Gliders & Parachutes

[vjmehra]

Having been gliding once a few years back I thought I may give it a go again, anyway looking at a few schools in and around London / The South East, I noticed a decent number (yet not all) of schools say everyone must wear parachutes.

Given I've never seen this for microlights or light aircraft, is there any particular reason behind this, i.e. are gliders more susceptible to structural failures or something like that? I presume that's not the case, but I wasn't sure what the answer was.

Or is it simply a case of, for whatever reason the gliding community simply has an additional safety requirement in place?

[BackPacker]

They are more susceptible to mid-air collisions, as they tend to gather around the same bit of sky where the lift is found.

[Crash one]

Gliders do tend to spend a lot of time in close proximity to each other in thermals & on ridges where the lift is concentrated in small areas & everyone wants some of the action.
Just my experience of the reason.

Edit: Backpacker beat me to it

[vihai]

Given I've never seen this for microlights or light aircraft, is there any particular reason behind this, i.e. are gliders more susceptible to structural failures or something like that?


Gliders are usually more robust than other aircrafts (Utility category) because they are usually flew aggressively in rough conditions.

Structural failures are not an issue, instead they are more susceptible to in-flight collisions since we fly often close together in the same thermal or ridge.

AFAIK the parachute is mandated by law, at least it is so in Italy and most gliders have seats designed for it and cannot be flown without.

Ciao,

[vjmehra]

Ah okay, that does make sense!

Out of curiosity, I guess most people have never tried...but would you have much time to get out and activate a parachute in a mid-air collision?

I guess to be honest, the answer is probably along the lines of...maybe, but better to have one and find out than not and never know!

[A and C]

I know three people who have abandoned gliders, two due to mid air collisions while thermaling and one due to structural failure in severe turbulence ( in Southern Europe )

I don't think anyone gets into a glider without a chute !

I will add that the risk of a gilder having a structural failure is so low that it alone does not justify a parachute.

[BabyBear]

There is many a glider pilot alive today as the result of pulling the chute.

BB

[vjmehra]

Excellent, well that's answered everything in record time :-)

I guess one more maybe, any recommendations on gliding schools in and around London (ideally south, south/east, but I can be flexible)...

[A and C]

Both the mid air collisions that I know of personally the pilots stated that once they had jettisoned the canopy as soon as they released the seat harness they found themselfs ejected from the glider presumably due to the out of balance forces of half an airframe trying to fly !

[mary meagher]

Try Lasham for south of London, near Basingstoke. South east of London is rather restricted because of airspace problems. Lasham is a very big club and owns its own field. Both winch and aerotow. Tell them Mary sent you....

[JimCrawford]

Nip up the M40 to Windrushers Gliding Club at the Bicester Gliding Centre.
www.windrushers.org.uk (http://www.windrushers.org.uk)

Jim

[RatherBeFlying]

Every modern single seater designs the CG for a pilot with chute. The couple inches forward a chute gives you help keep the CG within limits.

Haven't had to use mine yet:ok:

[chrisN]

Glider/glider collisions were very few and far between in the 1970s, increased in frequency in the following decades, and in recent years have been slightly fewer. We don’t know if the latter is a genuine improvement or a statistical blip.

For about three decades, they accounted for an average of nearly one fatality a year, or nearly a third of total gliding fatalities.

There are also non-fatal collisions, of course. It is estimated that about half of those which could have been fatal, in fact were saved from being so by pilots having and using parachutes.

In the UK, it is not a legal requirement to wear a parachute in a glider. Most if not all gliding clubs insist on all pilots wearing parachutes in club gliders, however, unless the pilot is simply too heavy and has to take a cushion so as still to fit the recess in the seat. Similarly, almost all privately owned gliders are flown by pilots wearing parachutes.

Overall accident rates in gliders are rather better than power flying, AIUI, but the relative incidence of causes is quite different. For example, CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) is a relatively common cause of fatal accidents in power flying but almost unknown in gliding.

Learning gliding is pretty safe, as is learning power flying. The dangers seem to come later, when one form or another of pilot error is the most common factor - and that is up to us.

