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N747EX
22nd Feb 2013, 11:24
Good afternoon Pprune,

We see a lot of people posting in this section about changing career to be a pilot. Recently myself and a number of fellow pilots have been thinking the other way due to unstable rosters, job instability etc to change career from being a pilot.

So those of you who have or know people who have left aviation what kind of careers did you/they go for? Is there any particular careers that suit pilots better than others?

P.S. Hope this is the right section and I don't mean to annoy or dishearten newbies but this is the reality of being a modern day airline pilot.

pakythepilot
22nd Feb 2013, 12:10
The situation is not good even in other fields, if you move outside the aviation I don't think so you could improve your quality life, unless you want to be a dentist or optician. But from what I think you are not. Doctors, engineers, all of kind of jobs which in theory are used to have a good payscale and quality life, they are experiencing the worst work conditions than ever. The problem is not just aviation related but worldwide related. I'll give you an example. My cousine is a surgery doctor with 20 years of experience in the sector. He has recently receive a pay cut of 1500 Euro and in the last period he was forced to do a shifts of almost 18 hours due to personal cut in the hospital, and therefore not enough personal to cover them. At the end, after he has been accepting all this exhaustive conditions to keep his job, yesterday his boss gave a fire notice and he will be jobless in 15 days. Do you think that just moving out aviation it would improve your life?:ok:

waxo
22nd Feb 2013, 12:16
Not sure how old you are but ATC not a bad option this side of the world. That been said I must admit that it's tough times in all professional sectors. Maybe artisan is the way to go....

onebyone
22nd Feb 2013, 14:03
I've only been employed for about a year, but i've already started making alternative plans for the future. In fact, the airline i work for has had to restrict the number of people permitted to work part-time since so many have started taking classes on the side.

There are two possibilities i'm pursuing atm. I'm fortunate enough to have a bachelor degree, and my plan is to take classes to get an MBA. Being a pilot is a very specialized skill, and a very tough one to transfer to a different industry. ATC has been mentioned, which would seem like an easy transition when considering which skills you possess. We're also trained to be very safety-minded people, in quite a different way than "normal" people, and i believe this is a skill that would be quite valuable in other high-risk industries. The oil industry comes to mind, and with a degree in HR you'd probably fit in quite well. I even heard of one retired pilot who got a job at an oil company traveling around the world and checking out the various airlines that the company used to transport its employees.

My other option is to get an MBA and apply for a nice desk job, working weekdays and enjoying weekends and holidays with friends and family. I'm thinking that if i can't fly anymore (due to the never-ending downwards spiral of our industry), i don't want to have anything to do with the aviation industry. There are plenty of decent jobs out there which allows you to have a normal life, a normal sleeping pattern, and even summer holidays!

Good luck to you. :)

Sporky
22nd Feb 2013, 16:17
I was not quite in the same position to yourself N747EX, I have a frozen ATPL - low hours finished about 2 years ago. I had one interview and passed for regional carrier but job never materialised unfortunately. Did not agree morally with P2F and not willing to put myself in more debt therefore slowly but surely followed my head and not my heart and applied for non flying jobs. I now work in finance in London. I have an economics degree so was lucky in that case, but hardest aspect of getting a non flying job was catering my CV so that it was not flight orientated but relevant to what I was applying for (as all my history was pretty much flying). Also getting round the question, ‘would you go back to being a pilot if offered a job tomorrow.’ Pilots generally have stable personalities and good with numbers, high attention to detail these are excellent points when applying.
Having pilot history or training on your CV is a good ice breaker to get seen through the myriad of applications for non flying jobs but basically it all comes down to experience. A degree is helpful especially considering current employment opportunities across EU.

In retrospect I am happy with my decision to look at other jobs that were not aviation jobs due to stability, personal life, money and the good hours! However, I never lose the ability to look up in the sky and see someone fly by and think that could have been me. To answer your question directly you can change industry but it all depends on circumstances – age, experience, type of industry wanting to go into, qualifications needed, wages decrease until established.

Good luck all the best. :ok:

Stocious
22nd Feb 2013, 23:39
The grass is always greener it seems.

It may be telling that the airlines is one of the careers that, once established you don't see too many people leaving, whereas you do see quite a few changing from others to becoming a pilot.

