Family building own airport in QLD

[2p!ssed2drive]

Why not!

http://www.news.com.au/travel/australia/high-flying-family-build-own-airport-in-toowoomba/story-e6frfq89-1226594237298


DYNASTY: Joe, Henry, Neil, John and Denis Wagner on the runway site. Pic: David Martinelli
ONE of Queensland's wealthiest families has come up with a dramatic solution to Brisbane Airport's woes - they are building their own airport.
The Toowoomba-based Wagners - who own a construction, infrastructure and engineering empire - have started work on the $100 million-plus Wellcamp Airport on the inland city's western outskirts.

Brisbane to lose millions over runway stoush
The facility, with a 2.87km runway capable of taking jets up to Boeing 747s, will be in use by the second half of next year and is expected to handle 500,000 passengers a year by 2019.

"It is bold," John Wagner said. "This will be a total game-changer for Toowoomba and our region."

Have you been delayed? Share your story on Twitter at #BNELATEAGAIN or email [email protected]

The site of the new Toowoomba airport. Pic: David Martinelli
It was designed primarily as a gateway for fly-in fly-out workers and charter services to and from the booming mining and gas regions of the Surat, Galilee and Bowen Basins, but the Wagners also want regular scheduled passenger services.

"We've had discussions with airlines," Mr Wagner said. "Because no-one has built an airport like this, a lot of people were sceptical early on.

"But the tide has turned and there is a lot of interest now they can see it's a reality."

Mr Wagner says that as the largest inland city in Australia after Canberra, Toowoomba will be an attractive destination for operators.

And he believes Wellcamp Airport will be a viable alternative to Brisbane Airport which is struggling to fund a new parallel runway project.


View from what will be the centre of the 3km long runway being built by the Wagner Family. Pic: David Martinelli
"We don't know how the whole Brisbane Airport situation will play out," Mr Wagner said. "At best, their new runway will not be ready until 2020, or 2022 more likely."

The Wagners were No.11 on The Sunday Mail Queensland's Top 150 Rich List last year with estimated fortune of $613 million.

[Howard Hughes]

Do they want to build one in Sydney too? ;)

[bodybag]

"hope they have done their homework on weather, prevailing winds & terrain clearance for instrument approaches & takeoff splays"

Your a genius mate. It's a good job you thought of that!:ok:

[Tinstaafl]

Homework? You mean like the people that built TWB right on the edge of the escarpment? Move only a few nm west and the elevation reduces a bit and the topography is generally flatter with a beneficial effect on local weather.

[Flying Binghi]

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/489297-wagners-new-toowoomba-airport.html


via Oakape;

I hope they have done their homework on weather, prevailing winds & terrain clearance for instrument approaches & takeoff splays.


Wagners been around Toowoomba and aviation fer a while now. Probably got a little experience of the place by now..:cool:





.

[bodybag]

If you really think that in this day and age anybody builds an IFR airport (in the western world) capable of handling 747's without considering ALL of those things very carefully you are of very simple mind..:D
I am actually not very smart at all but you are making me feel like a genius.

[VH-XXX]

I hope they have done their homework on weather, prevailing winds

The Americans got over than problem with the B52's by designing an undercarriage that turned to allow a crabbed landing of up to 20 degrees. Clever :ok:

[nomorecatering]

2800m runway.........isnt that a wee bit on the short side for heavy Boeing/Airbus international ops? Would have thought 3500m or more was desireable. Surely they can't just be aiming for domestic ops.

What ever the case, I do applaud someone with big enough coconuts to say "up yours" and decide to build something. Lets back this guy, support him. We need more like him.

Has anyone noticed 60s black and white films from the US on bulding bridges, roads, factories.....the word "progress" comes up all the time, you never seem to hear it these days.

