single engine firefighting

[206Fan]

AS350 Firefighting!

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[Steve76]

I have to say - I actually felt afraid a couple of times. Admittedly the perspective is skewed but that bucket was very close to the ground, he was transiting through almost non-VFR vis, everything was a rush and the bucket continually hit the ground before the water tank, it looks like rising ground to the RHS of the water tank - why isn't the tail downhill (?) and finally he fly's into the smoke again after flying past a larger pool at 07:30 sec's. He probably couldn't get into it due having the bucket on the belly. There is a lot to be said for a 100ft line.

[erang5]

Hi

Which types and where SE helis are actually participate in dropping water on fire? Is this effective? Is this cost efective?

Thanks

[krypton_john]

Down this way - whatever is available. Typically AS350 and MD500 variants. In fact, this is the norm.

It is generally neither high nor particularly hot though.

[topendtorque]

Over here heaps of squirrels, in fact I believe the cheapest price quote a couple of years back per litre of water delivered was via the lycoming engined variety or standard B3..
But in reality when push comes to shove and assets are scarce especially in the fringe states such as Tasmania which have 206's often on the bucket line and in the Northern Territory, 206 and R44's.There seems to be a couple 206L getting around most places as well.

Victoria and NSW have the highest population base and the most firefighting activity where 206's nowadays get to fly around directing the traffic only.

Bucket work on fires was started with 206's back in late seventies just after Airfast went into receivership.

[apb]

In Spain and Portugal:
AS350
Bell 205
Bell 407
AW119

AS350 B3+ are very fast and very effective with a good pilot

[John Eacott]

Hi

Which types and where SE helis are actually participate in dropping water on fire? Is this effective? Is this cost efective?

Thanks

The cost effective medium singles include the B205, B214B and the AS350B3, all of which are in use in the continuing bushfires this summer in Victoria and Tasmania.

NSW used to have a heavy reliance upon the B206 and then the AS350 for initial fire response, but these are generally only now used for AAS (Air Attack Supervisor) except in extreme conditions such as the Mt Wellington fire west of Hobart in the early days two weeks ago,when nothing else was available.

[rotorrookie]

you can seen in this vid how effective the AS-350 can be, specially in tight situations and confined areas
AS350 Helicopter Fire Fighting 2012 - YouTube

[hueyracer]

We have discussed this Video before-and this is not a "good" example of fire fighting.....

[What Limits]

Mostly AS350, B204, B205, B214, EC120 and 130, plus a few 212 Singles in Canada.

[gulliBell]

We have discussed this Video before-and this is not a "good" example of fire fighting.....

Crikey, that's a bloody short line on that bucket!

[Gordy]

Light singles...highly effective in the right hands. Obviously depends on fuel type , terrain, wx etc.....

The Bell 206L4 with TRAC's, AS350B3 and Bell 407 are used extensively in the US... Can point you in the right direction for more info if needed.

BTW--as hueyracer stated---That video is THE WORST example of heli-firefighting I have ever seen. And I do this full time.

[mickjoebill]

Crikey, that's a bloody short line on that bucket!

Shortened until it came into the camera frame?

BTW--as hueyracer stated---That video is THE WORST example of heli-firefighting I have ever seen. And I do this full time.

For those of us who are uninitiated could you elaborate?


Mickjoebill

[Aesir]

Like has been said. If there is a fire take every asset available and use it. There is a village just meters away.

Maybe in the above video the pilot is not long-line experienced but the only one available on short notice! He´s doing a hell of a better job than no helicopter at all.

[hueyracer]

Have a look at how the bucket is swinging-he is not able to stabilize it on his approach.

Have a look at his pattern-it is the pattern a "low time pilot" would choose...

Have a look at his drops-they are inaccurate, and in the wrong spots.

Fighting fire does NOT mean to drop water into the flames-more important than that is to cut the way the fire will take, and prevent it from growing...

Last but not least his turns are too big-he could be more efficient than that.

With that short line, the wind (and oxygen) he is putting into the fire have a bigger effect than the few drops of water (that he can´t drop in the right spots)...

But i have seen pilots like this many times-in Portugal and Spain....

Don´t want to comment on that any further......

[erang5]

Thank you for your reply

I greatly appreciate if you can comment on the following:

What will be your recommendation if you had to choose between 407 and AS350B3 and why?

What is the best configuration (bucket vs tank)?

Once again
Thank you guys for helping me

[Gordy]

AS 350 B3 bucket, but expect to pay lots.

For less money Bell 206 L4 with TRACs, better performance than the 407, slightly less than the 350.

[Aesir]

Bucket because you can fill it where water level is low.

The type depends more on support in your area and availability of type rated pilots and mechanics. 350B3 or 407 or 206L4 are all good choices. Also B212 is a consideration!