Make of that what you will.

Buggington
23rd Feb 2013, 10:25
Clunk: As you should see from my latest reply to that thread, my theory was that as you had enough hours it became possible to leave Easy or similar, I could move and have better T's & C's and money.

Or am I delusional?

Anyway, thank you for the "You come across as an intelligent and articulate 17 year old" - that brightened my day :)

Stocious
23rd Feb 2013, 11:23
Definitely not true. Quality of life is the reason not to be in aviation right now. I know many people earning well into 6 figures, running their own businesses - working from home, working when they want, flying when they want, home every night, home for every birthday, home for every Christmas, etc etc. They do their own thing - and "doing your own thing" is actually what pilots are pretty good at.

So when it comes to 'quality of life' there's no doubt the grass IS greener outside of aviation - it's just that you don't fly planes as much.


As I've said, the grass is always greener. Never mind the fact that to strike it rich in business you have to be very savvy/lucky/put in a lot of hard work. I dare say in the early years of your 'many peoples' businesses, their quality of life wasn't so great with little holidays, long days and lots of stress to think about.

You omit to say what these businesses are, or indeed how they come into it, but it's telling that the three links you post are all described as 'retired'. If I had just retired with a big pot of money I'd perhaps look at doing something interesting with it myself, never mind the fact that I haven't had a vinyard in the family for the last 20 years :rolleyes:

N747EX
24th Feb 2013, 09:47
Interesting responses thanks. Not saying I will definitely leave aviation but it's a discussion that has to be had as it's a discussion that happens in the flight deck all too often these days.

I think the main problem people have who want to leave is the money and I think a bit of a fear of the unknown. Money wise although pilot pay is being cut if you don't have a degree it is certainly more than entry level pay at most jobs. Also I think a lot of people are afraid of entering a new profession at the bottom of the ladder e.g. Captain of the ship down to new guy in the office.

Buggington, don't want to dampen your spirits but the pilot profession like a lot of them these days is experiencing big changes. Ever decreasing pay, less and less suitable job opportunities, commuting, away from family and friends, no job security and the cabin crew seem to be getting more and more ugly (ok last one was a joke)

clunk1001
24th Feb 2013, 09:57
The links were really just to demonstrate you can do pretty much anything, and that pilots are quite good at doing their own thing (focussed, motivated, goal oriented etc). Which is kind of what the OP was asking - is the Pilot skillset you have usefull elsewhere? Not really. Is the Pilot mentality/personality usefull elsewhere? Absolutely. I really wasn't suggesting that you immediately start a pig farm Stocious :). Unless you want to - in which case my point is you CAN if you really wanted to make it work.

And no, you don't need a pot of Money to make it happen - I didn't. But you have to be passionate about what you do to be really effective at it - and that's the most important point.

And yes, owning a business can be hard in the first few years. it's not without it's challenges - but it's nice to have a challenge where it's entirely up to you to make a difference. Unlike continually battling management and deplorable (I like that word now) Ts&Cs, bad rosters etc.

My advice isnt necessarily to go a start a business by the way. My advice is to look at what you enjoy, or think you might enjoy and go from there.

TizerTheAppetizer
24th Feb 2013, 11:06
Oh dear, these posts don't make pleasant reading for someone planning to leave a career and become an airline pilot (because my Class 1 has been denied but surgery will soon make it possible, hopefully).

To those who have dreams of flying as an airline pilot, I would say go for it, you only live once and if you don't go for it you'll regret it for the rest of your life. People who have been working in an industry for some time get jaded and sometimes loose their perspective.

As for wanting to leave aviation and try something else, how about journalism? If you have a good nose for stories and can write in plain English, you could use you flying and aviation expertise to build contacts and write the odd article or sell the odd story idea. Journalism is much tougher to break into than aviation, but if you're good, then who knows, someone might offer you a job as a reporter or feature writer once you've done a certain amount of freelance work for them. I'm thinking of the specialist press to begin with but it could lead to the mainstream press/tv if you're particularly good. It's something you could do in tandem, so you don't leave one career before establishing yourself in another.

clunk1001
24th Feb 2013, 14:55
People who have been working in an industry for some time get jaded and sometimes loose their perspective.

