How to re-invent the wheel.

[LexAir]

I noticed this little gem in a recent Flight International mag (22-28 Jan 2013) in an article, at page 12, by David Learmont, entitled "Future A350 pilots to 'learn by doing':

"Airbus has made a science of studying the skills needed specifically to fly the world's highly automated aircraft, and came up with more than 300 essentials, says Captain David Owens, head of flight crew training policy.
It has boiled these down to three 'golden rules': Fly, Navigate and Communicate.

Wow! I am dumbfounded at the demonstrable level of scientific expertise employed by Airbus! Surely no ordinary mortals could come up with so profound a distilation of research!

I bet they spent millions re-inventing that phrase most of us were taught from day one: "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" and to think that a student can actually "learn by doing". Double wow!!

Keep up the excellent work Airbus. The training industry values your input.

[Captain Nomad]

Learn by doing could = employ pilots who have 'done' before. Oh hang on, no it couldn't mean that word 'experience,' we don't need that anymore...

[baswell]

Wow, just wow. I am not sure if there is any way you could have taken this more out of context than you have. Congratulations, Sir!

A blog post by the same author, on the same subject, which is about modernising training to better suit highly automated airliners:

Learning to fly the A350XWB at Toulouse - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2013/01/learning-to-fly-the-a350xwb-at.html)

[LexAir]

Thanks baswell for elevating me to the status of Knight of the realm.

Sir Lexair.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Baswell from your link

1. 1. Fly, navigate and communicate (in this order and with appropriate task-sharing)

2. 2. Use the appropriate level of automation at all times

3. 3. Understand the flight mode annunciator at all times

4. 4. Take action if things do not go as expected

If you were flying a 707 you'd just have the first one. That sounds simple, but would you honestly opt to go back there?

The message is: feel at home with your aeroplane as a manual flying machine. The automation is good, so use it, but watch it, and if you don't like what you see, trip it out.

It's about time somebody not only said it, but started training people to do it.

The first to benefit will be the first A350 pilots who start training very soon. But gradually Airbus will adopt this training philosophy across all its types.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate has been drummed into pilots since they first bolted a radio into an airframe.

The above has been the mantra at Boeing for decades. To suggest, as the quotes suggest, that Airbus has made some earth shattering discovery in pilot training just proves what pilots have been saying about Airbus Industry for YEARS...they just don't get man machine interface.

Boeing interviews scores of airline pilots, from Chief Pilots down to junior FOs when they design a new cockpit. 10-15 years ago an engineer at AI was asked if they talk to pilots - the answer was an incredulous "no we don't talk to pilots".

That's why Boeings are utterly intuitive to fly from minute one and Airbus are not. One is a pilots machine and the other an engineers.

[donpizmeov]

Many hours on a bus chuck?

the Don

[baswell]

Ehrm, you really think the entire Airbus training program is just those four points?

For a company that "just don't get man machine interface", they make some aircraft with an excellent safety record and a community of pilots that loves to fly them!

Typical: take something out of context and use it to bash the brand you have some irrational aversion against, because it does things different.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Not a minute Don - but about a dozen mates who fly them and who have flown other jets before - and I take them at their word. :ok:

[donpizmeov]

I thought I smelt the bottom breath with your words, that would explain why. I have a few thousands of hours each on de Havilland, Lockheed, Boeing and Bus. They all seem to work ok.


The Don

[601]

I notice they did not discover
"WTF is it doing now?"

[ANCPER]

Don'tpissmeoff, well around 6-7000 hrs on AB (320) and around 4-5000 hrs on Boeing (733/744) and CC is right.

ECAM for starters is a PITA!

[donpizmeov]

ANCPER,
I can play that game too. But am wondering why we have to. 2500hrs 777, 8000ish 330/340, 800ish 380, 6500ish on others. They all seem to work a treat. ECAM is pretty good, and better than the 777 EICAS. Dunno how it works on the mini bus. Autopilot flying the TCAS and brake to vacate on the 380 are nice. All of them had have some great points.

Wats that saying about tradesmen and tools?

the Don.

[haughtney1]

You enjoyed Vol 3 in the 330/340 Don? all those conditional statements....:E

[donpizmeov]

You mean the things ECAM sorts out haughtney? Honestly, people with no idea talking about things they know nothing about. There are ****e things with 330/340 but that ain't one of them.

Why is it that Boeing pilots are always Airbus experts?

The Don

[haughtney1]

You mean the things ECAM sorts out haughtney? Honestly, people with no idea talking about things they know nothing about. There are ****e things with 330/340 but that ain't one of them.

Why is it that Boeing pilots are always Airbus experts?

The Don


What gave you the idea I was an expert at anything? I can barely find my butt with both my hands:ok: and this is PPrune, so I'm as qualified as the next flight sim fan.

