Cancel STAR Speed Restrictions

[BigSkyTheory]

Question for the jet jockeys.

When ATC tells you to 'CANCEL STAR SPEED RESTRICTIONS', what does it mean to you?

Please don't turn this into a thread about phraseology issues - this is a genuine attempt to find out what people think when they receive the above instruction. There seem to be a number of interpretations around the traps and I'm curious to find out what they are.

[Lookleft]

I interpret the instruction to be profile descent speed below 10000' until the normal slow down point to meet my companies speed restrictions.

I think I know where your heading with your question, it is not a clearance to operate max speed above and below 10000'. That is covered with the phrase"maintain max speed above and below 10000 cancel STAR speed restrictions". If you are not given a clearance to descend at maximum speed then the requirement is to descend at profile.

[DeltaT]

Speed restrictions as depicted in the STAR no longer apply to you.

However max IAS250kts below 10,000ft would still apply as an overall airspace restriction. -Though I've read some aircraft types are exempt on that.

[DeltaT]

As far as I know the 250knts below 10000 is a universal requirement. Its a bit like putting the max speed for the approach thats the max speed for your aircraft category anyway.

Are you talking about 250 bla up in the top corner of the plate picture (i.e stating whats standard), or specifically on a track?

[BuzzBox]

What if the 250kts below 10'000' is depicted in the STAR?

There is a blanket restriction of 250kts below 10,000' in Class C airspace. That restriction still applies unless it is specifically cancelled by ATC.

[BigSkyTheory]

Aha! Glad I started this discussion. We appear to have two schools of thought here. If ATC tell you to CANCEL STAR SPEED RESTRICTIONS, some pilots (like LookLeft) interpret it as:
Cancel all speed restrictions - those specified on the STAR plate AND the generic 250 below ten. Profile above 10 but no need to slow from profile until your company SOPs tell you to.
But some pilots (BuzzBox and DeltaT) interpret it as:
Specific STAR speed restrictions are cancelled, but the generic 250 below 10 remains.
I've also heard pilots asking if CANCEL STAR SPEED RESTRICTIONS includes high-speed above 10 as well.

So which is it? I have my ideas (which - disclaimer - as far as I know are what is meant by controllers in my little part of the Australian ATC world), but I'm interested to hear what pilots think first.

[Capt Fathom]

Are we talking about Australia here?

The only speed restriction I have seen on a STAR is 250kts below 10000'.
So if you get 'CANCEL STAR SPEED RESTRICTIONS', that must be it!

Having noted that, I don't get out much!

[Lookleft]

Not all aircraft in the terminal area are on STARS so that's where the blanket 250 kts below 10 applies. If ATC cancel the 250 and you have been given a STAR clearance then the restriction no longer applies. Think about it, they want to create adequate spacing, why would they cancel one speed restriction only to have the same restriction applied?

[Hempy]

I'd guess that if he says "cancel speed restrictions on the STAR", he means "cancel the speed restrictions ASSOCIATED with your STAR clearance".......as opposed to "cancel speed restrictions above and below 10,000"...

[KIWI+PILOT]

Straight from AIP
ENR 1.5 10.3.18
When ATC cancels all STAR speed restrictions this includes cancellation of any general requirement to maintain 250KT or less below A100.

Hope this helps.

[Jack Ranga]

It took a kiwi to find this in AIP :ugh:

[travelator]

Buzzbox and delta, the 250 below 10k in class C applies only to VFR. STARS are IFR procedures so the limit does not apply (unless specifically annotated on the terminal area chart).

In any case, the kiwi has the answer (also in Jepps terminal)

[RENURPP]

Buzzbox and delta, the 250 below 10k in class C applies only to VFR. STARS are IFR procedures so the limit does not apply (unless specifically annotated on the terminal area chart).

Not anymore, AIC H15/13

Sorry about the formatting, I copied using an ipad and this is as good as I could do.

65. AIRCRAFT SPEEDS
65.1 Unless required for safety reasons civil aircraft must not be operated at indicated airspeeds greater than the following:

Airspace Classification
Flight Rules
Speed
Class A
IFR
N/A
Class C
IFR
VFR
250kts below 10,000FT AMSL, except where specified in ERSA, DAP or varied by ATC *(Note 1)
250KT IAS below 10,000FT AMSL
Class D
IFR & VFR
200KT IAS -- at or below 2,500FT AAL within 4 NM of the
primary Class D aerodrome *(Note 2)
250KT IAS -- in the remaining Class D airspace
Class E
IFR & VFR
250KT IAS below 10,000FT AMSL
Class G
IFR & VFR
250KT IAS below 10,000FT AMSL
* Note 1: ATC may approve speeds in excess of the limits specified for Class C airspace in the table above for air traffic management or at pilot request.
* Note 2: If traffic conditions permit, ATC may approve a pilot’s request to exceed the 200 KT speed limit to a maximum limit of 250 KT unless the pilot informs ATC a higher minimum speed is an operational requirement.

[mince]

Travelator, new rule - 250 below A100 applies to everyone, if not already in play very soon will be.

I reckon cancel star speed restrictions means maintain profile speed, disregard any speed restrictions on the star.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Got a ref?

Kiwi's ref is the current amendment, H06/13 refers to putting new towers in Melb and Adelaide and ENR 1.1 Para 65 actially says N/A restriction for IFR in Class C unless specified in ERSA.:confused:

[mince]

Look in the SUPs, not AIC.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Ahh, there we go http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/sup/s13-h15.pdf, effective 7 Mar 13.

What about terminal areas other than Bris, Melb or Perth?:confused:
(Not that I'll be needing to anyhoo.:})

[travelator]

Oops, missed that sup. Thanks renurpp.

Again, the relevant reference here is in Jepps terminal - STAR 3.18 (sorry, only have electronic version these days and the references are slightly different).

When ATC cancels all STAR speed restrictions this includes cancellation of any general requirement to maintain 250 kt or less below A100.

I can't see anything in either SUP that overrides this.

[BigSkyTheory]

That's the AIP ref I was aiming for, happy someone's found it. :cool:
The way I (and other controllers in my group, perhaps others in the rest of the room too, I don't know) intend it to mean is that the 250kt below 10 speed restriction is cancelled... go as fast as you like/are allowed to go below 10, but profile speed above.
If we want you to go fast above 10 (because there's someone up your clacker), you'll get something like 'descend at maximum speed, cancel STAR speed restrictions'. In that case, it's balls to the wall, please.
And if we don't particularly care if you go fast or not (ie you're on your own in the sequence), it might change to something like 'no speed restrictions' (and I'll normally throw in the 'above or below 10' here as well, just to avoid doubt). Then it's left entirely to your discretion - go fast if you want, or maintain profile, whatever.
It does sound a bit silly to say 'cancel STAR speed restrictions' when it's to an aircraft not on a STAR, as sometimes happens, but that's how they tell us to say it.
Thanks all, interesting discussion.

[Wally Mk2]

This will be good I've seen this AIC recently & I'd like to see this new speed requirement work properly. Bit like the COBT, that's about as effective as wet toilet paper!!!:ugh:20 mins delay on COBT, slow down enroute, hold, exit the hold early & max speed on decent!...yep works well much like a well oiled Russian 2 stroke lawn mower !
I love the 'big stick' theory too, how would ATC know what's on the speedo? Retribution, it's about retribution!
Some one could be doing 170kts & another doing 140kts 10 knots either side of their requirement & still be legal.
Anyway they can chop & change the rules moving the goal posts all they like as any airborne restrictions rarely works & isn't the issue, shoot a few Pollies then we might get somewhere!:ugh:

Wmk2