[Wally Mk2]

.............'nom' there's plenty of progress, just look at the constant car park & retail outlet construction going on around every major drome in Aus, Their on top of it there where they know they can make $$$$. Rwy'ss & infrastructure just add huge costs for even more delays. Remember build a wider fwy to 'park' more cars on, Melb Syd are experts at that..... same deal with planes more rwy's means more congestion, no answer we have painted ourselves into a corner from which we will never be able to get out of!

I hope the Toowoomba project is a great success if their smart enuf they can sit back & watch the A/C holding for Brissy & offer a relief option at a Ldg fee that will be cheaper than wasting gas:ok:

Wmk2

[Howard Hughes]

I hope the Toowoomba project is a great success if their smart enuf they can sit back & watch the A/C holding for Brissy & offer a relief option at a Ldg fee that will be cheaper than wasting gas
All they need to do now is build a high speed rail link to the Brisbane CBD!

[bodybag]

Is the late 80's 'this day and age?'
Um.. no. The late 80's was back in the late 80's.
However.. Humour me. Are you suggesting that you know of a major IFR airport built to accommodate 747 size aircraft where nobody thought to consider the weather, the prevailing wind and the terrain clearance for instrument approaches and takeoff splays until after the airport was built?

[Fieldmouse]

will be creaming their trousers over this. An army of bureaucrats will need to be assembled and this will guarantee them work for many, many years.
The Wagners are about to learn what it is to be made to jump through hoops. As we speak, rainforests are being cleared in the Amazon to provide paper for this exercise. I wish 'em luck.

[VH-XXX]

CASA,OTS,AA,Customs,Immigration and a myriad of others

It's taken a long time but it looks like Avalon has achieved international status or will do shortly, so it's not impossible.

[PA39]

Wagners are a great dynasty, smart and if they r going to build an airport then they will build a great airport!

[emergov]

To those having a go at Oakape, and smugly commenting on the brilliance of this project...

would you believe they are planning to build it inside extant military airspace that extends to the ground and that they apparently have no plan for getting access to that airspace other than demanding it? Or that their airspace plan is to get "CASA, OTS, AA, Customs and Immigration" to work it out??

Because that's how this 'great dynasty' is going about business.

[Grogmonster]

EMERGOV. And why should they not be allowed to build inside the airspace on their own land? The cheek of them to think that the Defence Force might actually think it is a good idea and work with the Wagner's. For goodness sake Oakey operates helicopters not 200 F18's. I feel compelled to say something else to you but I am not going to fall into the trap. Perhaps I should ask you nicely to try and see the positive aspects of this proposal.

I for one am watching this process with interest as I fail to see how it cannot work if all the regulators and defence etc get with the programme.

Groggy

[Jabawocky]

Groggie,

There are three kinds of people in this world.

1. Those that make stuff happen
2. Those that watch things happen
3. And those that wondered what the F:mad: happened

Having done business with Henry and Denis in the past, I can see they not mucking around. They never do. And as you will well know, they know a bit about planes. ;)

[emergov]

Grogmonster; they can and will build whatever they want.

I see you share the majority opinion that Defence doesn't really need the resources they have - presumably because training pilots for the defence of Australia is not as important as a private company making money. If I wanted to build a lemonade stand I wouldn't do it in your front yard and then insist you open the gate for each of my customers.

Wagners will make this project happen, and good on them - but they will leverage off your tax dollars through decreased Defence capability to make it work.

[bodybag]

Oakape: You're right. I was being immature. I apologise for any hurt feelings however I just can't get past how stupid and naive your initial and subsequent posts have been.

Emergov: You've come to the right place. I think you and Oakape are going to get along just fine.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Good on 'em! At least someone is doing something about that disaster area at Brisbane airport and surrounds. Let's hope they don't use the same mob for the roads and car parks or Airservices for ATC. Oh sorry forgot, there's a monopoly on the highly efficient, cost effective latter of course.:ok:

[500N]

"At least someone is doing something about that disaster area at Brisbane airport and surrounds. Let's hope they don't use the same mob for the roads and car parks"

Must be the same people they use at Sydney and Melbourne ? :O

[Sunfish]

I think we are seeing the start of something that will replicate itslef all over Australia.

