2 x Helicopters crash in Berlin

[Geoffersincornwall]

BBC reporting 2 helicopters down near the Olympic Stadium in Berlin

G.

[JimBall]

BBC: Emergency services are attending a helicopter crash near Berlin's Olympic Stadium, in which several people are said to have been injured or killed.
According to an unconfirmed report, two helicopters crashed in mid-air during a police exercise, killing one of the pilots and leaving three people hurt.
Footage showed one black helicopter on its side in the snow.
Some 400 federal police officers were conducting a football violence training exercise when the crash happened.

[skadi]

One Puma and one EC155 collided during excercise in front of the Olympic stadium in Berlin. One pilot reported dead, several injured. It was an excercise with three helicopters and about 300 policeofficers ( football hooligan scenario ), snowfall, during landing two helicopters collided with the mainrotors.

Weather in that area 2200m VIS SN 700ft

Polizei-Helikopter: Polizei-Hubschrauber abgestürzt, Mann stirbt - B.Z. Berlin (http://www.bz-berlin.de/bezirk/charlottenburg/polizei-hubschrauber-abgestuerzt-mann-stirbt-article1656275-image2.html)

skadi

[airborne_artist]

http://www.bz-berlin.de/multimedia/archive/00415/hubschrauber1_41557728.jpg

http://www.bz-berlin.de/multimedia/archive/00415/hubschrauber_41557528.jpg

[Sokol]

Sounds like an whiteout happened while the Puma tried to land behind the EC155
Why they are trying this in such bad weather conditions?

[Spunk]

German newspaper report that the Super Puma was the first to land without any problems. A second helicopter landed in a distance of @ 30 m behind the Super Puma taking it's time to avoid whiteout.
A third helicopter is suspected to have rushed it and crashed into the first one.:(:(:(

[whoknows idont]

they flew right by me two and a half hours ago which pretty much matches the reported time for the incident.

one 155 followed by two super pumas (all feds), flying close in line formation in what looked like 300ft and 30-40kts. visibility just a little worse than what is depicted above.

i wondered about their heading because such formations usually directly approach or depart the mil part of EDDT. i wish i hadnt found out... :(

[Soave_Pilot]

Geez! My best wishes to them all....


Landing on snow covered surfaces can be tricky sometimes

[Spunk]

video of the approach Video (http://www.n24.de/mediathek/ein-toter-mehrere-verletzte-hubschrauberabsturz-in-berlin_1616716.html)

[ralphmalph]

Shocking weather!

[Anthony Supplebottom]

My best wishes to them all....

Not all of them will be in a position to receive your good wishes.

Poor vis - again!!

[Tiger G]

Not sure if it's the same video, I couldn't get the other one to open:

LiveLeak.com - 2 police helicopter crash in germany, caught on tape,1 dead

[ricardian]

BBC reporting (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9946035/Berlin-police-helicopter-collision-caught-on-film.html)Two helicopters operated by the German federal police collide in snowy conditions while conducting a training exercise close to Berlin's Olympic stadium, leaving at least one person dead.

[Phoinix]

My concolences to the family of the deceased. I hope that all involved get back on their feet soon. This is a disaster.

[jayteeto]

My god, those blokes walking away only just avoided being cut in half by flying debris. How close? A miracle that casualties were so low. Condolences to family.

[Soave_Pilot]

Poor vis - again!!

total white out!:eek:

[skadi]

My god, those blokes walking away only just avoided being cut in half by flying debris. How close? A miracle that casualties were so low. Condolences to family.

The young lady ( with the bag ) at the beginning of the last video right hand side was severely hurt on one of her legs. In one of the galleries was a pic of here with an unusual position of her lower leg...

Here she is given first aid:

http://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/hubschrauberunfallinberlin_31460150_mbqf-1363867782-29606162/4,w=583,c=0,view=.bild.jpeg

skadi

[hueyracer]

White out (as "brown out" or "green out") is nothing to play around with.

I know some of these helicopter pilots flying for the police-some of them are still young (and lowtimers), with not to much white out experience...mainly because the training hours are reduced year after year.....(not saying that the pilot in this case was a low timer.....nor that he wasn´t trained properly...)

White out AND formation landing.....a bad combination....how often do they get to train this?

[500N]

I couldn't get the other videos to work but
saw this on youtube.

Not that you can see much because of the whiteout.


2 police helicopter crash in germany, caught on tape,1 dead - YouTube

[transilvana]

I saw them this morning while leaving the hotel, just over Alexander platz, heading to the stadium, sorry for the pilot, my condolences.

