Same Old Same Old - How do we change it??

[LeadSled]

General Aviation Safety Alerts (http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2013/ga_issues/presentations.html)

Folks,
All of the above is well worth a read, particularly given the last few months here in Oz.
Tootle pip!!

[Jack Ranga]

* Make an APS course mandatory.
* Go back to RPPL & PPL.
* Make spin training mandatory.
* Encourage aerobatic training as part of PPL syllabus.
* Come to grips with GPS, you can't fool the young whippersnappers, the training industry has got to come to grips with it yet still give the whippersnappers a good working knowledge of DR.
* Address the appalling average age of the GA fleet. For a first world country it's a disgrace that this infrastructure is in the state it's in.
* Scrap CASA & ATSB, start again. Get rid of the OLC & make the promotion of aviation part of both their charter.

That's how :ok:

[thorn bird]

Yup Jack pretty much on the money. If the industry is to survive it has to get out from under the regulatory load. Its two thirds cheaper to operate the same aircraft in the US, and their regulator is looking for further ways to reduce costs to the industry by making it cheaper to certify aircraft and other initiatives to make it cheaper to own and operate a certified aircraft. All our lot can do is write ever more burdensome claptrap that serves no useful purpose but to drive up costs. Same thing happened in the UK, a hell of a lot of private aircraft there now operate on foreign registers.

[buzzz.lightyear]

What Jack said!!!

[in-cog-nito]

Here, here Jack!

[Unregistered User]

I reckon we all chip in and buy Jack a 1 way ticket to Canberra, whether he wants it or not.

And then take over from the Julia wench.

Jack for PM :ok:

[LeadSled]

Jack,
For once I agree with most of what you have said, with the exception of the matter of fleet age.
We have absolutely no record of accidents to show that fleet age, or structural adequacy is an issue.
Tootle pip!!

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Dr:

I'm sorry to advise it's a bit worse than that...

165 Billion is JUST for Gillard's term since her little coup d'état.

NET Labor Debt is approaching the 300 Billion limit set by Parliment.

Swanny may need to lift that limit this budget.

Nice moves considering Johnny and Pete left Labor a nice little surplus in '07....

[rutan around]

Aust debt 10% GDP
US & Europe 80% GDP
Average rest 50% GDP
So RICH fine green your problem is ?????????

[Typhoon650]

I love Labor parrots.
So, you REALLY want Australia to be facing the problems the US and Greece/some of the EU are facing? I'd rather not have to deal with that sort of incompetence.

[rutan around]

I love Labor parrots------ The pot calling the kettle black I think. Whats best - spend some money to maintain employment and end up with an economy that's the envy of the world or do a Newman- sack thousands , employ a bunch of dodgy mates and watch the economy plummet.
Back on thread. I fully agree with LeadSled. There is no evidence that age is a problem with properly maintained aircraft. In my opinion some of the older machines are slowly being replaced with less efficient and less useful ones.eg the Cessna 210-Can anything beat it on a balanced basket of abilities?

[Jack Ranga]

Lead, regarding fleet age, it's more the avionics, the cost of upgrading etc.

I forgot to add to the CASA & ATSB bizzo. Remove, NOW, the political appointments & put aviation people in there. The ATSB was a disgrace during the Pelair ditching, an embarrassment clearly out of his depth.

I can't go to Canberra yet, got a bit of stuff on ;)

[Old Akro]

So, as I understand it, Jack is pretty much describing how things were in the seventies (except for the GPS bit).

In my experience, the install cost of avioincs in Australia is about twice that of the US. Part of the reason is that not as many guys here have repeat experience with the same equipment / aircraft configurations. But big part of the reason is that CASA just make it more expensive with a raft of red tape that doesn't exist elsewhere. There is also a shortage of Avioins LAME's so the sector is not very competitive. All issues in the domain of CASA if they had any real interest in promoting safety.

BTW, I think 3 more NDB's were decommissioned this week and YWE is still not working. ASA is simply not doing its job in providing a properly maintained air navigation infrastructure.

Agree with Leadsled. There is an issue of maintenance integrity with some aircraft, but no airframe age issue per se. The vast majority of our private fleet has only done a fraction of its design hours.