[donpizmeov]

See Haughtney we can agree some things then :ok:. Also explains why your fingers smell funny. Too much time in the UK mate, soap will work!:E

The Don

[Chimbu chuckles]

On AF447 one pilot had his side stick ALL THE WAY AFT holding the aircraft in a stall from FL370 until impact, or at least until it was too late to avoid impact, and the other pilot not 1 meter away had no idea. Neither did the captain when he regained the flight deck until said pilot TOLD HIM and the captain realised they were stalled!

That's some pretty awesome man machine interface right there:ugh:

You have to push a button to get side stick authority...and then you can lose it again in a heart beat.

Thrust levers don't move.

I stand by my comment. It's an engineers aircraft.

The 777 is every bit as automated and fly by wire is an Airbus but it remains intuitive. Control columns move, thrust levers move. AF 447 could NEVER HAPPEN in a Boeing.

Two comments from mates who have been A320/330, A330/340 captains, respectively, for over a decade each.

1/. Airbus' de skill pilots

2/. When everything is working the 340 is fine. When things start to break I wish I was in a Boeing.

Or a highly experienced Airbus C&Ter mate of mine - fill him full of red wine and ask him what he REALLY thinks about Airbus - it's fricking hilarious:ok:

As for Airbus having some sort of (AF447 motivated I bet) come to Jesus moment about pilot skills and training?

Not before time:ugh:

[baswell]

Control columns move, thrust levers move. AF 447 could NEVER HAPPEN in a 777.
If all it takes for control columns and thrust levers to move, how come there are plenty of Boeing loss of control crashes after losing (some of the) pitot static instruments?

Maybe AF447 wouldn't have happened the way it did, but there are plenty of other niche scenarios where Airbus would fair better.

You win some, you lose some and at the end of the day, there is no statistically significant difference in accident rates.

Just because YOU are afraid of it, doesn't mean they are actually less safe...

(On the contrary, the 737-300/400 was introduced around the same time of the A320 and Boeing didn't catch up with safety record until the much more automated 738/9.)

[Wally Mk2]

It's somewhat amusing to read threads like this. It's a bit like the Ford V Holden rivalry that used to flourish at the Bathurst 500 races.

At the end of the day flying an aircraft of any denomination is just a skill, no more no less. Side stick controllers have been around well before Airbus was invented, Tiger Moth comes to kind (although not 'sidestick') but still a stick working in the same sense. I think the traditional control column stems from some original control methods that had a steering wheel attached legacy of the automobile. Both types do the task.
Mankind has tried to remove the inherent nature of man being unable to control a plane in unusual situation but in doing so has in fact made a rod for his own back in some ways.
The basics of flight has not changed since those guys stood on Kill Devil Hills all those years ago,(with a 'stick' controller I might add) what's changed has been man himself in his way of thinking that they can produce a better mouse trap, but at times not for the better it seems!:-)
Humans have been crashing planes since day one & will continue to do so, it's a fact of life no matter how many safety features are designed into a plane.

Simple answer to reduce the above, know yr machine under adverse conditions not when the suns out & it's all working swimminlgy:-)

Wmk2

[baswell]

what's changed has been man himself in his way of thinking that they can produce a better mouse trap, but at times not for the better it seems!:-)
Well, every generation of airliner has been safer than the previous. More automation means more safety.

The mouse traps keep getting better and better! :ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Plenty?

I can think of a 757 in South America but that's about it...off the top of my head.

There are less than completely competent pilots flying Boeings too - thanks to 3rd world (mostly) airline politics:sad:

Apart from F28, Bae146, Falcon, Citation, B757/767 and B777/787 my licence also has B737-300/900 on it - automation wise there isn't much difference between the 300/400 and 800ng.

There is not an aircraft built I am AFRAID of...I do have my preferences. I am sure from a pure 'poke it around the sky' point of view an airbus is as nice as most Boeings...better than some...the 767 was a real gravel truck handling wise...but for as long as a human is sitting behind the controls I think Boeing does it better than Airbus.

[baswell]

I can think of a 757 in South America but that's about it...
Northwest 6231 and Birgenair 301 also come to mind.

but for as long as a human is sitting behind the controls I think Boeing does it better than Airbus.
If it's a case of preference, that's fine, so long as you don't try to argue it's less safe because statistics will prove you wrong! ;-)

But that's no different to any technology; there are plenty of pilots who are so comfortable with the bus (after transferring to it) that they wonder why anyone would like to do it the old fashioned Boeing way.

It's like Windows vs. Mac. While I happily worked with the former for years, once I discovered the latter, I couldn't imagine going back. Others try it and hate it.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Statistics have never proven a damn thing in the real world.