[whoknows idont]

according to an unofficial source, the pilot killed was standing out in the open, killed by debris.

[mickjoebill]

Some work needs to be done on making the main door more rescuer friendly when the aircraft is on its side.


Mickjoebill

[skadi]

Some work needs to be done on making the main door more rescuer friendly when the aircraft is on its side.
Mickjoebill The guy, who tried to open that door, was obviously one of the marshallers ( yellow vest ) and was lying flat on the snow beside the crashed puma just a few seconds before. Hats off for his quick reaction!

http://www.bz-berlin.de/multimedia/archive/00415/hubschrauber-maife_41557228.jpg

skadi

[500N]

Christ, how close did he come to being killed ?

[Good Vibs]

It appears looking at the various photos and videos that the first Puma landed to the left, the 155 in the middle and was on the ground when the second Puma landed onto or too close to the 155.
Amazing that not more were injured from flying debris.

[hueyracer]

Where do you see a second Puma?

[whoknows idont]

http://www.morgenpost.de/img/bilder/crop114647155/3383237089-ci3x2l-w620-aoriginal-h413-l0/Hubschrauberunfall-in-Berlin.jpg

[tecpilot]

Seconds before the accident, the EC 155 safe on ground but death is behind and approaching. The second Super Puma landed direct into the EC155 still running at the ground. The marshaller with incredible luck and seconds later the first encouraged rescuer. Brave guy.
http://up.picr.de/13848379nv.jpg

[S76Heavy]

Yes, very brave guy and very fortunate as well that the debris did not take him out.
A credit to the service.

However, I cannot help but wonder, having done some incident and accident investigation work, if this accident did not originate on the planning board.

Did anybody discuss wx minima for an EXCERCISE? What was the rush and the operational need here?

What was the experience level of the crews involved and were they up to this combination of task and circumstances?

Unlike wars, football matches can and have been cancelled..so can excercises.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

S76, planning is essential without question but, even with the best planning and crew selection in the world, if the drivers were not familiar with the experience of managing a whiteout, then they were doomed - no matter how experienced they were. (If in fact this was a whiteout).

Whiteouts have gotten the better of some skilled crews over the years.


.

[cattletruck]

This is a most unfortunate accident. Does anyone know if the Puma dipped its tail into the 155's MR? I imagine this could easily be done with the onset of whiteout conditions making it harder to judge ground proximity and distance traversed once the reference to the other machine dissappeared behind the pilot.

[S76Heavy]

AS: but, even with the best planning and crew selection in the world, if the drivers were not familiar with the experience of managing a whiteout, then they were doomed

My point exactly.
The experience levels of the crews should be known to those running the excercise. If (for argument's sake let's assume a whiteout as the most probable immediate cause) the crews have no or very little experience in snow ops, there should have been a referee on the sideline cancelling the formation landing in the stadium in blowing snow conditions.
The crews are operating in a situation where they are probably unaware of their limitations in whiteout conditions never having operated in them before, at least with limited room for manoeuvre.

For the sake of the excercise IMO they should have scrapped the formation landings, hold the excercise, reorganise the ground troops to where they could safely restart the next phase and practice formation landings some other day.

Lesson learned would be to ensure a more thorough buildup of experience OR accept the fact that there are limits to what can safely be done when not trying to prevent worse from happening.

Losing valuable people and assets in an excercise simply does not compute. There was no operational necessity here to put people at risk.

My first whiteout was quite an experience and I made sure there was plenty of room to play with without the risk of running into other stuff that would ruin our day.
But an inexperienced pilot may be too optimistic in his expectations of remaining vis until too late. That is why sometimes others with better understanding should pull the plug before the holes in the cheese line up.

[ShyTorque]

S76, planning is essential without question but, even with the best planning and crew selection in the world, if the drivers were not familiar with the experience of managing a whiteout, then they were doomed - no matter how experienced they were. (If in fact this was a whiteout).

Whiteouts have gotten the better of some skilled crews over the years.

Eh? Some self-contradictory statements in that post!

Helicopter generated whiteout is always a possibility in winter ops over lying snow and it should always be included in basic planning for winter ops, with contingencies allowed for. It's basic stuff and it's certainly not the first time it's snowed in Germany in recent history. Any experienced pilot should have known about the possibility of whiteout.

[hueyracer]

Any experienced pilot should have known about the possibility of whiteout.


Let´s wait for the outcome of the (ongoing) investigation, before we start throwing stones....
But that was also my first thought when i read about this accident....

[Anthony Supplebottom]

ShyTorque - you have in fact validated my comment, unless of course we are to debate on semantics.