Tizer. For many in the current climate it's less about losing perspective, and more about losing their jobs. Are you seriously saying that the scores of pilots facing redundancy right now have simply lost perspective? Perhaps if you put down those glossy CTC brochures which you're struggling to read and looked at what's actually going on you'd appreciate that a little more.

magicmick
26th Feb 2013, 08:48
To those experienced pilots that are looking to leave the flightdeck or perhaps have lost their job or medical, the AAIB at Farnborough are recruiting Air Accident Investigators (Operations) which require ATPL and command experience. Seems reasonably paid (probably doesn’t compare to a skippers salary) and I guess that the work would be pretty varied and interesting. The advert is on their website and will appear in Flight Magazine, if not today then pretty soon.

JB007
27th Feb 2013, 01:03
Interesting thread! A considerable amount of this generation of pilots are thinking like N747EX. And that includes myself...

I was made redundant in 2010 from a good UK career airline, I was lucky enough to have never been out of work but generally had a miserable time of it becoming ever disillusioned with the industry as a whole! Poor managers, poor rosters and the ever expanding attitude of "pilot bashing"!

I can totally relate to Clunk 1001 post #10, spot on!

Rather than quit, I decided to do the "Gap-Year" that I never had! I'm flying a 767 to places in the Far East based in The Maldives! I'm learning and seeing new things and loving the change and adventure of it all! Money is good and I'm enjoying myself again...

Just food for thought, its another angle on getting your passion for it all back, grabbing what this job and industry has to offer and it's stories to tell come retirement!

mutt
27th Feb 2013, 04:25
I just bought a bar on a tropical island, so when all the fun of flying is over, I will just go surfing on the beach and live off the income of the bar :)

bagurxvi
5th Mar 2013, 14:09
I remember a person who did the flight school with me, he paid the T/R on the 737 and hours then he got a job in Holland for a company with the 737 after 2 or 3 years he was fed-up and he stopped to be a pilot.

He went back to university, graduated in economy and now he is working in Amsterdam for an american corporation.

Money has never been an issue in his family! :sad:

bluecode
5th Mar 2013, 15:42
Might I suggest something in aircraft leasing? Or engine leasing. Can be extremely lucrative and the experience of being a pilot is an obvious advantage.

Another suggestion is teaching aviation English to non native speakers. Can involve travel but there are places where the students go to the college. Not sure if it's that lucrative.

I am always banging on to young potential pilots that they should go to college first. This is an example of why it's a good idea. Even if you succeed in getting the job there may come a time when it loses it's appeal. If you have an MBA or something similar combined with your pilot experience you can often be appealing to a wider cross range of businesses.

The reason I emphasise that is because my main experience is as a pilot, unless you count factory work and an obsolete job I had when I was working my way up. I couldn't even get a barman job now.

tailstrike1
6th Mar 2013, 17:29
Dear all,

I've changed changed career several times in my life .
Starting work as a cabinet maker at the age of 20 - after mil svc ( no UCLA studies in architecture as planned due to family reasons), studied economics in the evenings after work, finished with a degree, cnld cabinet work and started flying, finished wih an ATPL, worked as an underpaid FO- sacked - joined the dole- worked as a flt dispatcher, rsgd - worked as a flt ops mngr- rsgd -currently working in another biz (9-5 office job) and hoping that one day in the near future - I'll be able decide personally -if - and - when - or- for whom -I work (spend the precious lifetime) -again in another biz


all the best

Stuck_in_an_ATR
6th Mar 2013, 18:14
Not going anywhere now (happy as ever with airline flying), but if, hypothetically, I had to...

Recently I started toying with an idea of a career at sea (I'm a vagabond by nature. any 9-5 job would kill me quickly and idea of coming back home everyday for the rest of my life fills me with dread:{).

Anyone can tell me the state of shipping industry nowadays? How long would it take for an airline captain to convert into a ship captain? (or an officer?) :} Hope at least some of the skills would be transferable?

Cheers!

banjodrone
11th Mar 2013, 17:34
Stuck_in_an_ATR,

I had a merchant navy career in the past, it was more on the technical than operational side but I saw a lot of what went on in all departments. First of all a Career at sea in either the engineering or deck/navigational side of things has a completely different progression path from aviation. Starting from scratch you could expect 15 years at the very least to become a captain but that would depend to some degree on the type of vessels you worked on, but even that is quite an optimistic timeline.

