Virgin refuse to let Military staff travel in uniform

[crewmeal]

What a way to treat a heroine: Royal Navy girl who fought in Afghanistan told to cover up uniform on Virgin flight in case it offended other passengers | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290462/What-way-treat-heroine-Royal-Navy-girl-fought-Afghanistan-told-cover-uniform-Virgin-flight-case-offended-passengers.html)

OK not technically a military issue but if the report is true it made my blood boil when I saw something like this reported. If there was an incident with a Virgin aircraft somewhere in the world, then the military would be the first on the scene.

[diginagain]

Looks like a misunderstanding by both G4S (surprise?) and the check-in staff, as they chose to put their own interpretation on the situation. If Virgin actually has such a policy, it should be available for inspection by customers at check-in. Did anyone ask to see the directive?

The comments section seems typically frothy and uninformed. But then it's the Mail.

[Load Toad]

We've had these outrage posts '...because it might offend other people...' before and they'v been found to be B/S mostly.

So let's have the directive & an official Virgin statement before we go all Daily Mail.

[mmitch]

According to my printed copy of the DM, Virgin have stated that it is not policy to stop personnel in uniform travelling with them. G4S have denied receiving a complaint. Perhaps after the Olympics farce the sight of a military uniform sent the 'security guard' into a spin. :rolleyes:
mmitch

[BEagle]

Perhaps as a form of apology, Sir Richard Branson might provide this lady with a complimentary Upper Class flight home upon completion of her 3 month detachment? Without insisting that she wears those Viet Cong pyjamas again, of course.

[diginagain]

I'm sure Sir Richard would be more than delighted to do so, once a thorough investigation into the actual events has taken place, rather than as a reaction to a poorly-formed article in a low-grade "newspaper. A more robust response may be found elsewhere.

[Wensleydale]

While Virgin have stated that it is not their policy to ban people wearing uniform from their flights, I wonder what the Royal Navy policy of wearing "combats" to travel to the USA is? Perhaps if she had been wearing standard naval uniform rather than her combat fatigues (as reported in the DM) then the impression at the airport might have been better?

[jayteeto]

Virgin and G4S were wrong, but the last thing that I would want to wear on a transatlantic civilian flight is a uniform. I would like a drink for a start.

[Frelon]

I don't call that outfit a uniform! Sad how standards have been allowed to slip.

Probably refused because Health and Safety would not allow any person on board who could not be seen in an emergency because of the camouflage :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Jayteeto is spot on: why would anyone wish to travel in combat kit?
I detect more than a whiff of showboating here.. someone wishing to appear like a military person.

[seadrills]

Jayteeto is spot on: why would anyone wish to travel in combat kit?
I detect more than a whiff of showboating here.. someone wishing to appear like a military person.

She isn't in the RAF. The article states she is in the RN.

[NutLoose]

If she has been home on compassionate she probably did not have any other uniforms with her, bar those she was wearing. Does seem sad that she feels she needs to travel in uniform on a transatlantic, I was always glad to get out of the damn thing.

Petty Officer Howse, from Ipswich, Suffolk, said: ‘It was horrific. I was made to feel uncomfortable in my own country for wearing the uniform I wear to defend the place. It made me ashamed of my country that a British serviceman can’t travel in uniform. I was so distressed.’


Should that not read "Servicewoman" ?

[Pure Pursuit]

I completely agree that wearing uniform on a long haul is not something I would like to do however...

The idea of a security guard telling that the uniform may cause offence and that I should change does not wash, especially a G4S staff member. That company is a disgrace. The person in question should be fired for not being aware of company policy and bringing them into disrepute. :mad:

I do wonder whether or not the a/c captain was aware. I seriously doubt it.

[lj101]

A few Tornado crews have landed in the USA (trails) and been dispatched ASAP to catch their Virgin flights home ( in flying suits). They got changed when through to the departure lounge or on the flight - usually got upgraded if boarded in uniform.

Air hostess's were very friendly apparently.

[chickenlover]

I;m not at Virgin, but have plenty of friends who are. I think you will find, with the number of ex-mil pilots, crew married to serving Mil, coupled with the services Virgin provide to the Military, there is no anti- military policy or sentiment at Virgin. I suspect this was an over-zealous security guard who raised the issue without understanding what his/her own rules are ( not an infrequent issue). Once raised, I suspect the quickest way to resolve the issue was to get the lady changed into a sleep outfit, on the flight and away. Its all very well ratcheting it up the 'my boss is more omnipotent than your boss' route, but such issues take time to resolve, which may lead to the flight being delayed, cancelled or the worst outcome of all, her being offloaded.
Much as we would love to be able to over-rule G4S, we can't.
The facts of this one will be interesting.