Contrary to received wisdom, not all brillance and money must necessarily flow from Canberra, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.

Technologies now facilitate decentralisation. "The Bush" is not short of money and ideas either.

The benfits of doing it yourself include the ability to tell Canberra or Spring Street to go **** themselves.

To the posters who say "great this is going to fic Brisbanes problems and we need a high speed rail link" I say, really? Think the Wagners did this to fix Brisbanes problems? It may be that they intend to bypass Brisbane entirely.

Similar stuff is going on in Victoria. Regions are asking for at least $4.4 bn in infrastructure according to reports - and if the regions keep getting the short end of the stik when it comes to infrastructure they will start being creative exactly like the Wagners.

The capital cities are a mess - stuck in gridlock and smarter people are getting out.

CASA would be "courageaous" not to support and facilitate this development.

[Jabawocky]

emergov

I think you forget that the taxes paid by people DOING stuff is where the priority lies. YBOK should be sold to Wagners for a cheap price and they expand it into a decent airport.

The Army base should be relocated somewhere else, where some employment and growth would be appreciated.

Solves two things at once!

And before you get started, I am 100% about looking after the ADF, in my opinion they are under resourced. I was and should have joined in 85, for some reason I did engineering instead. Fortunately engineering has done well for me and I now pay several times the average wage in taxes each year, and I am annoyed more of it does not go to the ADF. Ohh and Jnr Jaba is part the way there, so I am not about harming the ADF at gain of private industry.

[500N]

The regions might be asking for 4.4Bn but whether they get it is
a different matter entirely.

Look at Tulla - how many years has it been since a rail link
was first looked at ? And why hasn't a link been built ?
Not sure how true it is but I gather half the reason is the airport
doesn't want a rail link because car parking fees are so lucrative.

[emergov]

Jabbawocky,

I appreciate your position, and in fact I think the Wagner's are on to a good concept here, he certainly has the support of the community, which is convinced it needs a new airport.

But I'm told hundreds of million dollars have been spent on Oakey over the years and that Oakey airspace is unique in Australia - optimised for helo training. We are now cheerfully suggesting government spends that money again because a private company bought some land 10km away from the base and might pay some taxes on future profit.

Good luck to Wagner's, but if CASA kills their proposal, perhaps we could blame a lack of aeronautical chart reading skill rather than blaming Defence for owning an airfield since 1942 and operating the airspace around it for decades.

[601]

If you really think that in this day and age anybody builds an IFR airport (in the western world) capable of handling 747's without considering ALL of those things very carefully you are of very simple mind..

Yes - Brisbane is one example. What combination does Brisbane have during the worst weather for its location.

Rain, low cloud and SE wind.

Sure the majority of wind is NE/SW. But this occurs mainly during benign weather.

Which way is the main runway aligned.

NE/SW

It is fun breaking out at mimina and looking out of the the other side of the cockpit for the runway.

But when it was built by a Department not versed in aviation, you get what you pay for.

As for Okay, the Army took over a civilian airport and moved everyone else out. Maybe they could have another move.

[baswell]

Speaking of Brisbane: whatever happened to that private GA airport project to compete with / replace Archerfield that was in the news a year or so ago?

[hiwaytohell]

bas

Lockyer Valley Airport (see ad on P38 of this month's Aviation Trader)... again another airport that infringes military airspace.

As for Wellcamp the Wagner's need to be commended for their vision and balls to build this. Sure their grandkids might make some money, but the real winner will be the Toowoomba City and surrounding people/businesses that now get a decent airport.

As for Oakey, they can quite easily co-exist and share the small amount of their airspace that Wellcamp needs.

[VH-XXX]

This morning on Sunrise they showed a family member standing in front of a lot of construction equipment. It looked to be full steam ahead.