The point I am pressing is that without experience in managing whiteout conditions and the incidence of whiteout, no amount of "other" preparation would have protected these crews - a point S76 seems to have clearly understood.

[jayteeto]

I would guess that these pilots were familiar with whiteout conditions.......... single aircraft.

[tecpilot]

All the pilots in this mission are highly experienced, full rated and since long years professional pilots. There is no single low-timer between them. All have done thousends of HEMS and police missions and faced a lot of times white out conditions.

But someone made a fatal mistake, we are all humans and humans are known for making mistakes. Thats all to say to this sad day. There is no other reason. A simple human error, may be a verbal mistake, a split second wrong decision and a catastrophic outcome. There is no 100% safety to get in aviation especially not in HEMS or police or military aviation. Pilots are not machines.

White or brown out conditions are dangerous, but helicopters have to operate under such conditions. That makes our job something special. Desk riding it's easier.

[S76Heavy]

@tecpilot:
people are not machines, I grant you that. Which is why we need to mitigate for potential errors.

Errors were obviously made, hence an accident with unfortunately a fatality.
However, even if the crew were very experienced, this was only an excercise. No reason not to stop and think if the situation got very demanding. Go around, fly an orbit, buy some time. When in doubt, chicken out. No use in adding to the casualty score even if it were for real.

Just look at the HEMS threads and how critical everybody seems to get after another fatality. Most words spoken are a lot harsher than in this topic. Simply stating that "100% safety is impossible" does not cut the mustard.

Those at the sharp end may have been unaware of the immediate risk, that is why IN AN EXCERCISE someone should monitor proceedings with solely safety in mind and halt anything that is unsafe.

Landing 3 helicopters in a stadium may be safe in clear weather but in loose snow it is a different story.

FYI I have some time in HEMS and SAR just so you know I am not completely armchair only. I am not bashing the crews but pointing at the overall control of the excercise that I find lacking if it allows an unsafe situation to develop. Seen it before and also with fatal results.

So can we at least take away a lesson about mission safety control from this?

[hueyracer]

All the pilots in this mission are highly experienced, full rated and since long years professional pilots. There is no single low-timer between them. All have done thousends of HEMS and police missions and faced a lot of times white out conditions

I doubt this pretty much-again, i know some of the pilots flying for the police (and also flying on exercises like this)..

I know how they have been trained, and i know how much "training" they get to keep their currencies...

Otherwise, i would not have brought up this point....
I will wait for the accident report...but i doubt that the pilot crashing into the other chopper was "highly experienced in white out conditions"...

[skadi]

I doubt this pretty much-again, i know some of the pilots flying for the police (and also flying on exercises like this)..

Dont mix up the local police units and the federal police ( former Bundesgrenzschutz )... the latter was involved in this accident and their experience/training is different to some local police Sqds.

skadi

[ShyTorque]

The point I am pressing is that without experience in managing whiteout conditions and the incidence of whiteout, no amount of "other" preparation would have protected these crews - a point S76 seems to have clearly understood.

The point I was making was that "the best crew in the world" would not, or should not, have allowed themselves to even attempt a landing in rotor wash generated whiteout conditions, as was almost certainly the case here, and the likelihood of encountering those conditions in the first place should have been brought up at the planning stage. As I wrote, it's basic stuff for any pilot who has operated in snow before, or even been properly briefed.

The trick about whiteout caused by blowing snow is not to get in the situation in the first place. It's basic stuff to know when this is likely and has been very well documented for many years. Even planning to land three helicopters in close proximity in conditions like that was far from sensible.

Using terms like "doomed" makes Joe Public think that helicopters are intrinsically unsafe and it reflects badly on the industry in general.

[Phoinix]

I agree with skadi. I know a couple of BP officers and their training is the peak of what you can get in europe police forces. Myself being one of their students I am shocked at the accident. Another lesson that although we get a lot of training and experience, sometimes its just bad luck.

[hueyracer]

I teach brown out (and green out-under NVG´s) landings and take-offs...i do it with low time pilots, but also with experienced pilots...

You would be shocked to see how many of them don´t cover the "dust landing" point in their "landing briefing"-and how many think they know how to land in dust conditions-and then are totally shocked, when the dark cloud is catching them...


Again: The report will show how experienced the crew was....and might show, what has really happened..
Up to this point, a mechanical failure is still possible (although unlikely).....

I just feel sorry for the pilot-he has to live with the the thought of having killed one of his colleagues.....

[What Limits]

sometimes its just bad luck

Most of the time its just bad decision-making, on-board and off-board.

[HeliStudent]

Would anyone be willing to explain what the procedure is for a pilot who finds himself in a whiteout?