[TheWizard]

There's two stories here. However, regardless of the why she was wearing CS95/PCS whilst on a transatlantic non ops flight, it seems nothing more than a poor judgement call by G4S (not the first time!) and local Virgin ground staff. Hardly cause for Sir Richard to go on bended knee. :hmm:

[enginesuck]

What is it with Navy lasses selling their stories to tabloids, I hope she didn't receive any payment. I still can't fathom why anyone would choose to travel from LHR to LAX in Uniform unless she was hoping for some attention and or preferential treatment. I certainly don't believe the airline is at fault here.

[orca]

It is essentially a bit of a non-story really isn't it? Navy girl wears uniform to travel, security guard gets it wrong. Ace.

My own thoughts:

1. Yes MTP is uniform. Would any naysayer care to mention what they consider a (modern, contemporary, relevant) uniform to be? She serves in the desert - not the Bravo turret of a dreadnought at Jutland.
2. Yes service personnel should feel free to wear their uniform in public. They should feel proud to serve and whilst on duty travel should feel free to display this openly.
3. Arguably service personnel should be encouraged to wear uniform in public. We generally give a good account of ourselves on and off the battle field. Generally someone representing themselves well in identifiable uniform will be good ambassadors for whomsoever they represent.
4. Members of the public and certain companies feel that they owe our service personnel a large vote of thanks. (They are quite correct). They can hardly display it openly if they have no idea who the service personnel are.

I currently live and work in the USA. On duty travel I wear MTP. It is a uniform and one that I have worn on Ops. I get occasional thanks from passers by, I have had the odd free snack on airliners and sometimes get to board the aeroplane first. I don't really see this as being a plus for me - although it is - I see it more from the point of view of people who just want to say thanks, and it's nice to hear/feel their gratitude. I live in a society that truly values their military and neither side of the equation has any bashful feelings about showing it.

MTP is comfortable and you get off the flight 'ready to fight'. Other uniforms aren't the same - I would rather wear hessian underwear than my issue blues for a long flight. I don't personally like wearing flying coveralls for anything other than when I'm actually committing the aviation....and mucking out the chickens.

[hoodie]

What is it with Navy lasses selling their stories to tabloids, I hope she didn't receive any payment.

From the original story (but I don't blame you for not clicking through. Poisonous rag):

In emails sent to a civilian friend, Petty Officer Howse, from Ipswich, Suffolk, said: ...

So it would appear that the civilian friend is the source, and PO Howse is Innocent, OK.

[muttywhitedog]

She'd been flown home at short notice to attend a funeral, and had flown home in uniform with no issues. She'd been at home for almost 2 weeks.

On the way back, there was no reason for her to fly in uniform, other than in an attempt to blag an upgrade, which is what I believe she was after.

[WhiteOvies]

My 2p from this article:

It would seem that PO Howse has had an email rant which has then been leaked to the Mail by her 'friend'.

G4S should get the kicking for this rather than Virgin, as it was on security advice that the Virgin staff acted.

You should never be made to feel embarrassed for wearing the uniform of your Country. If other people feel uncomfortable that's their problem.

Security considerations of travelling in public in uniform should be considered. Northern Ireland is still an issue, if much reduced from the 'bad old days'.

People in the UK have less respect for the military than in the US. As I currently serve in the US this is obvious every single day. In the US active duty military and their families are automatically TSA pre-approved, on duty travel or off duty, allowing a much quicker and more pleasant experience at airport security. Hence PO Howse would have had an easy time at LAX but quite different at Heathrow. Why am I not surprised?:ugh:

On duty travel I have worn uniform when flying US internally as I have gone straight from my normal work to my detached work. This has led to several interesting and friendly discussions with US forces personnel and veterans on flights, plus priority boarding with some Airlines. When travelling back to UK I normally wear civvies, on a rushed compassionate case I may not, depending on the situation. It is normal in the multiple times I have transited Dulles to see military personnel from other countries wearing uniform, Germans, Italians and an African nation being recent sightings.

