Being bumped from a flight

[yarnsplicer]

Are there any fixed rules about procedures for "bumping" passengers from a flight?

In Birmingham on 14 March, the morning Air France flight to Paris arrived with too few cabin staff. For safety reasons, it proved necessary to reduce passenger numbers by 29. After volunteers had come forward, there remained a significant shortfall, and others were called forward one-by-one to be told the bad news that they were not travelling. Most protested; some made a fuss and were allowed on, while others, who were less vocal, were led away down the Walk of Shame. The seemingly endless, and sometimes acrimonious, debate led to a very long delay - a delay which had serious consequences for travellers with connections or with important meetings. It seemed that the whole procedure was conducted in a somewhat improvised manner. Any authoritative opinions, please?

It's Eurotunnel for me next week.

[easyflyer83]

You were just unlucky by the sounds. It sounds like a crew member went sick as the flight wouldn't have been allowed to leave base (Paris) with a crew
Member down.... Regardless of passenger load. We don't really know the criteria the airline used when it came to offloads. Which ever way they did it it will always likely lead to issues. Obviously it lead to inconvenience to yourself but by announcing that you will use euro tunnel next time and from your version of events it certainly sounds like a rare and exceptional circumstance.

[crewmeal]

I guess denied boarding compensation will cut in here. Negotiate your own terms especially if you're on a connecting flight. Quite often a Club Class upgrade to the other side of the world, along with hotel accommodation is better than a paltry amount of cash that the agent offers.

[mad_jock]

No rules apart from when its going to occur all the ground staff that are most experenced leg it in the oppersite direction usually.

They tend to go for single blokes travelling without bags.

The best way of getting on is to rub your hands when they tell you and say that will be 400 euro cash please (if over 1500km and 3 hours when your actually due to arrive at destination) and how do you intend to get me to my destination. They will then come back and say no actually sir its less and your account will be credited or you will get free flights.

Then you say "you do know that if you don't the airline is getting a £5000 fine then."

They will go a bit red at this point and say something along the lines of "your wrong"

Just smile and say "we both know I am not"

Which point I have always suddenly been put back on the flight again.

[Rwy in Sight]

Just for that reason after some incidents I carry on my office bag the Eu regulation 261/2004 and if the situations does not turn the way I want it (some times I want the money and the added night away - some times I want the scheduled flight) I remove the regulation and I "wave" it in front of the staff. It works wonder.

[ExXB]

Mad Jock.

In the EU (as the OP was) there is mandatory compensation for denied boarding. The amounts are €250/400/600 for flights up to 1500kms/flights of 1500~3500kms/longer flights*. Note the regulation says 'flights' not journeys. If your bumped of a short flight connecting to a long flight your compensation would only be €250.

* This is a close, but imprecise, description from the Regulation. There is an exception that only practically applies to flights within the EU of more than 3500kms (i.e. to/from the French DOMs) so we can safely ignore it.

In respect of delay in arrival - there is no mention of this in respect of denied boarding. If you are denied boarding for almost any reason* you get the compensation regardless of the length of your delay - you could even arrive earlier and still be entitled to compensation. (Yes, this is stupid - but consider the source).

*However if you show up without a passport, visa, etc. or late that's your problem.

There are NO fines (automatic or otherwise) for non-compliance with the regulation. National Enforcement Bodies MAY have enforcement powers, but nothing applies at an EU level. I certainly don't know the workings of 27+ legals systems, but I haven't heard of fines being applied for breaches of the Regulation.

I'm sorry to be pedantic, but it would be unfair to other PPRuNers to give them inaccurate information.

One of the best sources which describes the workings of the Regulation can be found here. (http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/passengers/air/doc/neb/questions_answers.pdf_reg_2004_261.pdf) This document was put together by the Commission, NEBs and Airline Associations (Network, LCC and Charter).

I keep a copy in my travel kit.

Edited to Add - the commentary in the linked document was developed before the ECJ concluded that compensation could be payable for delays. Therefore Q19 is no longer correct (according to the ECJ, who need their heads examined)

[crewmeal]

The amounts are €250/400/600 for flights up to 1500kms/flights of 1500~3500kms/longer flights*

How is this money paid? Does the handling agent pay out there and then, or are you sent away on a promise of it will be in the post? I cannot see handling agents having wads of cash saved for this purpose.

One point, how do you extract cash out of FR when this happens?

[ExXB]

From the regulation:3. The compensation referred to in paragraph 1 shall be paid in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in travel vouchers and/or other servicesThere is no time limit mentioned, however. And no, airlines and their agents don't keep wads of cash handy

The airlines, in the latest consultation, want to be able to make a credit to the Credit or Debit Card used to make the booking, but the Commission hasn't agreed. It certainly raises the question of who is entitled to the compensation; the purchaser, or the passenger (when they are different)

[radeng]

What happens if you've changed your credit card before they make the refund?

[ExXB]

They would apply the same procedure as if you had changed CCs before asking for a refund. They would make payment using one of the other methods, or credit your new CC.

It costs money to handle cash or issue cheques.

[RevMan2]

Ask for volunteers, then look at the priority list (if it's a decent airline, they'll have one sorted by FF status, onward connections, fare class et al.
Basically, they''l take the people who'll have the least consequential financial impact...

[yarnsplicer]

Thanks, RevMan2. That seems suitably pragmatic as an approach which might be taken by a sensible airline.

What was interesting in this case was that the chucking-off was done by Servisair people. It seemed that Air France's contribution was simply to arrive short-staffed, and then to hunker down in the aircraft while someone else sorted out the mess.

The AF purser subsequently explained that the crew had no clearance to leave the aircraft, and so they, too, just sat and waited. She did not seem to be any more pleased with the situation than we were.

[RevMan2]

It should work like this: AF defines procedures, documents them and embeds then in the contract with Servisair as their handling agent.
The crew doesn't have the knowledge of ground handling they'd need to be useful in a depature control environment.

[The Range]

And what if you didn't pay for the ticket. You got it with miles or points, your flight was cancelled and you've been booked on another flight. Are you still entitled to compensation?

[ExXB]

And what if you didn't pay for the ticket. You got it with miles or points, your flight was cancelled and you've been booked on another flight. Are you still entitled to compensation?

Article 3.3 of the Regulation: 3. This Regulation shall not apply to passengers travelling free of charge or at a reduced fare not available directly or indirectly to the public. However, it shall apply to passengers having tickets issued under a frequent flyer programme or other commercial programme by an air carrier or tour operator.

So whatever applies to a revenue ticket also applies to a FF ticket. (Note, the example given may not be entitled to compensation - it depends on the actual circumstances)

[rowly6339]

I used to fly BHD-MAN quite a bit with BA and got asked to give up my seat a few times, each time i was put on the next flight (1 hour wait) and a voucher for £5 for food/drink and another voucher for £125 which could be exchanged at the travelex counter at MAN. easy money:)

[ExXB]

Rowley

If £125 was the same as €250 then it would be good. But at today's rate it should be closer to £212. By all means volunteer, but ask for something closer to what they would have to pay to offload you.

[rowly6339]

This was 10 years ago now but now i always try for money and an upgrade otherwise i just say no.