[Ultralights]

finalyl the first piece of new infrastructure the country has seen thats actually needed! :ok:

[bodybag]

Yes your right.. excellent example. They just built Brisbane airport and when they finished the project they were kicking themselves for not having thought about the wind and the weather first. They must have just completely forgotten about those things. Or maybe they were just inexperienced with airport building and no clever people (like you or Oakape) realised what they were doing until it was too late.

[Dora-9]

601:

As for Okay, the Army took over a civilian airport and moved everyone else out. Maybe they could have another move. Err, Oakey was built for the RAAF in 1943, initially as a home for 6AD.

[Jabawocky]

I dont get what the big deal is....YBOK can keep their airspace. It is only restricted by name not nature.

I fly through there quite a lot, when active and when not.

emergov......its just not an issue.

[Andy_RR]

Canberra will have its work cut out ensuring this decentralisation thing doesn't get out of hand. It's dangerous stuff, you know!

[baswell]

I fly through there quite a lot, when active and when not.
It's one thing to plan through it on an IFR plan, quite another to need clearance any time you want to do a few circuits. Plus all RA-Aus pilots are not welcome as active restricted areas are to be treated as class C...

Not knowing the location, I can't tell, but of it is at the edge and doesn't infringe IFR approach paths, then I imagine they might be open to doing the same as we have here at Gawler, I nice cut-out with enough altitude to get out VFR without clearance.

[hiwaytohell]

Bas it (threshold of Wellcamp Rwy 13) will be about 9 nm bearing 160 from Oakey, and 6 nm west of TWB!

[Grogmonster]

What about the good ole USA? Many towns / cities have numerous airports in very close poximity. What Emergov doesnt get is no one is asking Oakey to shut down and move. All it will take is some planning for turbines and jets (high altitude) to approach over rotary wing (low alt) aircraft. Chuck in weekends and public holidays and it may only be an issue for a very short time each week and when the wind is blowing the wrong way.

Groggie

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

So after the 747 load of tourists exit the terminal, where do they go? Oh that's right, they wait for the line of buses to take them on the long trip to anywhere else. Or how about the FIFO guy who has to drive to/from TWB or catch the bus before/after catching his flight. Are they hoping they'll all live in Toowoomba instead? Can't see it working. Avalon is different. It's between Geelong and Melbourne, freeway & reasonable public transport in either direction, and is effectively suburban. And still only Jetstar go there. Sure this may capture some FIFO traffic, but Toowoomba is not a realistic alternative to Brisbane. Otherwise everyone would just be using the Gold or Sunny Coast airports now.

[hiwaytohell]

I think you are missing the point Traffic

Firstly Toowoomba is a city of over 130,000 people and the second largest inland city in Australia, that has outgrown its tiny airport (which is now surrounded by houses).

A decent airport will attract increased services to Sydney and eventually elsewhere.

In the longer term, like 25+ years, which is where the Wagners are looking there is a real possibility of freighters from Asia.

The planned new airport just happens to be adjacent to the proposed Toowoomba bypass, and once it and the alternate range crossing are built Wellcamp will be closer to Brisbane's western suburbs than the Gold Coast and similar in transit times than Brisbane Airport.

Wellcamp over time could also be a viable alternate for Ipswich.

Keep in mind a lot of agricultural produce is grown (or can be grown) in the area for high value export, including quite a deal for air freight, so as Brisbane continues to grow, particularly in the western and south western areas, Wellcamp will definitely be a viable alternative, particularly if there are cost advantages for distribution and warehousing due lower costs than in Brisbane, plus the prospects for agricultural/horticultural airfreight backloads.

Likewise in the 25 year timeframe the Melbourne - Brisbane inland rail line could well be a reality. http://www.nationbuildingprogram.gov.au/publications/reports/pdf/Potential_route_for_Melbourne_Brisbane_Inland_Railway.pdf This project is far more than a pie in the sky idea. Take a look at the map in the link, it runs right past Wellcamp.

