Selecting Bizjet Operator Criteria list

[burners on]

Hello!!

Can any body help me with an Operator selection criteria? Something like a check list or something more extensive etc. I guess the kind of thing a consulting company would use or something like that.

Thank you in advance for the help!

[CaRa]

HI Burners on. Looking for an actual operator e.g. you have an aircraft needing an operator or just general inquiry what to look for in an operator?

[733driver]

I would look for:

- pilots on full time contracts (not freelance), preferably on a roster (So that they are fully rested and fit for duty rather than always being on call and getting scrambled when a booking comes in)

- pilots who don't have to pay fr their type rating (which means they will be the best the company could find, not the ones who could afford to pay for the job)

- ideally every pilot only flies one aircraft type.

- ideally they go to the sim twice a year for training and checking

As you can see that is my list from a pilot's point of view. Knowing what I know about the industry, that's the kind of questions I would ask. Of yourse there are more. There are sme certifcations that operators can acieve that may or may not say much about their operation.

[machone]

If they say they can save you money, they lie. Safety Costs

[burners on]

Hello and thank you the replies so far.

No I dont have an aircrfat, but we have been asked to complete a tendor to short list Operators for a client. It is not something we usually do, but something we may begin rsearching into.

machone - why do you say operators cannot save an owner money? I spoke to soemone the other day who was explaining about fleet buying power and what they can achieve for fuel uplift etc. This does not affect Safety?

[chelsky]

You will not find a real “savor”. The rules are: whatever promise they do - they (operator) will reach their targets. All of them. Whatever the proposal is, the budget is always “estimated” and of course depends on “the quality of service and your personal needs as our valued customer”.
On top of promises, tinny management and operational fees you should add:
At least 500 000 euro per year of auxiliary revenue for light aircraft
At least 700 000 - 1 000 000 euro per year of auxiliary revenue for medium aircraft
At least 1 000 000 – 1 500 000 euro per year of auxiliary revenue for ultra long jet.
The do not usually touch super jets which are their mottos and flags to attract smaller ones.
Safety… well, pilot sitting in the hotel for a week and accumulating 300 hours a year is not save by all means even with simulator trainings a year and cheap fuel on board.
“Fleet buying power” …. Well, you will never see the credit notes or retrobonus agreements at the end of the calendar year… try an d ask! You will only see “your saving is …” on some bulls..t fuel invoice claiming 7 dollars per USG. But, do you know what is the real cost of fuel at that time and place?
Did you already hear from them about their “special insurance arrangements” ? If yes – did you already hear from them about crew-factor and taxes? If you did – you are doing a good research fellow.

[Trim Stab]

As 733Driver says:D

To that I would add be wary of small-fleet operators and especially any that are run by pilots with a financial stake, unless you are convinced that they have the cash-flow and capital reserves to tide them through slow periods.

[burners on]

Thank you for the comments guys, noted and appreciated!

[LGW Vulture]

Yup. Sounds like aviation. Tendering for a job the company knows little or nothing about. Good grief.:ugh:

[His dudeness]

Safety… well, pilot sitting in the hotel for a week and accumulating 300 hours a year is not save by all means even with simulator trainings a year and cheap fuel on board.

Care to explain this ?

[His dudeness]

To that I would add be wary of small-fleet operators and especially any that are run by pilots with a financial stake, unless you are convinced that they have the cash-flow and capital reserves to tide them through slow periods.

I´d say the opposite is true, I´d be wary of shiny big offices and companies that seem to be more interested in the crema on the coffee instead of running an efficient ops. (although the second half of the sentence is absolutely true) As a client, I´d rather pay for a pilots mini than for the CEOs BMW 7xx.


As you can see, its as usual: ask 5 pilots, you get 6 opinions.

If you compare management firms/operators, make sure to compare the same things.

Yes, you can save fuel with certain group buying effects, but if you use a good fuel broker you can achieve similar results at (possibly) lower expenses.
Insurance? Is the owner a big corperation (or has plenty of property/stuff) with lots of insurance contracts? THIS - a package deal - can give you way better rates than one would think... (at least thats the case for us, our insurance is cheaper than any offer we had with management companies)

[burners on]

LGW Vulture - thank you for your opinion. However, we are not in the business of taking on more than we can handle. We have gained the services of a consultant who has a number of years exeprience in dealing with such tendors, but I came here to see what else this community thought we should consider, as this is a new venture for our company in terms of services we provide.

