Cirrus SR 22

[Corvallis]

Can a cirrus Sr22 compete with the C210 for charter work?

[iPahlot]

I don't have any experience with the SR22 but unless you're comparing it to a very early model 210 with 4 seats then one would assume the extra 2 revenue seats in the 210 should be pretty much a no brainer and no-contest, you're really comparing apples and oranges here.

Then there is the whole low wing vs. high wing debate, the cherokee six, lance/saratoga and bonanza all have similar spec to the 210 but you'll find 210's and 206's but few operators use them.

[Corvallis]

a lot of times i have seen only 2 to 3 pax in a 210 charter. The cirrus may win the 3 pax market if u tell them its only 8 - 10 yrs old and airconditioned and travels faster. and the parachute for safety.

[iPahlot]

a lot of times i have seen only 2 to 3 pax in a 210 charter. The cirrus may win the 3 pax market if u tell them its only 8 - 10 yrs old and airconditioned and travels faster. and the parachute for safety.


That is true, some charter operators have 172's and 182's for those sort of charters too.

Age, might have a bit of appeal, though there are quite a few operators with younger GA8's and I think they win more work due to to the aircrafts utilitarian pros rather than age.

Aircon is good, but how does an airconditioned 22 compare in operating costs?

I grant you the chute would have some appeal, though I don't think it's a huge selling factor except maybe some niche clientele, I believe for charter category the insurance companies will still view it in the same light as a 210, bonanza etc So you'd still in to the same issues as with the other singles when companies have insurance requirements for twins and/or ASEPTA approved turbines.

I guess some questions for you.

Where are you looking to run the charters? (Big difference between doing outstation runs and doing short east coast hops between airports with large sealed runways)

What's the 22 like with 3 large adult up? What if they've got plenty of luggage, tools, supplies etc?

What's the 22 like loading cargo?

How does it perform when loaded to max on a hot and humid day?

[Mr Milk]

One is a proper aeroplane and one is a toy.
See how long the toy lasts in the charter conditions in the northern half of Australia.
I personally prefer the design safety of any real aeroplane rather than the idea of having a rocket powered parachute strapped to it.

[Jabawocky]

They go quite well in the USA on charter. Albeit sealed runways everywhere.

TN SR22's are best for high altitude work.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Neither SR22 or Corvalis for that matter were intended to replace the 210.... and never will. Little wheels in spats are just not going to hack it out there for a start. Doubtful would be a financial prospect in maintenance or acquisition costs either. The 210s have plenty of 'life' in them yet... Although personally I would not go near some of those aged high time s--tboxes.

But if you can find something that is tough and does not run on avgas.... How long will we continue to have affordable avgas? Oh sorry, those days are already gone.
Maybe the new diesel powered 182 is the way to go? Cessna certainly seem to think so as they have dropped the 182 turbo from their line.

[43Inches]

Considering where most C210 operate in Australia the SR-22 would struggle in the long term with the small wheels and construction (damage resistance and cost of repair).

Then there is the whole low wing vs. high wing debate, the cherokee six, lance/saratoga and bonanza all have similar spec to the 210 but you'll find 210's and 206's but few operators use them.

The Lance/ Saratoga are not in the running as outback utility aircraft, they chew up too much runway and usually have lower useful payload, the low vs high wing is not the real issue. PA32, Cirrus, Bonanza are all designed as private sports cars and not really suited to off-road applications. The only PA32 that may have some use is the fixed gear Cherokee 6 with its load capabilities but they're older and a lot harder to find than the Cessna.

As iPhalot has already stated;

I guess some questions for you.

Where are you looking to run the charters? (Big difference between doing outstation runs and doing short east coast hops between airports with large sealed runways)

What's the 22 like with 3 large adult up? What if they've got plenty of luggage, tools, supplies etc?

What's the 22 like loading cargo?

How does it perform when loaded to max on a hot and humid day?

Once you ask those questions for the operations the 210 does the SR22 would probably come out down the list for most answers.

[Corvallis]

A 2005 - 2006 model SR22 G2 is around 230K in USA + 30 k to convert it to AUS. I would have thought that maintenance would cost same as the 210.

[43Inches]

Normal direct operating costs are probably pretty similar, but, what sort of cost difference and down time are you looking at for minor damage. The sort caused by wings through fence posts and bushes, wheels down rabbit/pot holes, stone damage on loose strips etc... Again very unlikely if just used for big airport shuttles, but if used for station runs and more true utility work it will encounter these things more often. The landing gear does not look like it would take much punishment ( the gear on the 210 is not much better though). Aluminium is very easy to reshape/replace a panel when dented. From what I have seen from operating other composite types damage can have it in the shop for weeks.

The C210 also seems to carry an extra 100-200kg payload above the Sr22, so if the operational costs are the same the 210 can get more payload on board therefore making more profit when its available.

[Jabawocky]

But if you can find something that is tough and does not run on avgas.... How long will we continue to have affordable avgas? Oh sorry, those days are already gone.
Maybe the new diesel powered 182 is the way to go? Cessna certainly seem to think so as they have dropped the 182 turbo from their line.


The solution to leaded Avgas is only just around the corner. Don't sweat it.

As for the diesel 182, I think a market is there in other parts of the world.

[QFF]

SR22 vs C210 is comparing apples vs oranges. The C210 is like a dual cab ute whereas the SR22 is more an executive sedan. I'm not sure we would be having a discussion on whether a Toyota ute or BMW sedan would be more suitable on a minesite.