The Wagners are not looking 5 or even 10 years out. These guys are looking past their next generation. Very smart guys!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Do not knock Wagners. They are a local company with international reach. If ever Queensland is going to grow away from the SE corner then infrastructure must be built in this region. Agriculture is but one industry. If the greenies are put in check then the basic ingredient for development....abundant cheap power and water....if you build it, they will come!

[VH-XXX]

Essendon and Tullamarine are very close together and I don't recall anyone running into each other from those airports.

Lilydale and Coldstream are close together CTAFs and two aircraft once collided in circuits if I'm not mistake.

I'm sure with today's technology and thinkers they will find a method for airport harmony.

[Sunfish]

Traffic:

So after the 747 load of tourists exit the terminal, where do they go?

Stuff the tourists! Missed the point completely this is about business travellers.

An internationally connected Toowoomba means that businesses that require access to an international airport can get the hell out of Brisbane and locate to where its cheaper to operate and where their employees can get a cheaper and better lifestyle for themselves and their families.

This was the whole point of my rants when joining Pprune way back when. International connections are vital to attracting business investment - which is why the Qantas Sydeny - centric model has been a disaster for the other Australian States.

Go the Toowoomba!

[MADCHESTER CITY]

Fair play to them.

Making their City more accessible to tourists. Although, I'm sure it won't outrun Melbourne or Sydney :p

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Yeah, I can see the terminals around Australia are choked to overflowing with disappointed businessmen all clamoring for a flight to TWB.

Good luck to them. At least the couple of Dash-8's currently serving the demand will never have to worry about running out of runway.

The Wagners are not looking 5 or even 10 years out


From the article (my underlining):

The facility, with a 2.87km runway capable of taking jets up to Boeing 747s, will be in use by the second half of next year and is expected to handle 500,000 passengers a year by 2019.

"If you build it, they will come".

[500N]

Sunfish

"An internationally connected Toowoomba"

China - TWB ????

With a decent high speed road all the way to Western Brisbane,
it wouldn't be a bad option.

[BEACH KING]

A Greek proverb says:
""A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

This can be attributed to what the Wagners are doing. If blokes like them were running the country, Australia would be the greatest country on the planet!

Toowoomba is a rapidly expanding city, whose advantage is the mix of metropolitan and country lifestyle at a lower living cost. Next to Newcastle, it is the probably the second largest road transport hub in Australia. The people there are only RPT airserviced by a DH-8 to Sydney and west to Mt Isa, on a short, hump in the middle, windy, foggy, extreme weather infested airport that supplies many GA support services.

The YBOK airspace is a non-issue. It's never active! I'm pretty sure they work to the same schedule as the Oakey Shire Council;)

[Arm out the window]

Excellent proverb, Beach King.

A more appropriate one for our times could be:

"A society grows mediocre when its so-called leaders can't see past the next election."

[baswell]

A thread full of pilots talking down the first major new airport projects in how long?

Like seriously, WTF? :ugh:

There's some really rich dudes that want to spend their money on it, what the hell does it matter if any of us think it is economically feasible or ever be very popular with the traveling public?

[601]

I can remember all the negative bs from the knockers to a certain airport on a certain island just north of Mackay.

Much as I hate to say it, but Toowoomba Airport is probably past its use by date.

[Jack Ranga]

I'm not talking it down :=

[megle2]

Must be moving along towards action
All their Welcamp farm gear and houses are up for auction this Saturday

[Ejector]

Good on them, what happened to Lauguna Keys airport, anyone now?

[alphacentauri]

Ultimately they can build whatever they like, its their land. But CASA are under no obligation to register it, and defence are under no obligation to subdivide airspace to accomodate them. Shows a bit of arrogance just going forth and building the thing without getting some assurances first. Shows more arrogance assuming certain organisations will accomodate them. I wish them luck, but I believe Defence have already told them to 'bang it squarely'. I know AsA had a similar reaction.....its going to be a good one to watch.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Jack Ranga]

Was the land acquired around Badgery's Creek in the late 80's or early 90's?