The thinking in the maritime industry is that experience is still the overwhelmingly most important factor in what turns out a great seafarer, while aviation has moved more towards aptitude and targeted training in recent times.

That having been said it can be a very rewarding career if you stick it out.

To train as a deck officer, you first of all have to find a company willing to sponsor your training, as there is a requirement to log a certain amount of sea time during your progression. Your first step would be Navigational Officer of the watch (OOW). AFAIK there is a requirement for a certain amount of sea time on deck/bridge before you start the college phase.

You would then work your way up through 3rd Mate, 2nd Mate, Chief and finally Captain. Bear in mind that I'm referring only to passing exams and orals.

Some of the skills and knowledge would be quite transferrable, particularly weather and cartography.

There are jobs in the maritime sector out there. I'm currently trying to get back into it but they often require specific skills and experience on the technical side that I don't have. Good deck and engineering officers are always in demand.

This is the website you need to check out

Careers At Sea - Merchant Navy Career Opportunities - www.careersatsea.org (http://www.careersatsea.org/)

Good Luck :)

Fuel Crossfeed
11th Mar 2013, 19:59
Does anybody know what the equivalent qualifications an ATPL would equate too ie: A levels, Degree, BTEC higher Diploma??
Surely education authorities and multi national companies must give some credit to the amount of studying undertaken to gain and hold an ATPL.

Superpilot
12th Mar 2013, 03:43
Some time ago, I read some where that an ATPL Theory course was considered to be equivalent to a 2 year degree course. However, I can no longer find the source of the quote.

mad_jock
12th Mar 2013, 09:21
I can no longer find the source of the quote

Thats not suprising as its complete and utter rubbish.

The ATPL theory is 15/16 year old school exam level.

The vocational side of things mean that under national credits a CPL is equivelent to an HNC and ATPL equiv to a HND. Some courses will give you a thing called a foundation degree which you can also gain from doing the Management course working for MAcDonalds.

If you get up to TRI/TRE level I believe it equiv to an ordinary degree. There is a load of stuff on the open university web site some where on all the vocational crossover credits.

But thats all down the vocational line of qualifications and is only of use if your looking to gain credits to allow you to go in say at second year level on an academic degree.

There are loads and loads of pilots out there with tertiary education even ones that can't spell :p and to compare ATPL to a proper degree would be insulting what we had achieved if it wasn't so funny.

mutt
12th Mar 2013, 10:36
Bravo Delta....... if you want to work for local rates :):):)

Superpilot
12th Mar 2013, 10:39
mad jock, in an attempt to find the quote via Google, it appears that this is one subject that always gets your goat! :ok:

I agree with you but was simply stating what I thought I had seen written. Anyway, the one liner does exist and goes back several years but it was on the subject of the South African ATP.

mad_jock
12th Mar 2013, 10:48
It does get my goat.

And the one liner is more than likely coming from a pilot thats not particularly bright but has a huge ego about being a pilot.

magicmick
12th Mar 2013, 11:56
Don’t know what degree MJ studied but 6 months full time in a flying school classroom can never equate to 3 years or more full time in a university lecture hall. Perhaps an ATPL is harder than some degrees (anyone for surf studies or theology) however anyone that has experienced Engineering Maths Level 3 will give a pretty vigorous argument that their course is harder and that the ATPL theory doesn’t come close.

mad_jock
12th Mar 2013, 12:03
Funny you should say that

BEng (Hons) Mechnical Engineering.

And Theology, well the course that The Church of Scotland Ministers have to take isn't for the faint hearted.

I used to help a couple of them out with thier structures which they did a bit of so they could understand how the church roof stay up or more to the point how to spot when it was about to come down.

But you also have to add in the practical side of things and experence which leads to holding an ATPL which is why its given more credit than a CPL.
TRI/TRE will have undergone core courses and other addtional teaching and assement courses. And the foundation degree dosn't require any orginal research.

Nearly There
12th Mar 2013, 12:04
Another here who's walked away from aviation, as much as I love the industry I hate it equally and it was a tough descision to turn my back on it after nearly 20 years involved inc RAF and various civi ground roles..