I've served on 2 different Squadrons with PO Howse and she has always had a very sensible head on her shoulders and is a first rate Petty Officer. I would have been frustrated too, had I been treated the way she was treated. The UK could learn a lot from the US across a whole breadth of industries when it comes to the real meaning of 'customer service'.

[orca]

Mutty,

I am interested by your comment. What is the reason for not wearing her uniform?

[hawk-eye]

Sir Richard Branson has publicly apologized on a social media website that can't be mentioned for the mistake both for the airport security guard giving incorrect information to Virgin staff and for Virgin staff listening to it.

[high spirits]

Good on you Mr Branson, and Virgin. It's nice to see a quick reaction to quell the Daily Mail doom brigade.

[GrahamO]

why would anyone wish to travel in combat kit?

One less outfit to carry in luggage ?

FWIW, I rarely give lifts to folks when driving, but someone in uniform is the only type of person I consider opening my car door for. Something my father started me doing ....

[Agaricus bisporus]

If this story is true it is no different from someone being denied boarding because they are black.

The people involved in denying her boarding should be facing - and receiving - prison sentences for such appalling bigotry.

Name and shame. These pigs do not deserve to breathe the same air as real human beings.

[finestkind]

Load toad agree entirely

“Travel for military purposes including returning home at military expense or return to work” I don’t see a reason why you could not travel in uniform anymore than I can see a reason when ordered not to wear uniform off base due to terrorist activities years ago to do so.

I suppose you are entitled to your outdated anti-homosexual opinions Old Fella, but I fear you are in a minority in this forum, where thankfully most of us have moved on from the "poofs and queers" culture of the past.


I don’t care/mind if you are gay, bi, non-sexual, any more than I care what religious belief you are. I do care when you start pushing it in my face and when you take that as a right then I have a right to push my beliefs back in your face. It is not a culture of "poof and queers". Do I swell with pride at the sight of uniforms in a march. I should and would if the uniforms in a march were about what we do in uniform (no that's your private affair) and what we stand for as the military not as, in this case, individuals. The offence is purely bought on by the tedium of a minority ruling the majority. Why do you have to wear your work clothes in a parade? I don’t wear my batman outfit to work.:cool: It is purely “this might ruffle feathers, it is an issue because the rules states only on official purposes” (I don’t think a gay parade is an official purpose)” and therefore the rules are changed because the indigant feelings of a minority ( what is it 4% or 14% are gay in the military) gets an established rule changed for themselves. Is/was the rule unreasonable. Probably to those who think that unless they can do whatever they want than a rule is unreasonable.

AB

If this story is true

Very much the point.

Name and shame. These pigs do not deserve to breathe the same air as real human beings.

Very much not the point and the same attitude as the "poofs and queers" culture.

[Tankertrashnav]

Once a year we are treated to the spectacle of a fair number of uniformed service personnel acting as unpaid stewards at a tennis championship which appears to have no direct connection with our defence forces. This event doesn't interest me in the slightest, but if these men and women choose to give up their spare time to take part in a minor way then I have no objection to them wearing their uniforms as long as they polish their shoes and look smart.

In most of our lifetimes homosexuals were forbidden to be members of the armed forces as the fact that their practices were illegal, and thus rendered them susceptible to blackmail, made them a security risk. Now after much campaigning and no small personal sacrifice these people are now entitled to be full members of our armed forces and to risk their lives alongside their "straight" comrades in arms. If some of them wish to celebrate this fact by wearing their uniforms at a gay pride event, then good luck to them.

[muttywhitedog]

Orca, there are several reasons, many of which are listed amongst the 400+ replies to the DM thread, the 200+ comments on Arrse, e-goat etc. And she is a friend of a FB friend, and even through the medium of social media, she is yet to come up with a reason why she chose to spend the best part of 24 hours travelling in uniform when she didnt have to.

However the main one is JSP800, which details the class of travel and the mandatory rest time after a long-haul flight. I'm sure as an aviator, you would not be comfortable taking an aircraft that had been serviced by someone who had spent the last 24 hours travelling half-way across the world to be rushed to join "your fight".

I doubt "But I looked smart in my MTP sir" would wash in any subsequent BOI.

[wiggy]

You should never be made to feel embarrassed for wearing the uniform of your Country. If other people feel uncomfortable that's their problem.