How long have the proposed parallel runways been in the Melways?

Brisbane airport, enough said.

Since when is it up to service providers (ASA) to dictate to their customers where they can put an airport? Arrogance from who? Did they tell the mines in WA where they could locate airports?

If you are waiting for governments to do their job & build infrastructure, move to the US or some parts of Europe. Australia is now the highest cost place to do business in the world due red tape & regulation. More communism to come from the proletariat. Brace your yourself for that.

270 odd billion of debt & climbing from zero debt, and you are now paying 33% more for health, 20% for power. Who do reckon is payin her power bill? The same who will ensure she becomes a millionaire on retirement.

[alphacentauri]

Jack, as a service provider don't they have a responsibility to protect and maintain the level of service currently being provided? I'm talking approaches and airspace. AsA provides the approaches at YBOK and YTWB. Don't they have an obligation to those aerodromes to tell the Wellcamp mob to go somewhere else? There has been no confirmed info that YTWB is actually closing. Do we penalise YTWB or YBOK for the aerodrome? I would sugge st both locations would rather we didn't

Same goes for defence. Don't they also have an obligation to their masters to protect their airspace?

Yes AsA does have input into placing of aerodromes in the west. Previously advice has been ignored and now the predicament is 3 aerodromes all within a bees dick of one another and due confliction, approaches only available at 2 of them.

I'm all for new infrastructure, god knows we need it. But you have to be sensible about it, and too much about this development doesn't make alot of sense. The upside is at least its not taxpayer funded....yet


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[Jack Ranga]

They should probably talk to ASA, defence etc. In a perfect world it would be government doing the jobs governments do, use tax dollars to provide the infrastructure to facilitate business.

If they don't build it, they get to 'negotiate' with those who do. You watch government clamour all over this when it's a success. Protecting other aerodromes becomes a case of competition perhaps?

[Jack Ranga]

Funny thing isn't it? (Not) governments refuse to do the job then stick any obstacle they can in front of those who do. :ugh:

[emergov]

Alpha hits on a good point.

This airfield can only become viable if AsA and CASA can design airspace and approaches to make it work safely. They must consider existing airspace and all potential users. This process starts with an understanding of traffic volume and flow, and that information is currently nonexistent because there is no current requirement. If Wellcamp was planned to be an ALA in class G airspace there would be no problem; but 767s don't operate to ALAs and there is no military controlled airspace to the ground where the mines built their strips.

Despite airy posts to the contrary this airfield will have a major effect on defence flying ops based at Oakey and Amberley, and will effectively close Toowoomba. There is no GA park planned for Wellcamp.

While the PR is all about providing a community service, this project is about making money for Wagners, probably in servicing the Surat basin. I would be a lot more positive if the onus was not on us as taxpayers to make it work.

[Grogmonster]

Emergov,

You really need to do some research mate instead of writing posts on PPRUNE during your taxpayer funded working hours. Whilst Airservices is responsible for Instrument Approach design criteria they don't necessarily design and pay for all IAL procedures. I think you will find that private enterprise has to pay for the design installation and testing of some of the above. What exactly, and how much, I am not sure and will happily apologise if I am wrong.

Secondly, to your shock and horror, of course Wagner's are doing this to make money. That my friend is what private enterprise is all about and the sooner you understand that the better. Enterprise makes money, employs people, creates infrastructure which all generates more tax to Government who happily uses it for many things including your wages. And yes I am an individual who is involved in a private enterprise hence my view.

Groggy

[Jabawocky]

Actually I reckon Wagners may not be so concerned about the ROI, although if I remember Dennis he is not a careless invested.

I would not be surprised if this is them saying enough is enough. We want a decent home strip for the Falcon. So why not invest in local infrastructure that the community needs also.

[emergov]

Grog monster, my very fine friend. You are of course correct, there is nothing wrong with making money. Your other assumption is incorrect. I am on leave.

My point remains; the Wagners proposal is entirely dependent upon taking resources away from defence, and relies upon CASA to sort out the issues with the placement of the airfield.

