So GA is becoming a career?

[The Green Goblin]

Very interesting what is happening out there in GA right now.

Careflight paying upwards of 130K to drive a Kingair.

Pearl paying (EBA dependent) 113k Year 1 Metro Captain.

Now Hardy offering up to 90k to be a 402/404 Checkie :cool:

With major Australian domestic/international Airlines paying starting wages below 100k it's an interesting topic.

In the 80s a GA single engine driver earnt about the same salary as a new teacher.

Now a Teacher is earning about the starting salary of an airline Pilot.

If you want to attract the best, you need to pay the money for them. I hope the Jetstar EBA negotiations address this, along with QF short haul and Virgin.

Airlines need to stop comparing against each other in the race to the bottom and have a look at the industry as a whole and then peg it to other industries of comparable discipline.

If you don't recognise the value of Pilot wages, the Pilots wont recognise the value of the airline management. You can save in one sector the entire flights muffins sales if you select a better level, play with the cost index and get track shortening.

Treat the folk upfront with disdain and there is no motivation to try. The only motivation is to get there as quick a possible to get off and go home.....

[Oakape]

The way it is going, you will learn to fly, go to the airlines to build hours & then go to GA for your career! Who would have thought? :rolleyes:

[Metro man]

Just watch GA conditions fall if there is a surplus of pilots. It's much easier for a large group of pilots in one company to negotiate, than it is for small groups of pilots in many companies.

Back in 1999 first year Metro F/O award was $27 158, Captain pulled in around $50 000. Baggage handlers in the airlines and refuellers were nearer to $70 000.

Current GA conditions are simply supply and demand which could change, where as airlines have always had "good" pay after a few years in.

[Howard Hughes]

What are the figures now Metro Man? Would expect the baggage handler is not ahead these days!

[neville_nobody]

Careflight paying upwards of 130K to drive a Kingair.

Pearl paying (EBA dependent) 113k Year 1 Metro Captain.

Now Hardy offering up to 90k to be a 402/404 Checkie

With major Australian domestic/international Airlines paying starting wages below 100k it's an interesting topic.

What does 100k a year actually get you in Darwin these days? Could you feed a family and buy a house on that sort if money?

I would suggest that it is a bit of a mirage in that the extra cash you get now is just eaten up by tax/inflation/cost of living.

GA could offer some appeal if the owners offered decent stable lifestyles but I doubt that there will be much flow out of airlines to go fly 30 year old aircraft in Darwin.

Back in 1999 first year Metro F/O award was $27 158, Captain pulled in around $50 000. Baggage handlers in the airlines and refuellers were nearer to $70 000

And you could buy a house for 250k.

[maxgrad]

130k king air in Careflight? Really?
Reliable source?

[pull-up-terrain]

Now a Teacher is earning about the starting salary of an airline Pilot.

If you are referring to high school and primary school teachers what airlines are paying their FO's $55k-$65 per year? Last time i looked at EBA's for airlines that operate anything bigger than a F100/717 they were earning a base salary a lot more than $65k and senior FO's for almost all airlines were earning $100k+ base salary. The only exception being those Jetstar A320 junior FO's.

[pull-up-terrain]

21 years old, currently sitting around 900 hours, company is showing me progression, no current commitments in life, $63k salary (after 5 months employment) cheap rent and subsidised power/gas... GA feels like a good career to me.
Well, for now. Civilisation would be nice

Is that flying twins?

[avconnection]

The Department of Education - Teaching WA - Salaries and teaching levels (http://www.det.wa.edu.au/teachingwa/detcms/navigation/working-in-a-public-school/salaries-and-teaching-levels/?page=2&tab=Main)

Looks like some airline FO wages to me.

I know a few guys who can't afford to leave their GA jobs. It's all well and good to say you will earn more money in 5 years time, but the bank still wants their money today, they're not gambling on whether you can get command.

[PookeyMaster]

The Department of Education - Teaching WA - Salaries and teaching levels (http://www.det.wa.edu.au/teachingwa/detcms/navigation/working-in-a-public-school/salaries-and-teaching-levels/?page=2&tab=Main)

Looks like some airline FO wages to me.

I know a few guys who can't afford to leave their GA jobs. It's all well and good to say you will earn more money in 5 years time, but the bank still wants their money today, they're not gambling on whether you can get command.

The graduate teacher link has them starting on $60k and it takes them ten years to reach $90k. I'd say you could probably get more than that in less time if you are a dedicated Pilot who progresses through the ranks in a reasonable timeframe.

[2p!ssed2drive]

I'm not sure what banner of aviation the RFDS fits under (GA or otherwise?) but I have a friend there who is on a very... Very attractive salary.
They're paying half his yearly mortgage.
Some 15-20k of his yearly wage is not taxed (due to working in a not-for-profit sector)
Super
And his wage on top of that- not bad if you ask me... And from what I hear, truly rewarding work.