[Jabawocky]

* Make an APS course mandatory.
* Go back to RPPL & PPL.
* Make spin training mandatory.
* Encourage aerobatic training as part of PPL syllabus.
* Come to grips with GPS, you can't fool the young whippersnappers, the training industry has got to come to grips with it yet still give the whippersnappers a good working knowledge of DR.
* Address the appalling average age of the GA fleet. For a first world country it's a disgrace that this infrastructure is in the state it's in.
* Scrap CASA & ATSB, start again. Get rid of the OLC & make the promotion of aviation part of both their charter.

That's how

Item one would do a heck of a lot to help. Many dead pilots and passengers would be alive today had they done this. And it would have saved them a fortune in maintenance costs, etc.

The rest of that list is of equal value. POTY Jack.:D

[Ultralights]

Aust debt 10% GDP
US & Europe 80% GDP
Average rest 50% GDP


why are we comapring ourselves to the worst, and telling ourselves all is good, compare us to the best, we are no longer so good. with our mineral wealth, we should be one of the best, not the best of the worst.

[LeadSled]

---- the install cost of avioincs in Australia is about twice that of the US

Folks,
True in spades, but the reasons are wider and deeper, CASA "regulations" is driving up costs, as have many other present government's regulatory activities.

For something like a Kingair, it is substantially cheaper to ferry the aircraft back to US for any but minor upgrades. If you are putting in a full Garmin or Aspen system, or something similar, it is "no contest". Likewise, Singapore produces net costs far better than here.

If you are putting something like a Garmin 600 in your light twin, it is cheaper to buy all the bits, have the panel mod. made in the US and fly a techo. down here to fit it, than have it done locally. And the turnaround time will be measured in days, not months.

Taking a light single/twin to NZ to do major avionics upgrades is also very viable, compared to doing it here.

Tootle pip!!

[Arnold E]

If you are putting something like a Garmin 600 in your light twin, it is cheaper to buy all the bits, have the panel mod. made in the US and fly a techo. down here to fit it, than have it done locally. And the turnaround time will be measured in days, not months.

What a load of bollocks, each install job is an individual and depends on the start and finish points. The cost of the equipment here in Oz is still cheaper than flying to the US.:ugh:

[Jabawocky]

Agreed with Arnold, and Jack Ranga's recent experience shows the Aussies are competitive. So were mine.

Some shops are slick....others not so.

Complete Avionics on the Gold Coast :D

[owen meaney]

Arnold E, that was my thoughts, Avionics Shop at $130 an hour, sheet metal work at $95 an hour. Components are at what they cost.

[Arnold E]

Avionics Shop at $130 an hour,

Bloody hell, better tell the boss to put the rate up.:eek:

[Jack Ranga]

If you do your research there is an avionics mob on the Gold Coast that are Platinum Garmin dealers. They will match Spruce prices on most stuff :ok: They are great people to deal with.

Doubt whether going overseas for a Garmin re-fit would be cheaper, might be for other brands?

The cost of 'doing business' in Australia is the killer. It is now recognised as the highest cost country to do business with in the world. That's something for you labor accolytes to be proud of (NOT).

[rutan around]

So Jack it was a whole lot cheaper during those long going nowhere Howard years.I must have missed that !

[Wally Mk2]

I think what 'JR' said sums it all up re GA & the cost of doing business here in Oz, also it's fairly obvious about the other subject creeping in here, the current Govt, little else needs to be said about that lot other than they are self destructing, just as well they deserve no less!:ugh:

Wmk2

[Jack Ranga]

Yeah, rutan, matter of fact it was :ok:

[Arnold E]

So Jack it was a whole lot cheaper during those long going nowhere Howard years.I must have missed that !

Me too, I bought a tail dragger kit for my 150 in 2003 and it cost me $12000, can get the same kit today for 7 and a half.

[Socket]

Leadslead, yet again spouting doom and gloom and making statements with nothing to back it up. How about providing quotes ( like evidence) to support your claims.