Boeing = Mac

Airbus = MS

:E

[donpizmeov]

Not a bad analogy. MAC is over priced and isn't very compatible in a business environment. Those that own one waste hours of other peoples lives talking about how great they are.

Shame you have to load windows on it to make it useful. :E

The Don

[Centaurus]

The same subject of Airbus now going to teach pilots how to manually fly during type rating and recurrent training, was covered at length in Pprune Rumors and News.

Here is the link:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/508592-flight-international-future-a350-pilots-learn-doing.html

[donpizmeov]

The eight golden rules rules by Airbus have been around for a very long time (don't believe me? then Google it.). I believe they predate the 320. These are the things that are being rehashed by Airbus and where they think training needs to be focused now and in the future.

1-The aircraft can be flown like any other aircraft.
2-Fly,navigate,communicate in that order.
3-One head up at all times.
4-Cross check the accuracy of the FMS.
5-Know your FMA at all times.
6-When things don't go as expected-TAKE OVER.
7-Use the proper level of automation for the task.
8-Practice task sharing and back up each other.


These are not new. To some they seem like common sense, or what in the good old days was called Airmanship. But it would seem that Airbus saw back then you can not count on those things anymore. Any change to train pilots to be pilots, and not focus on Minimum cost, Minimum requirement training would seem like a good idea to me.

The Don

[haughtney1]

6-When things don't go as expected-TAKE OVER.
7-Use the proper level of automation for the task.

From a non expert point of view :E, I can state that those concepts and opinions have " allegedly" only very recently been embraced in the lofty reaches of the flight technical departments in TLS.
Don't believe me? send me a PM and I'll explain all, a legacy of too much time in the UK.
I should add that "the proper level of automation" means very different things to different mindsets, which should give you a starter to why based on my non expertness you are welcome to Le Boos :E

The concepts you describe are a result, rather than an ethos.

[doubleu-anker]

When you have a statement that originates from airbus to the tune, ".... the a/c is uncrashable...." Nothing, repeat nothing, surprises me what comes out of AB.

[haughtney1]

To be fair Double, I bet Boeing told their customers the batteries were pretty robust...:E

[doubleu-anker]

Point taken

Anyone who straps their backside to a B787 is part of the test flight program, whether they know it or not.

Like any new a/c these days.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well yes - a year or so back I saw a CNN video about the 787 where Boeing gave him a ball peen hammer and a piece of carbon fibre fuselage and said "have at it".

In hindsight they'd have been better served giving him a battery and ball peen hammer :hmm:

During my 777 type rating course in Gatwick several years ago a group of Boeing pilots were finishing up the fidelity checks on the 787 sim. They told me there were some serious issues with the 787 but when they were resolved the aircraft would be awesome. No idea whether they meant the batteries - probably not. A few days later I flew the 787 sim and, battery issues aside, it's a VERY impressive aircraft. Assuming you've flown another wide body Boeing first it will be the easiest type conversion of your career. Like all Boeings everything just seems right...intuitive...you don't sit there thinking 'WTF did they do THAT?!'

Well at least until you get to the electrical system:eek:

[baswell]

Chimbu- Turkish crashed a 737 at amsterdam when those great moving thrust levers didn't do their moving.
Oh, they moved alright. Backwards when they shouldn't have. And the pilots didn't notice. :ugh:

[baswell]

MAC is over priced and isn't very compatible in a business environment.
I wouldn't have my business if I hadn't switched to Mac years ago; that, and the even more expensive learning to fly are best investments I ever made! :ok:

[donpizmeov]

Good on you Bas.Glad it worked for someone.

[haughtney1]

Wash thee mouth out Don, oh ye of non Mac believer faith.....or I shall be forced to interrupt my pint of IPA here in the delightful but wet Cheshire countryside...

EX 380...I've got a really good email from a couple of mates on the 330 at CX that explains vol 3 nicely, P.O.S sums up the roller powered -300 variant :E but as I'm no expert I can't really do anything but agree with them entirely.
I should also add, my back hurts thanks to a firm 380 arrival yesterday, my daughter piped up "don't worry daddy...Boeings never do that" even 5 year olds get it:}

[baswell]

my daughter piped up "don't worry daddy...Boeings never do that" even 5 year olds get it
Should have been on the SQ 777 I was on to Amsterdam last year.

Low power (flight idle?) from 10,000 or so. Beautiful approach, never touched the throttles. This was going to be a good one. Wind calm, into the flare. BANG! :D

Like, WTF, how could you screw that up? :ugh:

[doubleu-anker]

Appoligise for the threat highjack, however I couldn't resist this one.

Another re invent, if ever there was one.

BBC News - Processed meat 'early death' link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21682779)

I think we all knew this. Well we have to die of something.

Any more sausages??