[Ozgrade3]

Baggage handlers making 70 grand?????? CRAP. . I did baggage handling for 5 years and I didnt get near that figure. I think my best year was 58K.........BUT....and its a big BUT......I was averaging 135 hrs a fortnight, and some fortnights toped 150 hrs.

[NIK320]

Ozgrade 3 you're on the wrong end of the belt..
I was CSA/Guest services or whatever they want to call checkin these days for 6 years and didn't go less than 65k. It helps when your airline isn't tight and pays penalty rates on just about every shift.
Unfortunately the local flying school took it all away quicker than I could gather
it :}

[Wally Mk2]

I'm with you 'max', $130K to drive a Beech, I might need that...what was the name of the truck driving school Mav?............Truck Masters?:E

In another life back in the 80's I was pulling in way more than the guys I was gassing up, poor buggers almost felt sorry for them:ok:

Wmk2

[chimbu warrior]

And then there is this...........

fsacadet (http://www.fsacadet.info/aboutus.html)

The website appears to devote waaaaaaay too much space to their "cadetship". Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. :yuk:

[RHLMcG]

Chimbu, mate, does that sound a little bit like AAA Airlines of Bartsch and Co. fame ?

With an Irish Concorde, yet ?

[Wildpilot]

Anyone know what a van driver up north would be on roughly these days and if accom is normally left to the pilot or provided with any operators.

[kalavo]

I hear Hardy's are now asking for piston time on resumes as too many cadets trying to jump on the GA bandwagon and mistreating the 400 series Cessnas...

Mind you, work a lot harder Single Pilot IFR. It's no wonder that's where the big bucks are.

[lkp]

Hi, i have Indian CPL n FIR with 1135 hrs. what are the chances to get job after CASA conversion.

[coddyengineer]

Neville is right about the 100k up this way . 2 bedroom unit 420k-480k rent from
430$-500$ . If you want the wide open space of a house well your looking at 600k-850k rent 600$-900$ per week ,that,s if you can find one and get the ok from the real/agent from 20-30 applicants .
By the way those units and house,s above are the cheap ones ,get my drift .
then there the elec bills ( 650-1100$ a quarter) and fuel 1.50-1.65L.
Thats why they are offering so much mulla at the moment ,you wouldn,t come here for less then a 100k these days or you will be on the bread line for sure !.
Darwin is just a big FIFO base now which is sad for us long time residents :(.
the old saying goes you dont get anything for nothing .
Still its a great place to get those hour,s up and have a cold beer and relax.
Cheers coddy

[JustOnePilot]

What are the chances to get a job when coming there with a working holiday visa?

[lkp]

thanks...
can i do some work on study visa?

[TexanPilot]

From what I understand Toll's ATR Capt earn $120+ with every weekend and public holiday off. Not a bad gig.

[Bonaza]

Add 20k to that figure and your closer to the mark. Not bad for a two to three day a week job!

[the_rookie]

mother of god!

[h.o.t.a.s.]

AviatorDownunder,

Without knowing your full situation, or meaning to be accusatory, you seem to be a fantastic example of why so many in the industry warn against jumping into cadetships or 'accelerated' airline pilot programs, aimed at those blinded by SJS (shiny jet syndrome:8 )

It does sound from your posts that you are the victim of a change of heart, and a few extra years of wisdom, seeing that certain things may not be all they are cracked up to be.

Ultimately, in this industry, there is nothing like 'owning' your qualifications, and having them backed up with a few years of experience in the school of hard knocks that is G.A.
You should be a shining example to all of those, busting their arses up north, flying burnt out ****eboxes and wondering WHY?!?!?:ugh:; that while you may question it now, ultimately, what you are doing will pay off in the long term.

If airline flying is for you, great, scaring the crap out of yourself a few times in GA will help to make you a better addition to any airlines roster. If airlines turn out to not be what you expected, well, then you have the experience to make a choice to go back and find one of those more adventurous careers that are slowly becoming as rewarding financially as they are for the aviation nerd in you!

As it turns out, as frustrating as my time in GA could be sometimes, I wouldn't give back a second of it. You couldn't buy the life I lived up north during those years. They are some of the best years of my life and I'm sure many others feel the same.


If you feel that you wish to return to exciting flying (and if you aren't genetically blessed enough to have the eyesight and body size for the military, then that means GA), I would recommend converting your qualifications, and getting an instructors rating with a school that will attempt to give you the experience to at least get you to a grade 2 rating.

Instructing might not be glamorous, but As someone who's been an Airline pilot you would be an excellent mentor to people coming up through the ranks. Able to give an experienced perspective to a flying schools students (and perhaps fellow instructors:E:E), on the realities of airline life, and provide an alternative opinion on other career options for pilots in this country.