Corvallis - just like when buying an aircraft, it's all about the mission. If you're talking bush charter taking engineers, surveyors and toolboxes into gravel strips, then the C210 wins hands down. The Cirrus, on the other hand, is ideal for ferrying CEOs and executives from inner city to regional airports - indeed the back seats in the Cirrus are set up exactly for that sort of work - lots more legroom, comfy leather seats, adjustable air vents etc.

Pre-G3 (<2008) SR22s have very low prop clearance so I would be wary about taking them into gravel strips on a regular basis. Also the earlier SR22s without aircon have a full fuel payload of about 270kg, which is quite respectable.

[Old Akro]

The only PA32 that may have some use is the fixed gear Cherokee 6 with its load capabilities but they're older and a lot harder to find than the Cessna.

Actually - Piper still make them.

[43Inches]

Piper briefly offered the Saratoga fixed gear for a short time. All Saratoga production ceased 2009/10, now Archer, Arrow and Mirage are the only single piston offerings.

The Cirrus, on the other hand, is ideal for ferrying CEOs and executives from inner city to regional airports

Whilst this sounds like a good idea I don't know of many companies that would allow their CEO or upper management to travel in a piston twin let alone a single engine piston. If the strip was big enough a twin turbine of some sort would probably be chartered.

[Wally Mk2]

I think most recognize that the two A/C in question here aren't in the same race/league.
Just curious to those that are in the know with composite type machines how would they compare to repairing out in the field? I mean repairing a damaged tail for Eg on a C210 is pretty straight fwd for a good 'sheety' even out under a tent in a paddock but can you repair a Cirrus with a few tubes of epoxy glue? I use the term loosely but I think most would know what I am getting at

I once saw what was left of a C172's tail group when it was used as a rubbing post for several curious cows in a paddock the machine had landed in the previous day, doubt the Cirrus would have faired any better:-)

Utility, usefulness, ruggedness, known abilities proven over many many years & parts that are readily available & often found in the back of some old hanger (& even K-Mart so to speak!)...........can all those categories be tagged to the Cirrus?

C210, beast, brutal.......very Commodore'ish. Bit like a country chick at a B&S ball:-)
Cirrus, cute, delicate looking & stylish, bit like social set princess:-)

Look at it this way. Your married to the C210, yr at a hanger party & you stand up with a drink & toast to the C210 & yr Girlfriend the Cirrus & hope they never meet:E

Wmk2

[VH-XXX]

Easy answer there Wally is that the SR22's rudder is also sheet metal, just like the ailerons and flaps :ok:

[Wally Mk2]

'xxx' i wasn't just referring to the control surfaces on there own although they where beaten around it was the LE of the tailplane that looked like it had been in a war & the possibility that the control surfaces where stressed at there attach points due excess travel was very real as a full grown cow would have a lot of 'push' behind it trying to relieve that urge/itch:).


Wmk2

[VH-XXX]

Indeed you are correct, if you've seen what a cow can do when it needs to scratch an itch it would make an American Grizzly attacking a Super Cub look lame.

The plastic interior of the Cirrus doesn't hold up well to the Aussie sun, I know that for sure.

[Jabawocky]

Nor does a Cessna or beech, so it's a moot point.

[truthinbeer]

If you really want to haul load, still have performance and have off-field landing ability then the Expedition 350 fits the bill.

[Corvallis]

The issue with the Expedition is the price ( around 600k). and not many if any have been sold in AUS. With Cirrus there are 600 for sale rite now so much easier to find bargains. Also cirrus can be flown Lean of peak (50 l /hr @ 165kts).

[Jabawocky]

And the Expedition can too, in fact any "conforming" engine will. So LOP ops should not be a determining factor.

[captseth]

I am the DFO for an air carrier that operates exclusively Cirrus aircraft. It does well on the specific type of mission mentioned earlier - ferrying execs on trips to paved airfields of at least 800 meters.

Airframe repairs may only be done by a factory authorized composite repair center with specific drawings supplied by the manufacturer that are developed after the damage is assessed. As you can imagine, many seemingly repairable airframes get totaled due to the cost of this.

It must be flown carefully by a well-trained pilot as it is not forgiving of stupidity. It has a highly capable avionics package and the 'chute, which is attractive to some I suppose (marketing: "it's got a parachute, it must be safe!).

We operate mostly newer ones with the G3 (lighter spar) wing and better prop clearance. Air conditioning is an absolute must due to the amount of plexiglass, as well, headsets for all as that airframe transmits every last vibration directly to one's skull.

It can carry about 1,000lbs of pax and fuel. It cannot carry three big guys and all their golf clubs. The latest ones have three seats in the rear row, which is useful for children. The newer ones are certified for flight into known icing, but due to the lack of nosewheel steering, it cannot be taxied on a snowy or icy surface.

It's a great airplane for charter but needs to be supplemented with a twin-engine aircraft for higher payload missions.

[VH-XXX]

The newer ones are certified for flight into known icing, but due to the lack of nosewheel steering, it cannot be taxied on a snowy or icy surface.

I learnt this the hard way on wet and slightly boggy grass, it just went around in circles; had to call out a wing walker to get me in!

[solowflyer]

Can just imagine the the brothers piled up in the back of a Plash as sr22 with ac and leather seats. At least the baby spew will be easy to wipe off.