98.8% Falkland Islanders vote to stay British

[NutLoose]

Phew, close run thing, only three said no. :E

No suprise there then, though the BBC reporter kept wittering on about dependency and the UN.. Talk about a stuck record, she was painful to listen too. You got the feeling that because she wasn't getting the answer she wanted she would repeat the questions parrot fashion until she did. The Falklands spokesman even had to correct her a couple of times on some of the key facts.

92% turn out. :ok:


..

[Abbey Road]

NutLoose, on a 92% turnout of registered voters, with 98.8% of those voting to remain British, does not mean that "98.8% Falkland Islanders vote to stay British". As overwhelming as the vote result is, your thread title is technically incorrect. ;)

[India Four Two]

I hope those three keep quiet about their opinions, or they may have to emigrate!

[500N]

I hope the British Gov't waves it in the face of the UN
the next time this subject comes up as "already decided
as per how the UN likes it to be, by a vote" :O

[sisemen]

Should be easy enough to name the 8% that couldn't be arsed to vote and to name the 3 that voted against. :E

[Tashengurt]

The others may have been spoiled ballots rather than no votes.


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[cokecan]

I42 - theres no need for them to keep quiet, independence from the UK is not a frowned upon view in Falklands society, its a minority view, but an entrely acceptable one - the reason almost no one votes for it is that almost everyone on the believes that if they became independant, and the UK military left, they'd be Argentine citizens within the week.

if they trusted Argentina not to either invade, or coerce them into 'choosing' to become part of Argentina, or indeed trusted the rest of the World - the US primarily - to uphold their right to self determination as a small independant country, there would, in my view, probably be a 10% for independence (legal independance, rather that cultural/societal detachment from the UK) - but they don't trust Argentina a nanometer, nor the rest of the world, so for them the reality of independance doesn't really exist...

[keesje]

99.8%.. feels a bit Soviet don't it?

obviously not normal

[cokecan]

Knob, yes, its normal - international election monitors were in attendance, and their report is available on the FIG website.

all above board, no problems as far as they are concerned.

99.8% results aren't that unusual - just look at your failure rate with women...

[sisemen]

coke - brilliant rejoinder :ok:

[Torque Tonight]

I see our FI troll has awoken. No doubt the Argie govt will apply similar logic to an unambiguous, expected landslide vote.

[Courtney Mil]

Good answer, Cokecan. I didn't see the original post as the Argie Dutchman is on my ignore list, but I can guess.

As we now have the result we all expected, that must be the end of it then. Hurrah!:D

[Nimbus20]

Mate, good of you to turn up and show your federalist Eurocommission principles (ie if you dont like the result then challenge, challenge and re-vote until you get the result you want).

Might you not want to accuse the "so-called" independant observers (some of whom were from South American countries despite an Argentine request that they boycott it and prevent an attempt at legitimising it) of being Stalinist, British lackeys?

ps: you might want to turn your not-inconsiderable capabilities and interpersonal skills towards your own countrymen - who seem to be increasingly less enamoured with signing Dutch sovereignty over to the Eurocommisioners.

Get with the programme - you're in danger of being so 2012!

[teeteringhead]

NutLoose, on a 92% turnout of registered voters, with 98.8% of those voting to remain British, does not mean that "98.8% Falkland Islanders vote to stay British". ... oh golly gosh! That means a mere 90.896% actually voted to stay.

For comparison, what proportion of our electorate voted for any of our politicians!

[keesje]

I'm perfectly convinced the elections were properly done, honestly counted, observed etc. No doubts whatever that isn't the issue.

But still 99%.. did any UK mainland election ever have that score?

If the Dutch Antilles ever have an election with a 99% pro government vote, the media would have a field day, biting cartoons everywhere, a slightly embarrassed PM would meet laughter all around.

But obviously this is different. Congratulations with the 99% approval.

http://www.netanimations.net/Great-Britain-120-animated-flag-gifs.gif

;)

[NutLoose]

My results and percentage voted were lifted off the BBC newsflash last night, I simply quoted their figures... Right or wrong.

I see some on here also have added to the result as well up from 98.8% to 99.8%

They did say there were a couple of Argentinians on the Island eligible to vote, so may be the mystery 3.