[tecpilot]

Landing 3 helicopters in a stadium may be safe in clear weather but in loose snow it is a different story.

It wasn't a stadium. An obstacle free gigantic field in front of the stadium, big enough to give room for 100.000 visitors on concerts, large enough to land 30 helicopters simultaneously. Weather was not so bad, round about 2km visibility. A routine job for experienced pilots to land 3 ships with troops on such ground. Troop transport day and night is a main task of the Super Pumas and they have done it again and again, also on snowy conditions.

[ShyTorque]

Helistudent, try this link for starters:

Winter Operations - Helicopters | Air Operations | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2520&pagetype=90&pageid=14022)

If you do get yourself into rotor wash induced whiteout due to blowing snow, you have few options. Either pull pitch and fly away on instruments, or land. In a simple, VFR helicopter, you might have only the latter option and the outcome might be as per this tragic accident.

To prevent arriving in the hover and generating your own whiteout, either don't fly in the first place (!), plan to carry out a "zero speed", or run-on landing (aiming to keep the cloud of blowing snow behind you), or if you have HOGE power, an alternative is to carry out a high hover and blow the loose snow away before attempting a landing. The latter may not work so you may still have to go around and reconsider or abandon the landing altogether. If the whiteout is already there (e.g. fog/mist over lying snow, or someone else's blowing "snowcloud"), attempting a landing is extremely dangerous and should not be attempted. Go around and wait, or land somewhere else.

[skadi]

New video from different angle:

NEUES VIDEO Hubschrauberabsturz Berlin Olympiastadion - YouTube


skadi

[Helinut]

That last video gives a much better picture of what went on.....

Helistudent, as a general principle of risk management, hazard avoidance and minimisation are a better bet than emergency action. Saves having to use those superhuman pilot skills you may (or may not) have. See ShyTorque's post for the particular detail. Another phrase you could think about is "situational awareness".

Have a think for yourself (with the benefit of hindsight) how you would have prevented this one. Only downside would have been that the landing would have taken a few seconds longer and involved a longer walk for the pax. A small price to pay in a training exercise.

Another one for the ever-growing HF/CRM video libraries.

RIP, very sad.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

I would be amazed if the PIC of the crash Puma had more than 1,000 hrs in command.

He continued his descent and low level manoeuvering while basically IMC. The approach was no different to how you might land without snow.

The second he went IMC while in such close proximity to another aircraft he should of upped and away.

I do realise that its easy to say this with hindsight though.

[Gemini Twin]

Such a stupid waste. Can some one tell me who was in charge of the TRAINING sortie?

[Curtis E Carr]

Can some one tell me who was in charge of the TRAINING sortie?

In the unlikely event that the name of the person in charge is posted here, what are you going to do with it?

[Phoinix]

He doesn't want the name, he just wants to be smart and superior father figure as sometning that stupid would never happen to him. Good luck on that one.

The last person that said sometning that stupid was a pilot yesterday. 20 minutes after sharing his thought he made a take off with 350, stuck the tail skid into some snow and almost flipped the heli on its back.

[SASless]

Seemed some very dark area's that might have worked for better reference...but would have been further away than the Ground Guide and Vehicles. I wonder if that would have made a choice of landing sites?

Also....seems the Thread Title is a bit wrong....only one aircraft crashed....the other was un un-willing Victim.:E

[FairWeatherFlyer]

If uncertain volume of loose snow then do not a) plan to or b) attempt to land near people/aircraft/stuff, is that the rough summary?

[Gemini Twin]

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers CEC and Phoinix but it was a waste of a precious life and two helicopters. As it was a poorly managed training mission is was a therefore a stupid waste. The white out conditions were evident with the first landing yet to the others continued. Some one should have been watching out for them.

[MightyGem]

Why they are trying this in such bad weather conditions?
Shocking weather!
Did anybody discuss wx minima

Not the weather, just an error by the pilot of the second Puma. :(

[Rigga]

"Such a stupid waste. Can some one tell me who was in charge of the TRAINING sortie? "

Just about what I'd been telling the RAF for years... But I'm not in that argument anymore - I left (again)

[hueyracer]

From the video:


All three approaches are not "ideal" for these conditions....
Although it is a good idea to keep the approach a little (!) bit steeper than a normal approach, one should keep the speed just a notch above that of a normal landing.....none of the three is doing that.

What is the reason for "rushing in" of the third one?
"Tactical scenario"?
The whole Infil seems to take ages....so it looks like the third pilot tried to "come in quick" (because it´s an exercise....you know....quickquickquick....)