My business partner is also a ex RN fast jet jockey and was close to spunking his savings converting to a civi licence, but didnt and we now have a field based activity centre with off road driving, hovercraft driving and time trials and links with similar local companies to able to offer a whole array of fun stuff to do!

Il still keep what I've got current but just fly privatly when I want, running your own business is hard work but enjoyable and I doubt I could go and work for someone else again.

magicmick
12th Mar 2013, 13:35
Obviously someone who understands the pain of engineering maths, mine was an electronics BEng but the maths are equally hard and the least said about Scottish ministers (at least the catholic ones) the better at the moment!!!!!!!!!

CharlieTangoZulu
12th Mar 2013, 15:27
IMO the level of math you study for that ATPL is NOTHING compared to the one in any engineering course!
mechanical engineering student

mad_jock
13th Mar 2013, 09:44
No part of the ATPL's is equivelent to any part of a degree.

Yes there is a largish volume of content. But the actual level of it is suited to 14-15 year olds how ever much they want to tart it up.

If they started requiring you to understand the principles behind the concepts in the ATPL subjects it might be a different story. But to be honest there is no requirment for that level to work as a pilot or even for that matter an engineer that fixes aircraft. I would hope that the ones that design the aircraft would know though.

Luke SkyToddler
13th Mar 2013, 10:49
FYI Jock, in a lot of countries who use points based immigration schemes such as Australia / New Zealand, an ATPL licence is given the same number of points as a Master's degree.

Yes you might argue that it's physics at the 15 - 16 year old level, but you know what, these days you can go to a "community college" and smoke pot for 3 years while you study underwater basket weaving or organic kaftan designing and end up with a "degree", so I'd argue the ATPL is just as valid if not more so. I know I put a damn sight more work into my ATPL than I did into my B.A. ( philosophy major :eek: ) so it seems only fair :rolleyes:

mad_jock
13th Mar 2013, 11:12
Some of are gifted with the ablity to think in certain ways. For those that are technically minded the ATPL's aren't very hard. Those that have a more philisophy way of thinking it will be harder.

That being said I suspect I would fail the aged 16 philosphy exam so it doesn't change the level which it is at.

A degree is a qualification in organised thinking. It should require original thought, processing and documenting.

The hammering a question bank followed by fannying around a procedure with only one donk working doesn't really meet the bill.

I can understand the points scheme because they are looking to not let in people likely to require resources from the social system. And ATPL is up there with a masters if you wanting to come into the country and have a job already. I presume a Masters cert for supertankers is in the same level. But you won't hear of them claiming they are degree qualified. They are proud at the fact they are a master of a huge ship.

And way the immigration thing is more a sliding shopping list for talent if you want a certain range of skills you make it easier to get in. Things change and an ATPL will have the same level as a sheep shearer.

fade to grey
16th Mar 2013, 21:55
Are you a commercial pilot , Mad Jock ? If so you don't sound very impressed with your achievements.
I've known lots of ex school friends who have done degrees ( they never ) used and half of those were thick as ....

I don't claim the ATPLs put me up there with Hawking, but to the average layman in the street they are like an academic mountain.

truckflyer
17th Mar 2013, 01:15
ATPL's "are like an academic mountain"!

I do not think that is the intention by MJ, just stating the obvious facts, it's not a very difficult level of maths or engineering required to achieve your ATPL's!

I think one of the reasons that we do have to many "wannabes", is the dumbing down of the ATPL's subjects, I mean even idiots can get trough it now, within the number of allowed attempts they have!

I blame QB's and multiple choice questions for this, not sure how it was in the UK in the old days, but if it had been ordinary written answers instead of multiple choice, you would have been able to get away far many of the thick ones, but of course it would have mean less students being attracted to go trough the training, and less money for the FTO's!

I believe the ATPL's in today's format is a joke, and are far to easy! Than I guess, this is what the bean counters want! Lot's of pilots believing they can become pilots!

JB007
17th Mar 2013, 04:45
Agree with you truck!

I know of someone who threw enough money at it and eventually got through, despite clearly not having the aptitude as proved by the number of exams attempts and years it took to pass the exams! And this isn't far off what this generation of the "Wannabe Zombie Army" are doing... I sincerely hope I'm out of it by the time this generation of numptys are LHS/Trainers/Management...

