone know if permissions are denied nowadays? We used to have to get these before EU, now only from outside EU. But in practise, if we (as non-EU AOC holder) have a charter request FROM UK and to a destination outside EU, if there a chance that they would say no?

My impression was that it was informational and to make certain that we have our maintenance, airworthiness etc etc in order, but I have been told that they will say no if there is a local aircraft able to take the job? True in 2013?

[Booglebox]

In the unlikely event that they think you're treading on the toes of a UK-based operator (I've only seen this happen once), you can always make things up, e.g. "pax needs [feature / equipment installed on your a/c that others probably won't have]", something to do with FTLs and crew rest seats, etc. :hmm:
PM me if they give you hassle, I have some notes somewhere about techniques for dealing with DfT goons.

[Daifly]

That's not true Booglebox - the DfT have been cracking down on companies breaking the Freedoms of the Air for years, and the CAA have supported them actively. It's designed to provide some economic protection for the indigenous operators, and is the same the world over. The DfT aren't just trying to get in the way, they are actively supporting the UK GA industry.

At the moment the process is that the DfT inform all UK AOC holders via the BBGA who then seek no-objections. If there is an objection because of capacity in the market then the request will be denied. Then the DfT tell the Operator who objected and the screaming phone calls start...

It might seem like an arseache, but it's only enforcing the law in the same way that France does every day, like the States does every day, like... etc.

Having been on the receiving end of a rejection (as a UK Operator) to operate a France to non-EU charter recently I think it's fair that we're enforcing the law in the same way. It didn't seem to matter so much when the industry was over-demanded in 2007, but now, with massive over-supply, it does.

Of course, the only thing is that a lot of foreign operators just lie on their applications about what the flight is and then it doesn't get raised to the Operators for no-objections. But now the CAA are separating the passengers from the crew on arrival and asking a lot of pertinent questions, it's starting to become more difficult for people not complying with the law.

It's not everyone's cup of tea, I realise that, but it's not just the UK enforcing it strictly.

None of the above takes away from SAFA ramp inspections, which are happening more and more, which is the first part that mushroom69 refers to below.

[dc9-32]

Booglebox. Living up to your name I see.

As daifly states, Dft are cracking down and tightening their belts. I recently had an application rejected by them because the conditions were not met (not by me, but by the operator).

Maybe you should contact Mr Howard at the UK DfT and ask for him to confirm that Booglebox is correct and that he is indeed a goon as stated.

[HS-125]

The really annoying thing for us is that we always apply for non-objections wherever they are required (i.e.; France, Germany) - usually we have no problems however you always know which operators will make it difficult for us when they do have an objection however we hardly ever receive non-objection requests from Foreign operators!

One thing that I do not like about the whole non-objection process is that it's always the same operators that do have issues. If a broker / customer wants to book my lovely brand new aircraft instead of a clapped out Falcon 50 then so be it!

We also had an issue with a German operator declining our request - however if we slipped them 2000 EUR then they would agree ... that's not how we should do business at all.

[LAS1997]

HS 125. Falcon 50's are not clapped out! There are some very nice recently new Falcon 50EX (YOM 2006) aircraft available for charter in France. ;)

[Booglebox]

That's not true Booglebox
What part? Your post seems to agree with mine. :cool:

dc9-32, my name doesn't mean anything, sorry :E
I didn't know that they were tightening the rules; however my info / personal experience with them is about a year out of date. :hmm:

[dc9-32]

Posting information (opinions in your case) that are a year out of date could be damaging especially if someone with a little less knowledge/experience goes with your advice. Post the facts and we'll all thank you :ok:

[Booglebox]

Perhaps, but this is a rumour network, and I apologise for nothing :}

[mushroom69]

OK......Thanks for the various inputs. I must say that the no objection situation between EU countries was a new one for me. I thought that we only had a problem because we were non-EU.

I remember before EU that we had to "apply" if there was a local objection, but I thought this was a thing of the past between all EU operators and countries. Naive, I see.

The 2000€ "OK I won´t object then," we have encountered and even the very helpful CAA man I spoke to on the telephone today, confirmed that this happens.

I also find it interesting that a local operator can object when there is a difference in equipment (I won´t get in to whether the competition is a certain manufacturers "clapped out or not :cool:) as I would have thought that the client had the right to decide with whom he would fly.....but I guess that this is not always the case.

In the actual situation, we would have been replacing a man´s aircraft for 2-3 weeks, with only the initial leg out of UK. As we could not say 100% (awaiting approval and no objection) they went with a non UK, but EU operator for only the first leg....at a much higher price in the first place and forcing him then to use other operators again at his destination country. This defeated his desire to have one aircraft and crew available as his own for the time his aircraft was at maintenance. Not apples and apples, and the client suffers both in the comfort area and the financial area. Too bad!