If i can´t find good reference, i ask the guys on the ground to drop something (like a heavy rucksack) that will do the job....even a smoke grenade does two jobs: Showing me exactly where the wind is coming from (in these conditions, even 1 kt wind can make the difference-if it is coming from the front, or from the back), and it burns a nice, dark hole in the snow...

(Because: It´s an EXERCISE.......that´s why we TRAIN.....to AVOID making mistakes....to FIND out our limits...it´s not for showing how "Top Gun" we are already....)

[bast0n]

Hueyracer

If i can´t find good reference, i ask the guys on the ground to drop something (like a heavy rucksack) that will do the job....even a smoke grenade does two jobs: Showing me exactly where the wind is coming from (in these conditions, even 1 kt wind can make the difference-if it is coming from the front, or from the back), and it burns a nice, dark hole in the snow...


Absobleedin correct! Spot on. If you cannot land safely without a reference make one. They could have used a marshaller or a toolbox or anything that will not blow away. We used to do a low pass and chuck out someone elses bergen if all else failed.

Puma number two made all the classic errors.

[Phoinix]

Before the crash you can see three persons one standing at each landingsite.

[as365n4]

yeah, where there marshalers but have you also noted the very close distance between them?

This was not very professional in any way!

And the Pilots are indeed "Low Timers" in comparison to the rest of the industry.
They have not enough money in the pot to keep the things afloat and training gets reduced to the legal minimum each year!

This was the swiss cheese who wanted to be happend. :(

[212man]

Hueyracer

Quote:
If i can´t find good reference, i ask the guys on the ground to drop something (like a heavy rucksack) that will do the job....even a smoke grenade does two jobs: Showing me exactly where the wind is coming from (in these conditions, even 1 kt wind can make the difference-if it is coming from the front, or from the back), and it burns a nice, dark hole in the snow...


Absobleedin correct! Spot on. If you cannot land safely without a reference make one. They could have used a marshaller or a toolbox or anything that will not blow away. We used to do a low pass and chuck out someone elses bergen if all else failed.

Puma number two made all the classic errors.

With the greatest of respect to the two posters, surely you are talking about landing on a featureless surface with no visual references on it? In whiteout/brownout you can't see the surface. The US Military currently loses about $100 million per year in brownout accidents in Afghanistan and is spending millions in research at NASA Ames and other institutions to find solutions (as are defence manufacturers such as BAe.)

Clearly there were flaws in the planning and execution of this evolution - not least trying to park too closely!- but I'm pretty sure 'chucking a rucksack out' would not have helped much!

[EcamSurprise]

Indeed 212.

One would think that if you could see a rucksack for reference, you might also spot there helicopter you're about to chop.

[hueyracer]

Come on, guys...

You all know what i am talking about when i say "make your own reference".

In an ideal approach, the pilot got this small "doughnot" around the helicopter-the area, where he can see (and pick) his reference on the ground, before the cloud comes in.

No reference=no idea about the actual movement/disposition of the helicopter=go around!

It is exactly as described in all books:
Pick a (contrast) reference!
Doesn´t look like this has been done here.....

Yes-the americans are loosing aircraft-as does the rest of the industry....accidents happen...
But even in the military, there are "low timers"-in Afghan, Iraq and the rest of the world...

But don´t let this thread end in a discussion pro/con "military against the rest of the world" (again!)

One would think that if you could see a rucksack for reference, you might also spot there helicopter you're about to chop.

No way....you might be able to see what´s happening 1 or 2 m away under your bubble....but you will never be able to see anything that´s further away....
Have you done dust landings before?

[EcamSurprise]

Hi Huey,

No, sorry, I'm an outsider looking in.
Good to get a better insight into the visual references that you actually have, thanks.

[SASless]

212man,

Vietnam, Dry Season, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, (Lots of Tracked Vehicles of all sizes and types), laterite type talcum powder kind of dust sometimes a foot deep or so.....Chinooks carrying max weight loads on slings into and out of unprepared LZ's......getting the image?

It is possible to Hover over to a waiting sling load....hook up....and depart when the dust cloud sometimes reached 300 feet high.

The Trick was to find a set of reference items....Rocks, Howitizer Projectiles, Ammo Cans, Sand Bags, Jeeps, logs....anything that was not going to blow away. Then, the brief to the NHP was your hover plan....this rock to that ammo can...to that cloverleaf of cannon shells...to the load....so he knew what cues you planned on and what to look for himself.

As you got the slings tight it was max power, Instrument Takeoff US Army Style...Hover Attitude with Max Power applied until positive rate of climb..then Five Degrees nose low....and wait to see something visually as you emerged from the dust.