Right, back to trying to find the Grand Prix on Chinese TV...!!!!!

mad_jock
17th Mar 2013, 06:56
Yes commercial and ATPL and LTC.

More than happy being proud of being a pilot. I just know that its a skill set which is seperate to the degree job I used to do.

There is a marked difference in how the degree qualified pilots tackle problems both in the air and dealing with documentaion on the ground.

The degree pilots follow the format, problem definition, research, develope a solution then document. Which is what your taught with a degree.

The none degree educated tend to pinpoint solutions from previous experence which works sometimes and gets more successful with high levels of experence. But if the problem is a new problem this is extremely wastful of time and generally the solution isn't particularly effective or works for other reasons than the ones presumed which can then lead it to fall over if the situation changes.

I am also aware that there is an old school and a new school grouping of pilots. The pilots from the years of morse and the different performance exams and multiple plots in general NAV had a completely different foundation in the ATPL subjects. But even they didn't have the training in logical problem definition and solution.

n.dave
17th Mar 2013, 06:56
ha...even easier with an online banking system, the key word is 'Bristol'. Some people without studying their ground atpls can acheive pass marks just by remembering the answers. ( all Word by word).

Superpilot
17th Mar 2013, 08:09
The vast majority of professional (and school/college) exams these days are multiple choice and the ATPL exams aren't the only ones for which you can find question banks. I worked in an industry where you are better of studying the subject altogether through question banks, rather than reading the out of date waffle offered inside text books (sounds familiar? ;))

Multiple choice is the way of the world now and provides us all with safe guards and common standards, in my opinion a much fairer way of examination marking. From an examiner's point of view, can you imagine sitting down and reading/marking answers hand written by people who speak English only as a second language?

truckflyer
17th Mar 2013, 10:36
In my opinion if the exams was not multiple choice, you would have a high standard of candidates, that probably would have a better foundation / understanding in the subjects.
But for me equally as important, there would be far less spending absurd amounts of money on training that will in the end give them no job!

The FTO's are very happy to have a high pass rate of students, both scores and number of students getting trough their training.
I have seen people hardly ever open their ATPL books, go straight on the QB, and lets be honest banging trough that a few times, will give you most the answers! Go trough the QB 3 - 6 times, and you will know more or less all, I have seen it happen few times with few people I know!

And seriously, if I ever see these people flying a commercial aircraft in the future, I will get of and rather take a train!

Regarding level of English etc., I am not sure why this should be a major issue, of course to enter you would need a certain level of written English anyway, and it would be technical subjects.
When ever in any walk of life I see exams with multiple choice, I get amused, as you have 25% or 33% chance if 4 or 3 questions to get it right, without having a clue about the subject, how can that reflect the true knowledge of the students!

With multiple choice the pass level should maybe be increased to a higher level, I still think essay style would have avoided this boom in pilots without hope!

Stocious
17th Mar 2013, 11:56
There is a marked difference in how the degree qualified pilots tackle problems both in the air and dealing with documentaion on the ground.

The degree pilots follow the format, problem definition, research, develope a solution then document. Which is what your taught with a degree.

The none degree educated tend to pinpoint solutions from previous experence which works sometimes and gets more successful with high levels of experence. But if the problem is a new problem this is extremely wastful of time and generally the solution isn't particularly effective or works for other reasons than the ones presumed which can then lead it to fall over if the situation changes.


Really? That's a massive generalisation and probably an unfair one. I doubt that spending 3 years or longer at uni (well, discounting the ludicrous holidays) teaches you skills that spending 3 years in another career or doing something else couldn't do when it comes to solving mid air problems, or even when it comes to filling out documentation. It doesn't make a blind bit of difference really as it all comes down to the aptitude of the person in question.

mad_jock
17th Mar 2013, 19:48
Not really its pretty obvious when you look in and see which way the trouble shooting develops to issues.

The whole point of SOP's and QRH's and the like is so the crew doesn't have to think. They are led through the trouble shooting procedure to the result by following a checklist which has been written by panel of experts who more than likely have degrees.

Go to Uni and find out or do a couple of OU courses and see how the courses start pushing your mind into thinking in a certain way depending on the course.