Chris N

[vjmehra]

Cool, thanks for the suggestions on clubs...are there any near train stations as I don't have a car :-(

[SEP Flyer]

Kenley has the Surrey Hills Gliding Club (London borough of Croydon) and has rail stations close by :ok:

[mary meagher]

vj, that'll be Windrushers, then as the Bicester train station is within about half a mile -

And regarding use of PARACHUTES IN GLIDERS, not only is it useful in the event of a midair...a few years back there was a notorious incident near Dunstable, when a two seater K21 glider was STRUCK BY LIGHTNING!

Both pilots bailed out, using their parachutes safely, though one chap sprained an ankle on landing. They didn't need to open the canopy as it had disintegrated. The AAIB took the pieces of glider and found that the lightning strike had been considerably ABOVE the current provision (current, heh!) reuired to equip air transport to survive lightning strikes.

It melted the controls in the K21, and burnt the hairs on the back of the instructors neck and made him deaf for an hour or two. So there you go, parachutes in gliders a good idea. Would they let you carry your parachute on board an airliner? It might upset the other passengers.....

[ChrisA87]

Out of curiosity, I guess most people have never tried...but would you have much time to get out and activate a parachute in a mid-air collision?I know of an incident where a pilot bailed at 800ft and survived without injury, but I'm told most are rated at 400-500ft minimum opening height.

Since Mary has started the club-plugging, I'll highly recommend Kent Gliding Club (http://www.pprune.org/www.kent-gliding-club.co.uk/) at Challock (near Ashford in Kent) which has two railway stations nearby and plenty of members willing to give lifts.

It's relatively small compared to the likes of Lasham but has an excellent atmosphere with 7 days of flying in the Summer. PM if you want more information or want to to arrange a visit.

[chevvron]

I've 'experienced' 3 glider pilots taking to their 'chutes from an ATC point of view.
1. Farnborough based aircraft south of Basingstoke advised us he'd seen a glider fuselage descending ahead of him with the wings fluttering down nearby, and the pilot on his parachute descending too. We alerted Odiham who had a Puma in the circuit. The Puma picked up the glider pilot before he had chance to gather up his parachute and took him to sick quarters at Odiham.
2. During a competition at Lasham, a tug called to advise us there had been a mid-air collision. Once again we asked Odiham helicopters launched a search.
3. When gliding was still allowed at Farnborough, the club caravan called ATC to advise one of their aircraft appeared to have had structural failure and the pilot had parachuted out. In fact it transpired it had had a mid air with a C152 transitting adjacent to the ATZ.

[Prop swinger]

A link to the BGA Find a club page (http://www.gliding.co.uk/findaclub/southeast.htm).

vjmehra,

Most clubs do weekday &/or weekend courses during the summer & can offer some form of on-site accommodation. If you can get the time off I would really recommend a 5 day midweek course to get you off to a flying start.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Just idle curiosity, but do these guys who bail out join the caterpillar club??

[vjmehra]

Wow, thanks for the suggestions, looks like a few useful options!

[A and C]

Just for the record there is a gliding club at Booker, Train to high Wycombe and Bus to the airfields gate !

[wrecker]

I stand to be corrected but I think "the Caterpillar Club" is for an emergency parachute descent using an Irving Chute

[GAZSD]

100m metres is min deployment height for many chutes and that will put you on the ground with chute safely fully deployed

I know of others where the minimum deployment height is only 60 metres

You pays yer money and takes your choice

Richard

[thing]

I think the chances of getting out of a glider are considerably higher than getting out of a spamcan. Flying both, I would feel distinctly naked without a 'chute in a glider yet it doesn't bother me at all not wearing one in a spammy. Weird.

I think glider 'chutes are fast deployment as well. Don't ask me how or what the difference between that and an ordinary 'chute is; I just wear 'em.

[vjmehra]

Yep, presumably the canopy can be opened quickly and that makes it a hell of a lot easier to get out, than out of a side door in a hurry, with the airframe tumbling towards the ground!!

