Can I let my IR lapse?

[CBM]

Hey guys,

Quick question. I have an ATPL issued to me in August 2011 or so. I revalidated my IR in the sim in April 2012.

It's now come to the point where I need to revalidate my IR once again. I've recently joined an aviation company, where I am an ops executive. The company are looking to get a plane so that I can fly on their behalf, and I have been told I can let my IR lapse. Just thought I'd get a second opinion.

I hope this is enough information. Any advice would be much appreciated.

P.S. Can I let my class 1 lapse into a class 2 as well?

[joker737]

For your medical.. Yes you can let it lapse! But not sure for the IR :

[paco]

As long as you don't let it go beyond 5 years after the last expiry, when you have to redo it. Before then you can just get it done by the local guy (that's what I do).

[mad_jock]

Check with CAP 805.

The rules have been changed.

I think its now 6 months after that you have to go through an ATO with sign offs by the head of training to get it back.

[Another_CFI]

CAP804 states the following:-

Renewal. If an IR(A) has expired, in order to renew their privileges applicants shall:

(1) go through refresher training at an ATO to reach the level of proficiency needed to pass the instrument element of the skill test in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL; and

(2) complete a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL, in an aeroplane.

If the IR(A) has not been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years, the holder will be required to pass again the IR theoretical knowledge examination and skill test.

Standards Document 14 specifies the suggested retraining which is:-

Expiry by less than three months - No retraining
Expiry between three months and a year - One training session
Expiry between one year and seven years - Three training sessions.

[Higher for hire]

According to JAR-FCL 1.270 every holder of an ATPL must possess a valid class 1 medical. If you let the class 1 lapse you are not allowed to fly, not even for private purposes! A class 2 medical is of no use for an ATP. A lapsed medical is however not such a big issue like a lapsed IR as it is easy to renew.

[Curtis E Carr]

What has JAR-FCL 1 got to do with the UK?

Notwithstanding, how do you interpret JAR-FCL1.270 as you do? This is only referring to an applicant for an ATPL.

[gorter]

There are significant lapses in your questions. What country issued your atpl? Do you actually have an atpl or what used to be called a frozen atpl (10 years ago cpl/ir with atpl written exams passed in uk jaa land) no idea what they are called these days. And unless you tell us which NAA's jurisdiction you're under no one can give you a decent answer.

[BillieBob]

According to JAR-FCL 1.270 every holder of an ATPL must possess a valid class 1 medical. If you let the class 1 lapse you are not allowed to fly, not even for private purposes!Nonsense! The embedded privileges of the PPL(A) may continue to be exercised with a Class 2 medical certificate. This remains the case under EASA although you should be aware that if, for any reason, the EASA licence has to be re-issued, only valid ratings and certificates will be transferred to the new licence.

If you do not renew the IR for 7 years or more, you will have to re-take the theoretical knowledge examinations. The refresher flying, however, is entirely at the discretion of the ATO, which may take account of the recommendations in AMC1 FCL.625(c) but is in no way obliged to do so.

[Higher for hire]

Nonsense! The embedded privileges of the PPL(A) may continue to be exercised with a Class 2 medical certificate.This is definitely not the case. There is no such thing like an "embedded PPL". If you hold an ATPL you are entitled to conduct private flights but that doesn't mean you have an "embedded PPL". JAR-FCL 1.270 states unambiguously:

"In order to exercise the privileges of the ATPL(A) a valid Class 1 medical certificate shall be held."

I personally know a fellow CPL pilot in Germany who is by chance also a lawyer. He used to think the same way like you do, let his class 1 lapse and continued flying privately. He was sued by the German LBA, went to court and lost his case. I can only warn everyone: don't fly without an appropriate medical!

[nick14]

So why then does the EASA ATPL state:

Privileges:
ATPL (A)
CPL (A)
PPL (A)

It might be worth an email to the CAA to ask?

[Curtis E Carr]

"In order to exercise the privileges of the ATPL(A) a valid Class 1 medical certificate shall be held."


Absolutely.

But if not excercising the privileges of the ATPL(A)...........?

What nick14 says about the entry on a Part-FCL licence is correct in that the lower licences are also explicitly listed.

And I reiterate my earlier question: what has JAR-FCL 1 got to do with the UK?

[Level Attitude]

H for h
You appear to be absolutely correct.
Very well spotted! And well done for bringing it to everybody's attention.

FCL.040 Exercise of the privileges of licences
The exercise of the privileges granted by a licence shall be dependent upon the validity
of the ratings contained therein, if applicable, and of the medical certificate.

Part-Med .A.030
(f)Applicants for and holders of a commercial pilot licence (CPL), a multi-crew pilot licence (MPL),
or an airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) shall hold a Class 1 medical certificate.

FCL.505 ATPL — Privileges
(a)The privileges of the holder of an ATPL are, within the appropriate aircraft category, to:
(1) exercise all the privileges of the holder of an LAPL, a PPL and a CPL
So: No Class 1 Medical = No Valid ATPL (or CPL) and hence no valid Licence at all!
Given that EASA do not allow anyone to hold both a PPL and an ATPL at the same time this
does seem ludicrous.

Given that:

FCL.070 Revocation, suspension and limitation of licences, ratings and certificates
(a)Licences, ratings and certificates issued in accordance with this Part may be limited, suspended
or revoked by the competent authority when the pilot does not comply with the requirements of this Part,
Part-Medical or the applicable operational requirements, in accordance with the conditions and procedures
laid down in Part-ARA
I was hoping that the UK CAA might be more pragmatic, but no:

CAP804 Section 4 Part N Page 1
2 Privileges
In order to exercise the privileges of any licence, a pilot must hold a valid medical
certificate for the licence held.

This definitely needs amending, either at EASA level or, more quickly at
"Competent Authority" level using the provisions of FCL.070.

[maxed-out]

To the original poster,

I think another question we all need to ask ourselves is what happens when we revalidate the IR under EASA in the sim one year ( in effect letting the MEP lapse by just under a year) and then need to renew in the aircraft the following year.

We would therefore have a valid Multi IR but a lapsed MEP rating at the time of renewal in the aircraft. So even if we renew the IR in the aircraft within 3 months of the expiry date would we still need "training as required" on a twin to get the MEP and ME IR both signed off at the same time under the new EASA regime?

Just a thought.

[nick14]

From what you said there yes.

The MEP is a class rating is separate to the IR. You can only revalidation the IR in the sim, not the class rating, therefore in order to exercise the privileges granted by the ME/IR on the aircraft you would also have to revalidation the class rating by taking the MEP revalidation LPC in the aircraft. If the purpose is to remain employable (valid ME/IR) then go for the sim.

Bear in mind that all renewals must now be conducted through an ATO and if your class rating has expired then refresher training can be considered but it is entirely upto the head of training to decide how much taking into account the AMC'S.

[maxed-out]

Nick14,

Thanks for the reply. Valid points, however to "remain employable with a MEIR" you still need to complete the test in the aircraft every two years but you wouldn't necessarily have the MEP unless you cough up for the additional training before the test. It would be nice to have the MEP just in case a job offer comes along which requires it.

Anyway back to the grindstone..