There are folk out there that are just naturals but they are few and not very common.

BTW you do get academics who should never be let loose with a screwdriver. And are suspect driving a car. So be proud of the skill you have. It ain't a degree its being an aviator with a broad skill set encompassing handling, managment, law, systems, teaching etc etc.

I can't actually understand why a pilot would want to lump themselves in with a load of graduates. Especially the ones from the breeze block polys that have been pumping them out over the last 6-8 years. Its a different skill set.

Higher for hire
18th Mar 2013, 20:44
When ever in any walk of life I see exams with multiple choice, I get amused, as you have 25% or 33% chance if 4 or 3 questions to get it right, without having a clue about the subject, how can that reflect the true knowledge of the students! With multiple choice the pass level should maybe be increased to a higher level...truckflyer,

your amusement is clearly unjustified as a little piece of probability calculation quickly reveals:

The chance of a candidate who is merely guessing is following a binomial distribution:

http://www.algebra.com/cgi-bin/rendertex.cgi?%5CLARGE%20%5C%20%5C%20%5C%20%5C%20%5C%20%5C%2 0%5C%20%5C%20%5C%20%5C%20P_n%28k,p%29%5C%20=%5C%20%5Cleft%28 n%5Ccr%20k%5Cright%5C%29p%5Ek%5Cleft%281%5C,-%5C,p%5Cright%29%5E%7Bn%5C,-%5C,k%7D

Pn is the probability of k successes in n trials, p is the chance of success for each single trial, in our case 25%. Out of pure curiosity I calculated a few examples:

If there was only 1 question to answer, the chance of success is clearly 1:4 as you stated correctly. But don't get deceived by this apparently easy prey. If there were 9 out of 12 questions to be answered the chance decreases quickly to less than 1 : 2500. The shortest JAR-FCL exam subject (mass&balance) has 22 questions out of which 17 must be answered correctly to pass. Your chances of passing even this short test by pure luck are less than 1 : 2.5 million. A 40-question-test would give you a 1 : 21 billion probability, the longer exams are virtually impossible to "crack". It's just like playing roulette: to hit black or red once is easy. But to hit black 30 times in a row is almost impossible.

To sum this up: a pass level of 75% is more than enough to sort out the clueless. And if someone managed to pass all 14 subjects this reflects at least a profound knowledge of the question bank...:ok:

truckflyer
18th Mar 2013, 23:02
Higher for hire;

Sorry your equation might be wrong, however it still leaves a 25% on each question to get it right by guessing.
Second, after going over the QB more than 2 times, the guessing odds will have strongly reduced, probably to 25% chance of guessing wrong!

Obviously you have not seen what I have seen!

I have seen candidates, plural, never open their books, but still pass their exams alone on using the QB's!

I did not say they would pass the whole exam by luck, but with QB and a bit of luck, not really that complicated!
Also a multiple choice test, can give you the answer, to help you recall some of what you have read/studied, but might not have remembered, unless you saw it written in front of you!

But don't worry, when you go for CPT upgrade, there is no longer multiple choice exams to worry about! Still I have to say, from what I have seen, it does not give enough to give me comfort in that the student really has understood the topic, it is to easy, simple as that!

mad_jock
19th Mar 2013, 06:56
truck I learnt very early on that probability maths is best left to those that understand it. And I am 100% certain that I don't and its not obvious to me anyway some of the solutions. BUt I did learn that they are right.

That equation does look familiar. But thats from over 20 years ago now 1st year Eng maths.


The 25% guess factor on a question is correct but the combinations of probabilitys gets a bit confusing (to me anyway) when looking at the final proberbility.

The way the Question banks have been designed with 2 stupid answers and 2 similar but one slightly wrong. Sometimes all of them wrong but you have to choose the most correct. Means that you cant really apply the "standard" maths to it all. Most questions are a 50/50 choice with two discarded as stupid.

If anyone with even the sightest bit of proffessional examination setting got there hands on the questions I am pretty sure that the whole set of exams would be deemed flawed.

Unfortaunately now it is possible to hammer the QB's and get through with very little conceptual understanding of the subject matter and even get on paper very good results.