I will come back and update how things go after a couple month´s experience.

ciao

[silverknapper]

If the owner were to write to the dft underlying the reasons you just gave it may help your cause.

I disagree with daifly, haven't seen too much in the way of increased SAFA inspections. However I agree that it's the same wherever you go in terms of protectionism. Whatever happened to free market principle.

A few have jumped on you. Unfair I say, you've been upfront and open about it.

Best of luck

[Daifly]

Mushroom69 asked me more about our French rejection by PM, but I think it's worth sharing the details:

"We'd got a G-reg subcharter booked to do a Paris to non-EU flight; all going fine, until somebody said "have they got a permit to do that"? Lots of mumbles of "it's not required is it, it's a European operator operating in Europe" - but the law says no; if a "foreign" operator (i.e. anything but that country) applies to do that country to somewhere outside of Europe, then everything falls apart and you have to apply for permits from, in this case, France and the non-EU country. It's only inter-European flights that are unrestricted to operate by European operators.

The non-EU country said yes straightaway, the French went ape **** and we ended up with objections from a Falcon operator (what else) offering a clapped out 900 at EUR30,000 more for the flight and wouldn't back down. As a result, our brand new shiny subcharter had to cancel the flight as they couldn't get the French permit and we had to have our customer get rogered for another EUR30k for the charter.

Totally unbelievable, but the French operators have decided they are going to do this every time now and so, even though we know the guy who objected really well, he apologised but said "non".

It's only if you are SAFA inspected, and they are happening much, much more in France now that it would possibly be discovered I guess. I would say 75% of our flights are inspected there now. But I'm not condoning breaking the Freedoms of the Air obviously.

I would say that pretty much 100% of everyone I run this story by goes "No way, it's a European operator operating in Europe". So if that's the collective thinking, we're all wrong it seems.

My position is that if we have spare capacity and could operate the charter, we should object, because that's what happens to us in other operator's countries. The free market was a about a level playing field, but it's not level unless we object.

- If the aircraft is replacing another for an Owner, I also think the DfT and UK Operators would be reasonable about it too.

[HS-125]

Hi Daifly,

The problem is, when did you last receive a "non-objection" request from a French operator (or anyone else for that matter?)

I've not seen one for ages - and it was defiantly not from one of the operators that always has a problem with our trips!

HS-125

[Daifly]

Ah, I see what you mean, no, can't remember when I last saw an objection request from a European operator in France. Presumably they aren't doing any UK - non-EU flights. Lucky that!

[FL480]

Any EU registered company can operate intra EU flights + EU to Iceland, Lichenstein and Norway.

For flights from France to anywhere else, if the aircraft has more than 20 seats or has a MTOW above 10tons, then the operator has to apply for a permit as written here (in french...)

Procédure de non-objection - Ministère du Développement durable (http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/Procedure-de-non-objection.html)

[Booglebox]

I've never had an objection from France. :cool:

[dc9-32]

You've had plenty of objections Booglebox, but not necessarily from France :rolleyes:

[Booglebox]

Crikey, you really are a wierdo :confused:

[cambioso]

That's rich from someone perporting to come from Timbuktu?!
Why don't you enlighten us with info on where you are really from, and your qualifications for giving this advice/opinion?
It doesn't hurt you know................
Jez
P.S. Better be careful DC9, this guy is obviously an (1 year out of date) expert.

[dc9-32]

Jez, he is a guy who likes to think he knows lots about everything but actually knows nothing about most things. Timbuktu is fantasy land.
No offence intended Booglebox, but when a chap comes on here asking for advice or guidance, your out of date so called knowledge really needs to be kept at home. I agree with you that this is a rumour network, but someone asking for advice on something quite serious is not someone spreading rumours is it?

As for me being a weirdo, I am not the slightest bit offended but thanks for the comment. Maybe I am a weirdo but one who has at least 25 years more experience than you and I suspect mushroom69 is more likely to listen to my advice than say, ermmm yours.

By the way Booglebox, could you enlighten me on how I get permission to conduct an air test with a B737-700, flying on an FAA SFP in French airspace? Thanks. I look forward to that reply so I can compare with the actual process.

Have a nice day as they say in New York.


Mushroom69 - if you would like some good contact details of the right person inside the UK DfT, drop me a PM and I'll gladly share them.