Congratulations on being part of private enterprise, by the way. Your opinion is no more valid than mine by virtue of the fact you serve yourself, while I serve our country.

Jabawocky, you may be right. Mr Wagner is head of the local business enterprise group after all.

[Jabawocky]

And he probably is thinking of the community and its best interests too.

Not all business folk are take take take.

As for those of us in private business we don't just serve ourselves, half my week is serving many others, and a lot of us do this for nothing in return.

A slight correction based on my opinion so it may be challenged and overturned but the only people who serve the country are those in the ADF. The politicians and public servants and those who work for government enterprises and organisations work for the tax payers to serve the public in what ever area of service they provide.

Not saying you do not make an awesome contribution, heck you might fly an EMQ chopper for example. Hope that all makes sense.

[emergov]

Jabawocky,

Point taken. I'm pretty sure I serve the country.

I have no beef with private enterprise, or with anyone really. I just objected to grog's post.

[Jabawocky]

So you are from Oakey then :ok:

In which case...Thanks for your service!:ok:

[emergov]

I not posted to Oakey, but as an Aviator I have been. I have some good friends who are posted there.

I stress these are my own opinions here, not those of defence.

[Jamair]

Jabmeister - Wagners sold the Falcon 10 to some wannabe who used it to send himself broke; last time I looked it was still chained to the tarmac at CS where it will prob remain until its broken up for parts, as it has not flown since 2008 and would not be a viable proposition for rehab.

Unless Wagner has bought a new one to keep his new B350i company...:8

[Grogmonster]

Emergov,

On reflection I apologise to you for getting personal as I do get frustrated by the negativity sometimes put forward. In any event that is no excuse and you are right you are perfectly entitled to your point of view.

I do wish to point out however that when defence choose to conduct numerous instrument approaches and various training exercises at civilian airfields or when I get routed around R631 due to the Super hornets I try to accept that they too are entitled to the airspace. I don't for a moment think that they shouldn't be there. In fact I often wish I could see them at work.

Its for those reasons that I think we should all work together and I object to the idea, that because it is DOD, that we should not be allowed to enter. In fact Oakey is a very popular instrument training destination on weekends and out of hours and I still don't understand how an airport in close proximity will effect Rotary training operations.

Groggy

[emergov]

Thanks Grog, I appreciate that. I apologise if I have been antagonistic.

As I say, I'm not there, but as I understand it, the major concerns are that IFR acft inbound to Wellcamp will invoke traffic separation that will put OK circuit traffic on the ground for several minutes for each arrival, and that low level NVG training acft will be affected because at the moment NVG act must be cleared not above LSALT. They can't occupy the same airspace as inbound IFR traffic.

If this is going to work without undue disruption to helo training, the rules for traffic separation will have to be changed, or local procedure very carefully designed.

[Trojan1981]

I have just finished reading this very entertaining thread. Why do people assume that the Wagners have not already spoken to all stakeholders? Including Defence. Trust me, they have. This will happen, agree with it or not :ok:

[OverRun]

2870m runway.

That is indeed rather elegant. I have done a few of that 'length class' around the world and so have done the analyses to be able to appreciate their elegance. That is clever.

It bugg%rs most engineers though - Wagners obviously don't have one of the 'big firms' :yuk: doing their engineering. Anyone know who it is?

Thoughts:
(a) 240m RESAs absolutely needed, which are likely already provided (plus a few extra metres for the boundary road).
(b) size up the aircraft parking so that (out on the edge), you have clearance and jetblast clearance and taxiways to park off a couple of An225s for a few days. That'll take care of the longest term freight opportunities.
(c) no a/c in the terminal - that'll send you broke (well, there might be a couple of small rooms that need it).
(d) don't design for annual pax - it is busy hour that counts.
(e) get a few runway pavement designs done because you can build something quite thin initially, then overlay it as required. Spread everything out for 4F though.

Good luck.