Its certainly not uncommon on the line to use terms like dirty side of the drag curve and "once you have trimmed for the speed" to be met with complete confusion from the pilot. Who had passed there ATPL theory under 12 months previously with a 98% average.

Luke SkyToddler
19th Mar 2013, 09:47
For goodness sake you lot who cares about the ATPL theory exams they are just a meaningless rote-learning-and-regurgitation hoop you have to jump through on the way to the good stuff, which is of course developing the situational awareness / judgment / motor skills that comes from spending a few years at the controls of a very large very fast passenger jet.

A monkey could pass the ATPL writtens with enough coaching and a monkey could also pass some of the airy fairy nonsense that passes for degrees these days, I think we've established that.

Piloting doesn't mean passing the ATPL writtens- piloting means possessing the necessary judgment and skills required to take 500 lives in your hands, plan and execute a safe departure from a snow bound European city, navigate across 12 hours of mountain ranges and war zones, and and successfully land on an Asian runway in typhoon season. It is a skill that to me is far above and beyond what any wet behind the ears "degree" is capable of teaching.

Show some pride in your profession!

TeaTowel
19th Mar 2013, 13:47
Show some pride in your profession!

Well said Luke!

cgwhitemonk11
19th Mar 2013, 16:25
I was wondering if I could ask for some advice in relation to what degrees/qualifications you all think would help get me into a position to improve this industry? Thank you also to those on this thread who have advised me in the past.

I constantly read on these forums about how T&C's are degrading and 'numpty's are in charge, well instead of just bailing out I'd prefer to work out a long term strategy of putting myself in a position to improve things. My last two Chief Pilots were/are both remarkably admirable men who rule their prospective airlines/companies with common sense and a fair hand, and I think if more people like this can get into the right places then long term everything improves. Naive maybe, but we won't get anything if we don't try.

I'm currently flying as an FO for a small UK TP operator and am looking at around 3-4 years of busy summer seasons with plenty of downtime in the Winter months. Perfect to do a degree or some other distance learning course but am struggling to choose what to do. Physics and maths interest me, as does engineering. I'm looking to do something that will compliment my aviation career but not be completely reliant on me being a pilot either, something that will allow me to take it further too, as in the masters or post-graduate route... Or would I be better off with a business or some sort of law/management degree? (In the larger airlines they may open paths to management roles or is that too simplistic a view?)

As a background to myself I'm a pretty good pilot, and academically always worked hard. A1 Grades in English, Physics/Chemistry and a B in Higher Level Maths back in Ireland before I left. (No bragging here just so you have an idea I would be willing to tackle a high level or advanced degree)

Another influencing factor is my partner has a good job which offers her opportunities to work worldwide, meaning there may potentially be periods in the future where taking a job outside of a flying role would be appealing.

I have looked at the OU website and am going to call them for a chat soon. Where I am located currently an online course is the only real option right now. My housemate currently does a distance learning Physics degree with them and is happy with how its going, also deferring your payments until you finish is appealing. Somewhere along the way an FI rating is a goal too, but financially not really an option for awhile.

As I said I'm looking at the long term route here, and any advice (good or bad, is appreciated). :ok:

Halfwayback
19th Mar 2013, 21:30
OK this thread is suffering from terminal thread drift.:ugh:

Let's get back to the OP or it is going to be closed :}

HWB

Herc708
20th Mar 2013, 10:38
Whilst it is not a requirement to have a degree to operate a glass cockpit aircraft, you will find that, if you show up at The Boeing Company or Airbus Industrie without a degree your CV will be in the bin rapidly. In fact, the base level for entry into these two great companies is likely to be a Masters degree and for anything serious, a PhD is the norm

It is common practice for pilots to dismiss university graduates. However, for most university graduates, operating a glass cockpit aircraft is not an intellectual challenge. The challenge they seek is to develop user-friendly, reliable flight deck software, work out the thermal dynamics of a jet engine, work out the mathematics required to navigate from one point on earth to another accurately, the performance charts, stress dynamics of composite material, the physics involved in aerodynamics - need I go on. Most of them carry out work for buttons - if anything. Let's thank our university friends for the contributions they have made to aviation and, made flying so safe for the general public. Your work has made flying easier, thanks for your efforts. H708 BSc(Hons), MCP