:ok:

Maybe the lady didn't handle the PR particularly well but that aside and FWIW there are a (very) few G4S "operatives" who seem to have issues with airline crew travelling as passengers whilst wearing uniform - I would imagine the sight of someone wearing a "genuine" military uniform would send those individuals into complete melt down.

[TicketyBoo]

I have the greatest sympathy for this young lady. Oddly enough, I was involved a few years ago in a similar incident, in reverse. I've managed to dig out the press cutting from the time:

"Mainly Daily", 10 March 1983

Plucky Youngster in Uniform Humiliation

A local youngster has told our reporter how he was left "shocked and humiliated" when travel officials made him change from his own clothes and put on a blue uniform before beginning a sea cruise.

TicketyBoo said the problems began well before the voyage. "I'd gone to the P&O office in Liverpool to book a relaxing sea voyage, but found them closed for lunch. Luckily I spotted the office of another shipping company a few doors away, with pictures of their cruise ships in the window. I have to say the booking process was a bit chaotic. They wouldn't take a deposit, and before the cruise you had to hang around for months in a big house in Devon."

But the problems began in earnest when Mr Boo reached the advertised cruise ship. Although smartly dressed in a tweed jacket and brogue shoes, company officials insisted he wear what they called "uniform".

"It was awful" he recalled, "nothing quite fitted, there were bits of funny embroidery sewn on, and I even had to wear a hat with the company's advertising logo on."

Our reporter asked whether the problems continued when the cruise began. "To be fair" TicketyBoo replied, "once we got to sea the cruise was great fun. The Activity Co-ordinators went to a lot of trouble to make sure all the passengers felt involved." They let passengers draw lines on maps, look at numbers on twirly machines, drop things over the side and play with fireworks. Even the food was excellent. "I have a medical condition which means I can only eat warm corned beef and cold chips." said Mr Boo. "The staff went out of their way to meet my dietary requirements every day."

So would he use this company again? "To be honest," he told our reporter, " I would have to recommend to anyone else in my position that they wait for the P&O people to come back from lunch. They may be more expensive, but you can wear your own clothes."

A spokesman for the shipping company, Mr Henry Leach, apologised: "It is clear that we did not maintain our excellent standards of customer care in this case. As a goodwill gesture, we are sending the customer a rail voucher to help him get home again, but not via London."

[Off to pub - bung this in if nothing better comes in overnight. Ed]

[AR1]

Branson did indeed tweet that this was a mistake.

[airborne_artist]

TB - that is very good. I too went to a big house in South Devon :ok:

[NutLoose]

I'm sure as an aviator, you would not be comfortable taking an aircraft that had been serviced by someone who had spent the last 24 hours travelling half-way across the world to be rushed to join "your fight".

Slight drift and apologies for this.

Actually that scenario could well happen, there is no hours restriction on engineers as there is for crew.
There has been discussion of late I believe in some quarters about that needing to be addressed. See

NTSB: need to regulate maintenance duty times | AskBob.aero (http://www.askbob.aero/content/ntsb-inadequate-maintenance-probable-cause-2011-accident)

Whilst in the RAF I actually came close, I did a night shift 7.30 PM to 7.30 AM at 6.00 AM we were tasked to get an engine plus tooling ready with transport to travel to Lynham for a 10.30 AM departure to Gander for an ECU change.. 8 hours later after unloading everything it was expected by those at Gander that we would get straight on with changing it! And no we didn't.

[teeteringhead]

there is no hours restriction on engineers as there is for crew .. which reminds me of an anecdote from 1982, when our Sqn very nearly (but not quite) went south.

At an Execs, SEngO said that he would put his troops on a "war shift pattern" of 12 on 12 off; whereupon one of the flying Flt Cdrs pointed out that the aircrew were "normally" on (up to) a 14/10.

Oh how we laughed...

[Mikhail Sharpowicz]

I spoke to her about the incident, and surprisingly the Mail is close to the mark, however:

She didn't leak it to the press. Her friend in the UK gave them the story;

Having travelled from lovely Californ I A, she didn't have much warm kit with her other than good old PCS to wear in the lovely UK weather.

Branson has been pretty good about this. As soon as he heard, Branson sent her a personal e-mail etc. etc., but the Mail was already into the story.
She did take details of G4S's complaints dept before even getting near the plane and being forced to change, but has been a bit busy at work so far to send them a complaint without four letter words remaining). We look forward to their reply exonerating the 'security' guard who set this all in motion.

Some facts. Nuff said.