[treadigraph]

If you want to see an example of a low exit and fast 'chute deployment, look up Rob Davies' jump from the Mustang at Duxford in 2011 which is a classic. Mid-air with a Skyraider at, what, 700'?, bail out at 500', full canopy at perhaps 200 or 250'. Quick decision to abandon, superfast deployment of the kit.

[thing]

Bit OT but further to the last post I remember when I was in the mob reading an accident report on a Gnat (yes I'm that old..) that said if the pilot had ejected a third of a second later he would have been killed....

I also remember a Jag having badly rigged controls that entered a slow roll directly after take off, the pilot had the presence of mind to wait until it had done almost one complete roll before he pulled the handle otherwise he would have fired himeself into the deck...I bet that seemed like the longest slow roll in history.

[POBJOY]

Caterpillar Club = Irvin Equipment
" " with diamond eyes = " " & a/c on fire

Goldfish Club = P B Cow* Ltd Dinghies L-Jackets

No doubt many had all three !!

Better Known for the Li-Lo Air bed.

[Heady1977]

So there you go, parachutes in gliders a good idea. Would they let you carry your parachute on board an airliner? It might upset the other passengers..... I carried a parachute onto a commercial jet to Spain last year... with no problems. Was glider flying at Jaca and was rung up by the club a day before I left - was subsequently told that there had been an accidental deployment of a chute by one of the members in the previous group and they now had no spares. Would I be able to take one with me? Wore the parachute as a backpack through check-in, (didn't want the chute tampered with or left out in the elements so elected to take it hand luggage), had it weighed, scanned at security, and boarding of a well known British airline. Stowed the parachute in its bag in the overhead bins. Then wore the parachute as a backpack from disembarkation through luggage collection, through immigration and into the arrivals hall. No-one battered an eye.

[India Four Two]

Heady,

You were lucky. Obviously no one recognized it for what it was. I was once carrying a Security 150 (in its bag) and I was required to check it in.

[Heady1977]

I was once carrying a Security 150 (in its bag) and I was required to check it in. Maybe I was lucky. My experience was in the UK at Heathrow - other countries and airports may be different.
I also understand that the UK over does most rules. I did expect being interrogated/questioned - but was not.

Carrying parachutes on aircraft as hand luggage is allowed in the security conscious USA - so I couldn't see why it would not be allowed in the UK (I could not find equivalent advice specifically for the UK).
http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Newsletters/Traveling%20with%20Your%20Rig%20Dec%2009.pdf
U.S. Parachute Association > USPA Members > Membership > Travel > Within the U.S. (http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/Membership/Travel/WithintheUS/tabid/311/Default.aspx)

Edit: This was not the airline I traveled with but after an internet search found this:
Can I bring a Parachute? (http://www.ryanair.com/en/questions/can-i-bring-a-parachute)

[Thecope]

A search for Glider on the AAIB website and you'll find número use ones that have used a parachut

[abgd]

I think I'd be alarmed to have a Puma helicopter land by me before I'd gathered up my parachute, and even if I'd stepped out of the harness... I would have thought any sensible helicopter pilot would also want to keep well clear. Or perhaps it looked different at the time?

[BackPacker]

Why are we discussing whether parachutes are allowed in hand luggage? Of course they are, assuming they fall within the weight and size limits for hand luggage in general. How would a terrorist make use of a parachute to hijack a plane?

In 1971 there was a guy who extorted $200.000 and subsequently jumped from a 727 (rear airstair) in-flight. As a result of that, the 727 is now equipped with a vane that prevents opening of the airstair in-flight. All other doors of airliners are constructed so that they cannot conceivably be opened in-flight. So this type of hijack/extortion/"terrorist attack" is no longer possible.

D. B. Cooper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper)

The only provision, as mentioned in the Ryanair page, is that your parachute cannot have any pyrotechnics or such incorporated.

[Anywings]

Bill Waterton (I think it was) wrote in his book that he'd delivered a Meteor to Egypt and caught a commercial flight home; one of the passengers seeing the parachute he was carrying 'looked perplexed', so he winked back and said "I know the pilot..."