[teeteringhead]

But you are not comparing like with like keesje, when you make comparisons with the Dutch Antilles.

In the Falklands, the actual numbers are so small. Total population is less than 3 000, compared with 300 000+ for Dutch Antilles, and the electorate there is only about 1 500.

Moreover, about half the population - and so presumably half the electorate - live in one "city" (well, it's got a cathedral!): Xxxx Stanley.

Nothing dodgy at all mate .......:ok:

Edited in deference to Courtney Mil's revelations on naming convention ;)

[Nimbus20]

..there's another reason that you might wish to consider:

the high turnout is due to the fact that the islanders have experienced both forms of administration and feel STRONGLY about their preference.

God forbid that people might actually WANT to be British, or governed by Britain. I notice a similar situation in Gibraltar, too.

:confused:

[Courtney Mil]

The BBC had trouble with this this morning.

There is some difficulty over the correct name of the capital. Early despatches contain reference to both Port Stanley and Stanley. Port Stanley was accepted by the Naming Commission set up in 1943 to consider the names then being included on the War Office maps. Local opinion differs on the matter, but there is no doubt that Stanley is now common usage and has been for some considerable time. The capital is defined as Stanley in the Interpretation and General Law Ordinance. In the circumstances I would advise that the correct name for the capital is Stanley.

[NutLoose]

Last night the reporter was calling it a dependency, it was only when she was corrected again by an Islander who pointed out that they are not a dependency, but British overseas territory she conceded and said she would need to read up on it.

It's ok all this we inherited the Falklands from Spain and you seized it so it is rightfully ours malarkey, but you could turn that round equally and say the Argentinians (or should we say originally Spain) stole the country from the indigenous population.... Where would it stop, could we claim the USA back off the population as it was stolen from us and under the Argeninian argument, its nothing to do with the populace.. Or perhaps they in turn should hand it back to the Indian tribes we all stole it off.

[Buster Hyman]

The three people that voted against it, Carlos, Sergio, and Diego, were unavailable for comment...

[airborne_artist]

Let's hope Stanley is in the correct place now.

When Pere Artist was Driver, Ship the big red bathtub took delivery of one of the first GPS systems.

Moored alongside the jetty the GPS showed that they were half-way between John Street and Fitzroy Road.

You'd have thought that the hydrographer who drew the chart in 1872 would have been more accurate :ok:

[AR1]

The great thing about democracy is that 3 people can express a preference for something else.
Picking up on another point regarding the turnout, it proves that the politically and socially motivated will always vote, something our too comfortable home electorate might chose to remember instead of whining about the apparent rise in popularity of some other parties in recent times.

[SASless]

We must be very considerate of the Minority view mustn't we?

[Courtney Mil]

Naah! Not when it's that small anyway and certainly not if we don't like their point of view.

[PhilipG]

At least there were recorded votes against the resolution, otherwise it might have looked like a stitch up not unlike the votes used to be in Iraq, Argentina could then have gone to the UN complaining about unfair polling....;)

[November4]

Britain must have something going for it if 99.8% of the FI and 98.48% of Gibraltar voted (in 2002) to remain British.

[mole man]

Might be the OIL

Mole Man:ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting that the cousins have hijacked the parallel thread on this subject on JB and it's become a "Bash Barry (Obama)" thread. Still, that's JB I suppose, maybe I'll start a discussion about the Huhne/Price affair on US Hamsterwheel - just to see if any of them have heard of it!

[ACW418]

Didn't know there was oil in Gibraltar!

[NutLoose]

Britain must have something going for it if 99.8% of the FI and 98.48% of Gibraltar voted (in 2002) to remain British.


Then all we need now is the Scottish one :ok:

[MAINJAFAD]

The three people that voted against it, Carlos, Sergio, and Diego, were unavailable for comment...

Well, the no vote was 50% higher than I expected, the French couple on West Falkland must have a kid who is old enough to vote. (Carlos, Sergio and Diego in fact all voted Yes!!!)

[McGoonagall]

Desperate Alec has had a bill introduced today in the Jockistan parliament to allow 16 and 17 year old residents the right to vote in elections and any referenda.

Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie, comes to mind. :hmm:

[Wander00]

It used to be called Gerrymandering!