Landing was just the opposite....pick a solid reference point....arrive ahead of the Dust Cloud, release the load, clear the load and land to your Reference point. If you lose sight of the Reference point it is Wings level and arrive with a fair rate of descent with no effort to feel for, seek, or hunt the ground....stand on the brakes, collective on the floor and wait for the dust to settle.

We wore Goggles to keep the dust out of our eyes.

Snow is no different except for the loss of surface definition in the classic Whiteout scenario... where Dust usually has only the loss of cues due to the dust cloud.

Long answer to your question....the short version is "Yes"...a Rucksack or anything else for that matter helps. The key on landing is not to make a slow, hovering approach and landing. You want to be firmly on the ground when the Dust/Snow Cloud catches up with you....even if it means a bit of ground run.

Night really complicates matters.

[S76Heavy]

Looking at that last video I fail to understand why the instinct for self preservation did not prevent the 2 puma captains from landing at a greater distance from the Ec155. The camera angle may distort the distance, but perhaps the first Puma got lucky with a slightly different wind and only 1 medium helicopter blowing snow, the other had a medium and heavy running rotors on the ground when he arrived (and as has been said in other posts with a less than optimal techique for the conditions).

Marshallers and other ground crew be damned, the captain decides where to land. In my days on HEMS I sometimes had ground crew cursing me for having to walk an extra 200 metres, but when I deemed it safer to land elsewhere it was done my way.

It would be interesting to see if "experienced" in government units means something different than in commercial operators.
But this seems a mistake due to lack of experience and/or confidence to make a command decision NOT to follow the script when circumstances are worse than scripted.

I hope that the accident investigation will take note of the preparation and planning for the excercise and the apparent lack of flexibility in the snowy conditions. It could and should have been prevented, and multiple layers in the system should have the authority to do so.

What SASless describes are actual combat missions, and I accept that sometimes the job simply has to be done and the crews have to find ways to mitigate the risks. War being one of the scenarios, which is why comparing Berlin to Afghanistan is not right IMO.
But in an excercise it should not be that way. If you find you cannot do what is in the script, bin it and save it for the debrief. It is a learning opportunity after all. This time the lesson was very costly and it needn't be.

[hueyracer]

Hover Attitude with Max Power applied until positive rate of climb..then Five Degrees nose low....and wait to see something visually as you emerged from the dust.

And it still works like that-up til today....
:ok:

The only "evidence" we have so far is two different videos-and we all know how things can change through the single eye of a camera...

Although it LOOKS like the pilot went completely wrong here (and I, too am speaking about "lack of proficiency" here-without having a proof)-i am curious what the accident report will show....

Yes-you´re right...
"Proficiency" HAS a different meaning in governmental organisations..

[as365n4]

It will take a long long time till the germans publish an initial report.
The last updates on the Bulletin section of their website was from March 20 and included the accidents till the end of January.

They are not the quickest in these kind of things. :bored:

Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung - Thema 1 (http://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/Bulletins/bulletins_node.html) (german)

Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung - Interim Reports (http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publications/Interim_Reports/reports_node.html) (english)

[bast0n]

212man
Clearly there were flaws in the planning and execution of this evolution - not least trying to park too closely!- but I'm pretty sure 'chucking a rucksack out' would not have helped much!

Shows you have not been there done that then.

[Thone1]

@AS365N4:

Not quick but very thorough.
They estimate mid April for the initial report.
I personally think they´ll be a week or two faster than that but it takes some pressure of the investigators.

Tragedy but still fortunate that there was "only" one casualty and 4 or 5 injured.
As I read today the crashed Puma carried 16 pax.

The killed pilot was sitting in the EC155 and was apparently killed by a rotor blade hitting the cockpit.
(Source: Berliner Morgenpost)

Tom

[as365n4]

@ Thone1

How long takes it for the CAA to publish the first initial report after an incident?
A couple of hours, right.

So why can't the germans do the same?
It isn't rocket science to gather the basic facts and put an quick, short report online.

[OvertHawk]

AS365N4

The CAA don't publish bulletins or reports after an accident - AAIB does.

Depending on the circumstances of the accident the AAIB may well publish an initial bulletin soon after an accident detailing the know facts at the time. I've know them to do so after a couple of days on occasions, but never after "a couple of hours" as you suggest!

OH

[as365n4]

Erm, sorry my bad for mixing up the two organisations.
As far as I remember, last year after the 225 ditched in the North Sea you had the first info from the AAIB within hours or at least the day later.