Thank you all for the comments.

It seems that everyone has their own opinion about what to look for and which operators to stay clear of etc. Its a shame that there is such little transparency in the business models of many Operators.

[No RYR for me]

If they say they can save you money, they lie. Safety Costs

Yep. It is amazing to see the look on the face of the people who just thought that they would make money on their aircraft when you do the sums for them. This business is not for the weak hearted and it costs... The best are people who go for low or zero management fee set ups only to be screwed over big time on the (hidden) paybacks :D

But hey you get what you pay for.. or in this case: you get what you didn't know you where paying for :E

[NilDesperandum]

Take a careful look at the Operations setup. Is it the right size for the number of aircraft / level of flying that the operator is covering ? And do they have any experience in supporting the kind of flying you will be doing ?

Ops is a key function for any operator, the more organised the setup the fewer day to day problems you should hit.

[No RYR for me]

Take a careful look at the Operations setup.

Agree.

The classic: we have 24/7 Ops coverage!
Should read: we give the unemployed pilot that we use part time to update the books a company mobile for you to call 24/7 :E

I love this industry ;)

[doubleu-anker]

733 driver

Well said. Couldn't agree more! That criteria is sufficient.

Like going to the bathroom in a restaurant. If the bathroom is dirty, you know the kitchen will be dirty and you don't have to look.

Take that to the bank.

[noneya]

Ask if the company marks up a percentage on the bills or if it presented to you at face value. Any company that does not submit the ACTUAL invoice they paid, on your behalf, is not a company you want to use.

In my opinion, you want a company that only charges a monthly management fee, not one that sends you their invoice with there 5-15% markup and no backup data. With the later style management model, there is no reason for the company to negotiate the lowest rate possible on services and they are just making money at your expense!

THE ONLY ONE WHO MAKES MONEY IN CHARTER, IS THE CHARTER COMPANY! NOT THE OWNER! Anyone who tells you otherwise is either full of crap or very naive!

my to cents
J

[Trim Stab]

I´d say the opposite is true, I´d be wary of shiny big offices and companies that seem to be more interested in the crema on the coffee instead of running an efficient ops. (although the second half of the sentence is absolutely true) As a client, I´d rather pay for a pilots mini than for the CEOs BMW 7xx.


I'd accept that His Dudeness's operation is an exception to my generalisation about small fleet operators. There are indeed some operators with one or two aircraft that have built up a loyal customer base over several years and so are not running on empty cash-flow. They treat their employees correctly according to employment law, and pay for their ongoing recurrency training.

However, a lot of other small fleet operators run on empty cash-flow, expect their pilots to be on 24/7 callout and pay them cash (no employment contract). Often these outfits have Austrian AOCs!

A friend of mine has just lost his "job" with one of these companies because rather than pay for his recurrent training they preferred to recruit another pilot who has in-date qualifications. Just how low can you go? Do you really think that you are safe being flown by pilots with zero job security?

[doubleu-anker]

Happy crews are generally safer than unhappy crews. I don't want my backside strapped to an aircraft, with a pilot up front who is thinking about whether his or her pay has gone into the bank, for E.G.

Apart from the aircraft, the crews are a companies biggest asset. Not to be treated like donkeys.

It would do well for the outfits' "money men" to consider this.

[No RYR for me]

Ask if the company marks up a percentage on the bills or if it presented to you at face value. Any company that does not submit the ACTUAL invoice they paid, on your behalf, is not a company you want to use.

In my opinion, you want a company that only charges a monthly management fee, not one that sends you their invoice with there 5-15% markup and no backup data. With the later style management model, there is no reason for the company to negotiate the lowest rate possible on services and they are just making money at your expense!

THE ONLY ONE WHO MAKES MONEY IN CHARTER, IS THE CHARTER COMPANY! NOT THE OWNER! Anyone who tells you otherwise is either full of crap or very naive!

my to cents
J

How true. The best (not) offers are the ones that manage your aircraft for free (yeah right). Always love it when a person who buys a 50 million USD asset thinks he is better of by the local flying club around the corner with one clapped out citation I who will manage the aircraft for free... We always make bets on how long before either the company is bust or the owners leaves after loosing $$$$$ :D