[T28D]

So what isisabout exchange rates you don't understand ?? Howard years really bad exchange rateAUD/USD

Today we areat parity hence the difference, should you take the timeto do the calculationsto bring both amountsinto constant purchasing power dollars I venture to suggest the Howard years were cheaper relatively.

Quote

Me too, I bought a tail dragger kit for my 150 in 2003 and it cost me $12000, can get the same kit today for 7 and a half.

[Avgas172]

Whats best - spend some money to maintain employment
Thats gotta be the biggest crock of ****e that I have ever heard, where were you during the insulation debacle, the 'education facilities upgrade' and the handout to lots of non workers to buy imported goods .... come on man open your eyes .... end of political rant, no further corrospondence entered into. :ugh:

[LeadSled]

What a load of bollocks, each install job is an individual and depends on the start and finish points. The cost of the equipment here in Oz is still cheaper than flying to the US.:ugh:

Folks,
There must be some dumb people around the industry, Arnold, the owners of two specific examples I have in mind (hence the reference to the Kingair and the Garmin 600 into a light twin) were people in the industry in NSW, not private or corporate owners. People who know the costs to the last fraction of a razoo.

Is that what is wrong with the industry, Arnold, long time industry professionals can't figure out the end prices in US, NZ or Australia, and go and spend more offshore.

I guess that's why we send so much small turbine work to NZ, so we can pay those lovely New Zealanders more money, compared to doing the job in AU.

Or, perhaps, you have got it wrong.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Socket, you can fulminate all you like, but I will not be posting information on this site to identify individual aircraft. If you don't want to believe it, tough, keep you head buried in the sand.

[Arnold E]

Or, perhaps, you have got it wrong.

No, don't think so, we have had some quite happy customers with installs we have done.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

those long going nowhere Howard years.


Personally, I liked my federal budgets in surplus, not being wasted on insulation programs that electrocuted a couple of sparkies (gee, wasn't beds that were burning there, Mr Garrett. Went quiet after that, didn't you?), unnecessary building progams that did little more than line builders' pockets and encouraging Sri Lankan and Afghan maritime expeditions.

"And farmers all across the land, mightn't have water but they'll have broadband."

Fat arsed, earlobe dragging, lying, backstabbing, commie, athiest...:mad:

Drift out...

[T28D]

OK in surplus because of the currency differential, and a difficult lending environment which curtailed capital linvestment.

Austalia was ( and still is ) a great place to live , provided you didn't travel and or had the need to buy goods externally.

I had the experience of wrestling with the cr*p AUD whilst trying to run a business in Australia through the Howard years, fe*king hardwork I can assure you.

Are we in a better place, answer is no, because we have internal wages break out, yup the exchange rate is good, the internal costs are rubbish, the whole thing is destined for the dificulties we saw in 1987 cost of funds high compared to the world, real productivity low, actual productivity questionable, pockets of good news ( flat screen TV is cheap ) aviation held in a timewarp by bad regulation and cowboys inflating egotistical pricing.

[thorn bird]

New word in the dictionary to describe a system of government.
Fits OZ very well I think.

INEPTOCRACY
(in-ep-toc-ra-cy)
A system of government where the least capable
to lead are elected by the least capable of producing,
and where the members of society least likely to
sustain themselves, or succeed, are rewarded with
goods and services paid for by the confiscated
wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[Andy_RR]

So Jack it was a whole lot cheaper during those long going nowhere Howard years.I must have missed that !

it would be a whole lot more expensive today if Julia and Wayne had the national credit card declined...

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Must be easy to be given a 20 billion dollar cresit card and blow it all on crap insulation, a summer garage for the car (ie. a building you don't need) and feeding and clothing every other needy person in the world apart from our own pensioners and then claim to the world that you're the world's best.:yuk:

If you are the best, then let's see you go to the next election with a financial situation better than what QLD Labor left right before the last election, where after the biggest landslide loss ever, Blight resigned immediately, causing another by-election and fcuked off out of the state with her new bumped up super fund.:mad:

Wonder if Juliar's got a one way back to Wales booked yet?:confused:

[triathlon]

What does Jullia Gillard and Ronald McDonald have in common?

Answer: They're both red headed clowns!