[Booglebox]

"out of date so called knowledge" = actual experience (in this case), and I stand by it. :}
Afraid I know barely anything about air tests, old fruit. As for the rest... it rather speaks for itself, and I think I should add you to my ignore list. Toodle-pip :cool:

[paradigmshift]

Hi mushroom69,

How is your experience going? were you able to operate freely, or found it difficult?

Rgrds

[mushroom69]

It varies quite a lot from country to country. France (no surprise!) seems to be the worst. Some required a lot of information upfront, then are easy for each actual flight.

So we have a nice little database and can pretty well quote on anything, except flights within a single country. THEN they are very restrictive. So Nice to Paris a BIG no-no.

Interestingly, due to French and German re-interpretations of the EU rules, we stand in exactly the same position as an EU operator on a flight from say Berlin to Moscow, as the destination is outside the EU(!)

Having spoken to many EU ops departments, none of them were aware of this and so it will be interesting to see what the practise brings in the future. None I spoke to were sending requests to either the Germans or the French for flights from EU airports to destinations outside the EU, as "required" under the new interpretation. I suspect that if the Germans and the French really start to give them grief, there will be calls to the EU offices in each country to sort it out.

Not surprising, the nordic countries, Switzerland and Spain were very easy, after sending in a lot of information, the Italians are also 24 hours notice.

[dallas]

Out of interest how does the no objections process work?

- who decides who qualifies as a rival?
- who contacts them for their opinion?
- what sort of timescale are they given to respond?

Facts appreciated please :}

[mushroom69]

That is one of the incredibly irritating things about the French.....YOU have to ask them. The French supplu you with a list and you need to contact them.

Exactly, what is a rival? First, they can then steal your hard-earned client and reap the benefit of your marketing.

So like one of the early contributors stated--instead of a newer, say Challenger, their client was more or less forced into a clapped out Falcon 50.

I thought the customer was the one who decided, but not entirely.

As it is readily available in English, here you have the German wording and present ruling, as of June 2012
Charter Flights

Air Carriers from Non-EEA Member States or air carriers from EEA member states wanting to conduct flights to third countries shall apply for an entry permission prior to commencing charter flights to and from Germany.
The application shall, in principle, be made by the air carrier actually performing the transport (operator).
Scope of the permission:
The permission may be requested for single flights or for a series of flights (chain of flights). The entry permission will be generally granted only if the state of registry of the air carrier submitting the application grants entry to German air carriers in the same way (reciprocity principle).
Application deadlines:
Applications for individual flights (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/061130_Antrag_Single.html?nn=30628) must be submitted to the Luftfahrt-Bundesamt in writing two full workdays prior to commencing the flight, at the latest.
Applications for permission for chains of flights (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/061130_Antrag_Kette.html?nn=30628) (beginning from the 4th flight in the sequence) must be submitted not later than four weeks prior to commencing the first flight of the chain.
Entry is not permitted without an explicit entry permission.
Each change to flights already approved shall be presented to the LBA taking into account the respective time limits applying to the approval of the application.
In order to do this the following documents shall be submitted in German (or English):


Application
Charter Agreement
Operating Licence including Air Operator Certificate with Operation Specifications (aircraft listing)
Third Party Legal Liability Insurance (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/061130_Third_Party.html?nn=30628)
Liability Insurance covering damage to persons, baggage, cargo and damage caused by delay (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/061130_PBD.html?nn=30628)
Certificate of Registration
Certificate of Airworthiness
Noise Certificate
Operating Permit Questionnaire (not required for EEA air carriers) (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/061201_OPQ.html?nn=30628)
Declaration concerning an authorized recipient in Germany (not required for EEA air carriers) (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/Authorised_Representive.html?nn=30628)
Aviation Security Plan (for EEA air carriers a certificate of registration from the state of registry of the air carrier is sufficient)

Additional requirements for Fifth Freedom Flights and / or operation with third country aircraft:
Evidence that German air carriers are not prepared or in position to conduct the flight / flights (declaration of non-availability)


List of German air carriers for passenger flights up to 50 pax (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/091013_Non_objection_bis_50_Pax.html?nn=30628)
List of German air carriers for passenger flights more than 50 pax (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/071114_Non_objection%20Pax.html?nn=30628)
List of German air carriers for cargo flights (http://www.lba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Formulare/B1/B12_Einflug/061208_Non_objection_Fracht.html?nn=30628)

EEA air carriers that wish to transport cargo to or from a third country do not have to present a declaration of non-availability.


So very little difference for EU/non-EU operators when the flight is going to a non-EU destination.


Hope that helps

[dallas]

Thanks Mushroom. Interesting, but actually quite painful too...