And this incident happend Thursday and still nothing from the germans, except media reports.

[hammerhead70]

Makes me sad to watch such an unnecessary waste of life! RIP!

Looks like they were trying to use those three marshallers as a reference. Brilliant idea, but why is the 155 keeping their guy on the left? I assume the pilot-flying was in the right seat. He should have kept his reference/marshaller on his side and landed a lot closer/right next to him instead of looking across the cockpit. Makes it a lot harder and he most likely lost his reference at the last moment. All three aircraft are approaching too slow and end up at a unfavourable hover height. Which is too high for a no-hover whiteout landing and too low for a high hover / blow-the-snow-away first landing. The second aircraft appears to actually drift backwards before they make it to the ground. Very dangerous in that situation. The snow hasn't settled yet, but number three comes in for a landing anyways. Why not wait an extra moment and let the snow settle? Professional heliski pilots approach a lot faster to keep the snowball behind the aircraft until they touch down. They "drive" their helicopters right into the snow and always always always end up with their reference right next to them. Never loose your reference! That approach technique might not work for helicopters with wheel type landing gear though. Why not come into a high hover first then, blow the snow away and then work your way down? Instead of marshallers, they should have used stakes as a target. Those marshallers are just standing there, not giving any signals anyway. Might as well get them out of the equation all together.
I dare to say that none of those pilots were proficient enough to land under those conditions. They were lured into a trap and got caught. Unfortunately!
Their superiors should scratch their heads and come up with a good explanation as of why this mission was being conducted under these circumstances with crews that were not properly trained for it. And they could have gotten them a lot of training for the price of those two helicopters alone!

What kind a riot control scenario needs troops to be inserted by helicopter anyways???

[as365n4]

Normally they do this kind of riot control when they have their annual nuclear waste transport or on weekends when a football match takes places with a very high number of hooligans or on high security events like a G8-Summit for example.

Castor 2010 - 6 Polizei - Hubschrauber landen bei Gorleben - YouTube

[bast0n]

Hammerhead

Professional heliski pilots approach a lot faster to keep the snowball behind the aircraft until they touch down. They "drive" their helicopters right into the snow and always always always end up with their reference right next to them. Never loose your reference! That approach technique might not work for helicopters with wheel type landing gear though.

It does. A zero zero landing we called it. Run out of height speed and ideas at the same moment - and NEVER LOSE YOUR REFERENCE.

[Collective Bias]

Many personal opinions here now.....

I my experience, a run-on landing (with skid or wheels) only work as long there is very little snow, and you are sure about the surface below the snow. With more snow on the ground (or unsure about the surface below) the high hover is nearly the only safe technique. But with larger hcp's and dry light snow, it never stops blowing snow. A very good reference is the only safe thing.


CB

[Thone1]

@as365n4:
Quite simply because it is not required.

If a technical fault is suspected, sure enough the manufacturer of the aircraft will get notified and push out bulletins as deemed necessary.
In this case I´ve heard nothing about a suspected technial fault, all video points to pilot error.
So what should they publish? That 2 aircraft crashed?
Nothing new there.

Once the investigation is complete a thorough and well researched report will come out, detailing all factors contributing to the accident.

Faster is not always better.

[bast0n]

Collective

I my experience, a run-on landing (with skid or wheels) only work as long there is very little snow, and you are sure about the surface below the snow.

A zero zero landing is not a running landing. It is what it says on the tin!!;)

Certainly worked fine for me and my chums in Wessex and Seakings in any depth and quality of snow.

[Collective Bias]

Sorry, should have read my post before posting......

I know that we are not talking running landing here, but still my comments are valid for me. A direct (zero-zero) landing leaves very little margin for error or unforseen snow or surface conditions, and even less so with heavy hcp's. I feel a high hover (if you have the power) is safer in the long run, and all conditions. Provided you have the references for it.

This is my experience, and I only post it as an opinion.

I would be intresting to hear the opinion of other pilots operating in 3-4 feet of snow or more.


CB

[hueyracer]

High Hover only works when the landing spot is only covered with a little snow/dust/whatever.

With the landings we usually do (burnt areas in the bush, desert landings...), there is no chance on "hover until it´s clear".....you would hover forever....

Not too much snow here, though.....but even when we did the same in snow, every landing is different.

Wet snow.....loose snow.....wet snow covered with a small layer of powder snow.....Fresh fallen powdered snow (up to 3 ft thick), covering (almost) "solid" ice.......not a good idea to do a running landing on that stuff...

What i am trying to say here:

White/Brown/Green-out landings require experience-the kind of experience that you can only get when you keep on doing these kind of landings for several hundred or thousand reps..