[AR1]

The last time I heard the word Gerrymander was in the Stranglers song 'Nuclear Device'!

[alwayslookingup]

Ref Post #33, I think the question should be why aren't ALL 16 & 17 yr olds in the whole of the UK permitted to vote? They pay taxes, can be married, join up etc etc.

And here's a question. If the majority vote in Scotland in Oct 2014 is in favour of entering into negotiations to withdraw from Great Britain, will all posters on this thread be so effusive in their commendation of democracy? Scots aren't stupid and if the vote does go the way of Independence it will be because it is the settled will of the Scottish people, just as it is now demonstrably the settled will of the Falkland Islanders to remain an overseas UK territory. What's the problem with that?

[2close]

Has a recount been demanded? ;)

[Courtney Mil]

I was going to post here saying something about how half our 16 year olds can hardly read let alone understand the implications of separation. But I changed my mind.

[AR1]

Personally, if FI had have voted out, that would be their right and I'd have respected it. Same with Scotland.

[NutLoose]

Ref Post #33, I think the question should be why aren't ALL 16 & 17 yr olds in the whole of the UK permitted to vote? They pay taxes, can be married, join up etc etc.

I'll drink to that, especially as they cannot. :ok:

[Private jet]

Apparently the Falklands are a "self governing autonomous overseas territory with the UK responsible for defence and foreign affairs." So basically the UK is being used by the Falklanders to protect themselves from the Argentinians and thats about it. Forget all that "sovereignty" rhetoric, i suspect that when the oil is finally flowing the UK will see precious little of the revenue and the islanders will be over here acting like the new Qataris...:suspect:

[dctyke]

Just dont ask the Popes oppinion!

[Genstabler]

If you are aged 70 and sharp as a needle you still can no longer drive a minibus or do jury service. A snotty nosed illiterate 16 year old soon will though.

[TURIN]

You lot must have some really orrible kids/grandkids.

They're a lovely bunch round ere. Let em vote I say.

I blame the parents/grandparents. :E

[Lima Juliet]

In one week they have effectively lost the islands but gained a Papacy BBC News - Argentina's Jorge Mario Bergoglio elected Pope (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21777494)

Will this make Kirchner Stfu?

LJ

[NutLoose]

76 years old, wonder how long he will last..

[Biggus]

...is he still allowed to drive a minibus?

[ExAscoteer]

Probably not, but I bet he smells of wee too.

[TomJoad]

Desperate Alec has had a bill introduced today in the Jockistan parliament to allow 16 and 17 year old residents the right to vote in elections and any referenda.

Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie, comes to mind. :hmm:


Curious use of such pejorative term - can only mean that what will follow will be an unbiased, informed comment :)

I feel sorry for you that you consider our young people to be in such a paralous state that despite being able to marry, pay tax and serve in HM forces (as pointed out) that you consider they are not fit to take part in the democratic processes that will shape their future lives. The consequences of the referendum will have greater impact on their lives than it will their parents, you or I - let them have their say. The likelihood of teenagers coming out to vote in such numbers as to influence the vote does not stack up as has been reflected upon by informed political commentators. Your Daily Mail may be useful for the crossword and lighting the woodburner but little else.;)

As for claims of gerrymandering (not yours) - then why not, it is after all in the finest traditions of independence referrenda as employed by the national government in the 1979 referendum. The 40 % franchise threshold was never sought for westminster elections - shame that. So come, on stop being grumpy of Bedfordshire, give the bairns more credit - put aside the little Englander and the xenophobic bile and stop commenting on things of which you have no knowledge.:ok:

[TomJoad]

Just dont ask the Popes oppinion!

If you did, you would find he is no friend of the Argentine government. He has been a very outspoken critic of the government, particularly concerning the so called "disapeared".

[cokecan]

Tom,

turns out he has his own skeletons in that particular cupboard.

Guardian going to town on it now, and its not pretty - taking 'giving unto Ceasar' a bit far...

[TomJoad]

Ref Post #33, I think the question should be why aren't ALL 16 & 17 yr olds in the whole of the UK permitted to vote? They pay taxes, can be married, join up etc etc.