OverRun

PS - model up the airfield occupancy well - you don't need the parallel taxiway for many years. And try some clever runway ends/turning nodes to allow a couple of aircraft there at once.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

a couple of An225s

Yeah right.

"If you build it, they will build another one and come"

[BEACH KING]

"If you build it, they will build another one and come"
I think the inventor of the vibrator said the same thing.;)

[alphacentauri]

Trojan 1981,

The stakeholders have been engaged, but have they been listened to. My understanding of the engagement with defence was more of a demand rather than a consultation.

As I said previously, pretty arrogant to assume that stakeholders will accomodate them. For anyone interested I believe there was RAPAC meeting concerning this last Tuesday. Anybody go?

I am involved in this at a medium level and my advice to all stakeholders is that this proposition will not be a win win for everybody. Where Wellcamp gets to operate, somebody is going to lose out.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Frank Arouet]

Wagner project appears to have State and Commonwealth blessings with rumors of Toowoomba being closed and redeveloped by Wagner into an industrial estate. Feds appear to have backed away from Oakey being sacrosanct. Ref Radio 2GB 1140 hrs 18/10/2013. Jones show showing outrage as is prone to.

CASA mentioned in despatches.:rolleyes:

[megle2]

Toowoomba Airport continues on as is
New airport aimed at the big guys

[BEACH KING]

Wagner project appears to have State and Commonwealth blessings with rumors of Toowoomba being closed and redeveloped by Wagner into an industrial estate. Feds appear to have backed away from Oakey being sacrosanct. Ref Radio 2GB 1140 hrs 18/10/2013. Jones show showing outrage as is prone to.

CASA mentioned in despatches.

Taking Allan Jones' word as Gospel is a trap for young players.
Megle2 is a more reliable source. Far too much local investment in the current setup at YTWB to be simply "shifted" in the short to medium term. Either way, Toowoomba is showing itself to be the leading expanding economy in Aust at present.

[TBM-Legend]

Why the whining about someone spending big on aviation infrastructure? Airfields, civil and military, co-exist all over the world as in USA, UK, France, Canada etc in close proximity without a drama. Why is the half a dozen choppers that might fly a few days a week and night at Oakey an issue?

TWB is not closing as a result of Wellcamp either. The council has made that quite clear.:D

[sunny77]

You guys make me laugh. The Pprune armchair experts at it again! Those Wagner guys are serious, and do things well. They are hard nosed businessmen with a track record to dream of. Watch this project go. They are being totally realistic and have such clear visions of the future that they need to be supported not condemned. And they have one thing in mind; they want their hometown to grow. Grow it will. That little goat track in the middle of Toowoomba can't support much. An appropriately sized airport, in a good location with a business park is genius. Even Guido Zuccoli saw the writing on the wall for Toowoomba when he built his oversized hangar 20 years ago. He is on record as saying that the current airport will go and there'll be one out around Wellcamp one day. His hangar was built to be an industrial shed when the airport turned into a business park.
You guys think John thought this up last year? No way, they've been talking about this, asking people who know and more importantly putting their money where their mouth is and buying up land in the target location. This has been on the Wagner radar for decades. This Pprune thread makes us pilots look like the naive people we are. The Wagners are business people, and pilots, that's why they are creating the future. (BTW, John held his own as a pilot of the Falcon when they had it! For a private pilot he was good, probably still is).

As for Alan Jones' comments, phht. Yawn.
As this thread shows, the old Tall Poppy Syndrome is alive and well. The facts of Wellcamp is that the airport is on their land, the runway is being built from rock from their quarry and they are funding it with their money etc etc. If it fails, it's their loss, not yours. The points regarding Oakey's airspace are invalid. There's this thing called 'negotiation' that happens that creates things like deals and agreements. Maybe you heard about it in your CRM? There are very significant hurdles in this project, but one by one they are being overcome.
All the best to them! Watch the aircraft land in about a year!

[BEACH KING]

Well said.