It´s nothing that you can train in a 5-hour-course.....and it´s a skill that you loose when you are not using it frequently...

[bast0n]

Collective

I feel a high hover (if you have the power) is safer in the long run, and all conditions. Provided you have the references for it.


No! You would be there all day/night..................and probably perish!!:=

ps - I have only four years experience in the Arctic in winter and many chaps here have much more experience than me. But I am still here! It would be nice to hear from 339 Squadron RNOAF who were our contemporaries at Bardufoss and who had been there, done that for many years................

[as365n4]

The Germans are publishing an status report next week about this accident, it's filed under BFU 3X010-13.

But it is basically just a first course and progress display, the actual analysis of the accident and thus the determination of causes is the (final) examination report, which is not to be expected till next year.

Main things are, where was a training session for the exercise before, which was canceled due bad weather.
The distance between the reference points was 20 and 27meters.
They did 2 full circles around the landing zone before they approached the field, but the two 332 switched positions during their final approach.
During briefing they had chosen an approach with slow speed till they reached the reference points and then a speedy touch down.
Last training regarding flying during winter time, they had in mid December as an power point presentation.

The Pilot of the EC155, 40 years old and 3841 hours experience, 928 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 27 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 14 hours.
The Flight Engineer of the EC155, 55 years old 3197 hours experience, 446 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 25 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 13 hours.

The Pilot of the first AS332, 45 years old and 4140 hours flying experinece, but no mentioning on how many hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 30 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 15 hours. During the exercise he acted as team leader for the formation.
The Flight Engineer of the first AS332, 42 years old and 4369 hours experience, but no mentioning on how many hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 25 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 10 hours.

The Pilot of the second AS332, 53 years old and 4577 hours flying experience, 585 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 24 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 13 hours.
The Flight Engineer of the second AS332, 46 years old and 3092 hours flying experience, 251 hours on type, in the last 90 days he had flown 15 hours and in the last 30 days he had flown 1 hour.

The snow height at the landing zone was 17centimeters and 15centimeters on the accident site. And the landing zone in total is about 112000 square meters wide.

[Nubian]

So this was inexperienced young low-timers with little or no training in such operation....

Ok...

[tecpilot]

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/510763-2-x-helicopters-crash-berlin-2.html#post7755329

No more to say also today, but i'm sure some of course higly experienced and well informed posters knowing much more and anything better from XXXXnm away. Sometimes the yellow press is more gracious than a professional forum.

[rotorrookie]

So this was inexperienced young low-timers with little or no training in such operation....

Ok...

Nubian, you are joking right?:rolleyes:

[hueyracer]

This only shows us that accidents happen-no matter how much experience a pilot got..

Interesting question:
How many white out landings has the crashed pilot done in his career?
How many white out landings has he practiced in the 12/6 months before this accident?

[tecpilot]

How many white out landings has the crashed pilot done in his career?
How many white out landings has he practiced in the 12/6 months before this accident?

More than the average (international) lowland helicopterpilot have under the belt. Snow happens not so much in the flat european areas. Some years ago i was in february in south england and surprisingly the whole area was white and in deep snow. Watching the flight ops i was sure the mass of helicopterpilots never operated in really snowy conditions. May be not so much lowland civil or police operators does special training for the pilots for the some days of snow per winter.

Sure you can't compare a snow proven highland pilot with a lowlander. But be sure the high time federal police pilots are trained above the average lowlander and all of the involved pilots have done a lot of hours also in snowy conditions as HEMS pilot and on border guard missions in mountain areas.

This only shows us that accidents happen-no matter how much experience a pilot got..

Thats the point. Such (human errors) accidents are only to prevent with stopping all helicopter ops because there will be allways a clever one finger pointing to not enough experience in snow, in gusts, in rain, in bad visibility, in tight landing places, in max take off weights - to make it short, in helicopter usual ops with allways changing conditions.

[Nubian]

Rotorrookie

Sarcasm, as early on there was a few posts that was more than indicating this to be the case....

[hueyracer]

True-and i have been one of the guys saying so....i am glad to hear that it was NOT due to the lack of flying experience in general....

Nevertheless-was it really necessary to do an exercise in these conditions?
Yes-if they are called out (for real), they can´t change the weather-so they have to train in bad conditions, too.......but was it really worth risking it on that specific day?

[tecpilot]

My dear, as you know large and long planned exercises with several involved units and commands, hundreds of troopers are not so easy to cancel in police or armed forces. Unfortunately! Especially if weather and environment conditions are demanding, but clearly within the rules.

One is always wiser after the event.