And here's a question. If the majority vote in Scotland in Oct 2014 is in favour of entering into negotiations to withdraw from Great Britain, will all posters on this thread be so effusive in their commendation of democracy? Scots aren't stupid and if the vote does go the way of Independence it will be because it is the settled will of the Scottish people, just as it is now demonstrably the settled will of the Falkland Islanders to remain an overseas UK territory. What's the problem with that?

Always - you have to give them some allowance, it's a fight or flight response. Such commentators don't understand the issues, they have not been following nor been alive to the changes taking place within the UK post devolution. It's as though they have just woken up and realized that they are no longer at home but in residential care. They are confused, they mistakenly believe that the desire to explore and debate the case for independence is a comment against the rest of the UK rather than an opportunity for a part of the UK to grow and travel in another direction. So just as you would when visiting an elderly relative in a retirement home - go easy on them, don't expect to much in cogent debate.:hmm:

[Fareastdriver]

As an Argentinian is now the Pope he is going to have to follow the Papal Bull of 1493 and tell Mrs Motormouth that the southern half of South America belongs to Spain.

[TomJoad]

Tom,

turns out he has his own skeletons in that particular cupboard.

Guardian going to town on it now, and its not pretty - taking 'giving unto Ceasar' a bit far...

"In his book, El Silencio, a prominent Argentinian journalist alleged that he connived in the abduction of two Jesuit priests by the military junta in the so-called "dirty war". He denies the accusation." - From Guardian

That's all I could find !

[cokecan]

Tom,

this was on the Grinaud earlier - same story, more meat


The most well-known episode relates to the abduction of two Jesuits whom the military government secretly jailed for their work in poor neighborhoods.
According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.
Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen survived five months of imprisonment.
"History condemns him. It shows him to be opposed to all innovation in the Church and above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said

[Tankertrashnav]

76 years old, wonder how long he will last..


I think he's good for a few years yet - looked pretty ok tonight on TV. Apparently has given up all the trappings as a Cardinal - got rid of his chauffeur and gets the bus to work, does his own cooking etc etc. If he gets rid of a load of the trappings which surround the church at the top he'll be worth it just for that.

[TomJoad]

Tom,

this was on the Grinaud earlier - same story, more meat


The most well-known episode relates to the abduction of two Jesuits whom the military government secretly jailed for their work in poor neighborhoods.
According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.
Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen survived five months of imprisonment.
"History condemns him. It shows him to be opposed to all innovation in the Church and above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said

Cheers Cokecan. No doubt as always there will be another side to this story - I'll reserve comment suffice to say sometimes you have to shake hands with the devil before you kick the **** out of him. The church operates in a number of repressive regimes around the world - sometimes you need to be pragmatic. As a parallel think about some of the dubious things the UK has done in the name of maintaining diplomacy. Let's give him a chance, whatever your views on the church it does represent a chunk of humanity. Let's hope he has the courage to reform what needs to reform and lead where leadership is needed.

[NutLoose]

I'll reserve comment suffice to say sometimes you have to shake hands with the devil before you kick the **** out of him

That tickles the funny bone
:D:D

[dat581]

Could a poll be put to the Argentine people asking how many want to go and live in the Falklands?

[Biggus]

I'm reluctant to post this on here, for fear of starting another outburst of rabid comments, but, in terms of the discussion on 16-17 year olds voting in the Scottish independence referendum, here's an interesting article on the 16/18 differences debate:

BBC News - The strange status of 16-year-olds (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21742512)

[OutlawPete]

That is indeed an interesting article, Biggus and it raises a number of issues.
Speaking as someone who is responsible for a number of young adults in a professional capacity, I believe they are entitled to their right to voice an opinion.
Do they have enough experience or information to make an informed choice or would they just vote as their parents did?
We could say the same thing about 20, 30...40 year olds.



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[Biggus]

I'm not saying that 16 yr olds should or shouldn't be able to vote. My only point is that when people say things like "16 yr olds are old enough to marry, serve in HM Forces....so they should be able to ????? as well....", it really isn't as simple as that.

As this article points out, to join the Army at 16 you need your parents permission, you won't be sent to a war zone until you are over 18, etc. In the same way you need parental consent in England and Wales to marry at 16, .... well the article explains it better than I can. The point is, there seems to be a transitional period between 16 and 18, where you can start to do certain things but often still have various forms of legal protection in the meantime. It's a grey area, a bit less black and white as some people commenting on here seem to imply.