As the subject matter of this thread indicates, the opportunities are out there, but you'll probably have to take a backward step or two to start climbing the ladder again.

[j3pipercub]

AD,

Did you pay for line training or accept lower conditions than your contemporaries?

j3

[geeup]

IMHO a career in GA should pay more then the airlines as more often then not it is a much harder job.

I do well in GA and have no intention of ever leaving it for less money and conditions ;)

Many have tried to come back to GA from an airline but I am yet to see any of them work out :oh:

[j3pipercub]

Thankyou for answering my question while not answering my question. You told me everything I needed to know.

j3

[DropYourSocks]

On another note, I was wondering what some of the salaries are for the upper end of GA, and what qualifications are needed to get there? I really like the GA lifestyle so far and am not really airline orientated, but I don't know where the upper limit to GA is.

[avconnection]

Many have tried to come back to GA from an airline but I am yet to see any of them work out

Bull****, the biggest issue is most are used to high standards of airlines but want the thrill, lifestyle and challenge of GA (without the added labour) and there are very few positions that offer that balance. This doesn't mean they don't work out, they just realise the rose tinted glasses of aviation have turned a stale grey.

Even in the best GA jobs, some airline guys struggle with the fact that it's still GA. Once the excitement of change subdues, they will either sit back and enjoy the flying, becoming completely detached from the typical BS of GA or they become so involved and caught up in it that they go back to what's easy and get into another airline.

Of the guys I've seen who go back to GA from airlines, 100% have this realisation and *60% have the maturity and life experience to realise you are going to find fault with every job and look for the positives in what they do. The other *40% will only find faults (not that they can be blamed, they are usually perfectionist and brilliant operators).

*Not actual percentages.

Typical top end GA requirements are in the order of 500 turbine cmd, 1000 ME cmd, 500night, 2500-3500TT and 5 renewals. This by no means is representative of all companies however it is a good ball park for companies like RFDS, Pel-Air, Pearl, Toll, GAM Do, Surveillance etc. Add 250-500 jet (desirable) as applicable.

Salaries range from $85-155k, depending on what you call "GA" and level. CP's can earn, in some cases, towards $200k.

Bear in mind there are probably less than 1000 top GA jobs in Aus.

[clear to land]

GA pinnacle-probably depends what sort of flying you actually want to do. There is of course RFDS (In B200's not PC-12's ;) ), then there is Coastwatch, or you could get yourself the experience to do tours in/out of PNG. All are financially rewarding, with the former also being personally/professionally rewarding. They are 'lifestyle' choices and will require a non-capital city lifestyle (except Darwin for Coastwatch) until you get seniority. I have done 2 of the 3 and miss both for different reasons.

[pithblot]

AD it is possible to make it in GA after airlines, but those I've met have mostly been at or near the end of their airline career. The notable exception was the airline pilots who found themselves financially distressed in 1989 and drifted back into GA. Some stayed and did OK but most moved on to other pastures. Some moved out of the industry all together.

Which brings me to this hackneyed phrase: flying is the best job in the world, and the worst career. This is especially true of GA which is so very cyclical. The peaks are very high and the troughs very deep. Be prepared to lose your job or be under employed at least once and you will probably be kicked on your way up and on the way down too. Not many GA pilots get to take Long Service Leave. (I know there are exceptions, and you guys prove the rule.) The point is, keep your other skill set sharp. Be prepared to fall back on your other skills to put food on the table when times are lean or things turn ugly.

I don't see any reason why you can not have a successful shot at GA if you really do want to give up airlines. You will just need to start at the bottom, like everyone else and work your way up. Frankly I think a lot of operators would view you quite favourably because you are not likely to be enticed back to airlines and you have some proven experience in persevering with a structured training and checking programme - something that is becoming ever more relevant in GA.

I recon you should enter GA via an instructors rating. Start in one of the pilot factories and stay there until you have an A Grade or Grade One (or whatever they call the things these days) instructors rating with IFR and Multi Engine training approvals. When you have these qualifications you will have opened up a career within GA. You will be looked at twice by potential employers, with a view to having you involved in training and checking and you will be protected a little from the troughs I mentioned earlier. (You will still do plenty of line flying, in GA you always will).

Have you considered a career as a military pilot?

All the best with whatever you choose.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

GA or perhaps corporate to be more precise...... is a fantastic career, and since I was 18 it has been my life...the most fantastic job one could ever wish for.
OK I started on Single Piper, got my CPL and flew Single Cessna.
Progressed up and now on Gulfstream 550.
From 18 to 65, and never regretted one moment. Never flew an airliner of fighter.

Glf