[TomJoad]

I'm not saying that 16 yr olds should or shouldn't be able to vote. My only point is that when people say things like "16 yr olds are old enough to marry, serve in HM Forces....so they should be able to ????? as well....", it really isn't as simple as that.

As this article points out, to join the Army at 16 you need your parents permission, you won't be sent to a war zone until you are over 18, etc. In the same way you need parental consent in England and Wales to marry at 16, .... well the article explains it better than I can. The point is, there seems to be a transitional period between 16 and 18, where you can start to do certain things but often still have various forms of legal protection in the meantime. It's a grey area, a bit less black and white as some people commenting on here seem to imply.

See your point Biggus however, I do not believe that parental permission is germane to the argument. The point wrt 16 year olds' eligibility to join HM forces is that they are deemed competent enough to serve their country in whatever capacity. Serving your country and paying tax should be merit enough to be rewarded with the right to vote surely. Paying income taxes in any capacity should be merit enough to be rewarded with the right to vote. No tax without representation as the saying goes. As for marriage, again see your point; however, in Scotland as you know, no parental permission in required. So I see no shades of grey, but even accepting your notion of a transitional process from 16 to full adult hood - fine, introduce voting at 16 as one of the first transitional stages. What better introduction to get the youth interested and practised in civic responsibilities. As for interest and capability among that age group , take a look at the Scottish Youth Parliament Elections which are running right now (I'm sure there must be something similar in England). As a teacher in the Scottish secondary education sector I have first hand experience of the commitment, understanding and pragmatism our young people when debating issues which affect them. Are they capable of making an informed vote - as capable as any other voter without a shadow of doubt.

As for your hesitance in making comment re specious and bigoted remarks, then I share your concerns wholeheartedly. Take a wander through this and the Scottish Air Force thread and note occurrences of pejorative comments re "jockistan" "wee eck" “congenital mercenaries” , “Whingers of the North”, “Go and toss your cabers has been my attitude ever since” etc etc. Since entering teaching some 7 years ago I was struck and remain so by the tolerance I find amongst our young people towards each other. They are not as afraid of difference as past generations have been (including us) , indeed they celebrate it. Should they have a place in shaping the adult world which they are about to live - I think so and I think it will be the better for it.

[keesje]

Since entering teaching some 7 years ago I was struck and remain so by the tolerance I find amongst our young people towards each other. They are not as afraid of difference as past generations have been (including us) , indeed they celebrate it.

Well maybe they are taught to be more tolerant, celebrate diversity and be less afraid by a generation that was raised otherwise..

[TomJoad]

Well maybe they are taught to be more tolerant, celebrate diversity and be less afraid by a generation that was raised otherwise..

Who knows; maybee as is the want of teenagers they saw how their elders and so called betters behave and decided themselves on a better path. Whatever the reason, they have it, let them use it.:ok:

[Wander00]

So now there is an Argentinian pope who supports the Argentinian view on the Falklands, will he be trying to make it an act of faith for 1.2 billion catholics

[AR1]

Or maybe as teenagers, they simply haven't been exposed to the real nature of 'humanity'.

[Tankertrashnav]

So now there is an Argentinian pope who supports the Argentinian view on the Falklands, will he be trying to make it an act of faith for 1.2 billion catholics


No he won't.

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, TTN, he won't.

Victor Bulmer-Thomas, an associate fellow at Chatham House, said that Fernández would no doubt try to use Francis's previous statements as propaganda but it was unlikely he would enter the debate. "Of course, Argentina will refer to the fact that he made these statements," said Bulmer-Thomas. "It's nice for them but I can't see it having any impact beyond that."

He added: "I imagine he would avoid it like the plague. As a good Argentinian, it was perfectly natural for him to support the position that most Argentinians take, but he's not representing Argentinians now but all Catholics ... You look at the list of things this poor man has to deal with and the Falklands has got to be way down."

Papal historian Michael Walsh echoed Bulmer-Thomas's comments, saying: "He's very unlikely to say anything that would upset one side rather than the other, although I can't help feeling it might be a long time before he gets an invitation to Britain."

[keesje]

I can't help feeling it might be a long time before he gets an invitation to Britain."

why is that?