Fixed wing also if there is a big lake nearby but I would always want to have the fixed wing just to supplement the helicopters. The helicopters big or small will usually always move more tons of water pr/hr to the area than fix wings.

[apb]

Bucket because you can fill it where water level is low.

That´s true only if you have a bucket with PowerFill. A bucket without It where the water level is low is unuseful.

[hueyracer]

Ask 3 pilots-and you will get 4 different opinions...
;)

It all depends upon where you want to fly the machines...

I have seen Belly tanks with a retractable filling hose, i have seen Buckets with Powerfills.....but:

Every system/helicopter is only as good as the pilot operating it..


I do not understand some companies/customers insisting on Multi-Pilot operations in Multi-Engine-helicopters due to some dodgy "safety regulations"....


A single pilot/single engine helicopter (when well maintained), flown by a well trained and experienced pilot is as safe as a ME-helicopter flown by 2 experienced pilots......

One more thing comparing the bambi bucket to the belly tank:
The bambi bucket can easily be repaired-even in the field..

[rotorrookie]

when I actually looked better at video again and more on the droppings and missed spot's behind fire-line and more I have to agree with you Hueyracer, :bored: then again my point with the posting of it was more to show how quick smaller SE helicopters are in turnarounds.
He was also sometimes nearly in IMC there for few moments

[aegir]

In Italy currently we use only AS350 series (and two EC135).
For big dropping we have Canadair and S64 of Civil Protection.

[apb]

In Italy currently we use only AS350 series (and two EC135)

how many liters can load an EC135, i.e. MSL?

[infloweffect]

The As350 is an awesome bucket machine when using the B1 and upwards or better yet the Super D2 for the hotter climates. The B3 is right up there for load and power but expensive. The video dose show a quick turn around but poor bucket control and the pilot looked rushed. The fire was upslope burning towards the houses but better to place each load on the head of the fire close to the houses and work (tag ) on for each drop. The video show sporadic flying with no real appreciation of fire control. Just increasing the relative humidity is some cases. Belly bucketing is a good option for grass fire as the down wash is minimal with those kinds of fwd air speeds used. He just needs to slow his frantic pace to steady accurate pace, putting the wet stuff on the red stuff on target on time every time. Fire fighting can be very rewarding and dangerous in the hands of an impetuous pilot. Slower is faster. From my perspective a 205 or 212 with a power fill and have 50 & 100 foot lines and use foam where the environment can stand it. If you put 3 mediums such as the UH1 h with fast fin and strake and van horn tail rotor blades on a fire like that its cleaned up in an hour or so unless the RH is below 12 if you have the right guys driving them that is. Keep the ball in the middle guys.

[aerolearner]

In Italy currently we use only AS350 series (and two EC135).
For big dropping we have Canadair and S64 of Civil Protection.
Single engine helicopters that are or, at least until very recently, were used for firefighting duties in Italy also include:

NH500D (license-built in Italy by BredaNardi) of the National Forestry Service

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Ita_NH-500D_Corpo_Forestale_1.jpg

AB205 (license-built by Agusta) of the Army Aviation

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SA-315 Lama

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BR,

aerolearner

[aegir]

how many liters can load an EC135, i.e. MSL?

At SL, with pilot and 2,5 h of fuel, more or less 800 l.

Originally Posted by aerolearner
Single engine helicopters that are or, at least until very recently, were used for firefighting duties in Italy also include:
NH500D (license-built in Italy by BredaNardi) of the National Forestry Service
You are right, I have not considered the Parapublic forces (NH500, Bell from Army and sometimes AB412 from firebrigade) but the number it's very few and basically the firefighting servirce is prformed by civil operators.
I forgot also the Lamas!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[HeliStudent]

What do you think about this clip showing a Squirrel in Portugal?

The report says:

A video posted to LiveLeak shows just that, apparently in Portugal. The pilot is seen swooping in over the pool to load up with some chlorinated water, dump said water over a nearby fire, and come back once again for another round. This is quite an impressive bit of flying, as the pool has several obstacles surrounding it which may result in a disastrous ending.

Video: Helicopter Pilot In Portugal Fills Fire Fighting Bucket At Pool (http://www.nycaviation.com/2013/08/video-helicopter-pilot-in-portugal-fills-fire-fighting-bucket-at-pool/#.UhRvIdI3A81)

"911 whats? your emergency? SOME ASSHOLES ARE STEALING MY POOL WATER!" - YouTube

[Gordy]

What do you think about this clip showing a Squirrel in Portugal?

Looks like his first time with a bucket. He really needs to practice some more---zero bucket control.

[SASless]

Too short a line too.....

[lelebebbel]

The youtube comments are hilarious. "Greatest pilot in the world!!!" while the bucket is swinging around like a dog's tongue on a summer day...

Too short a line too.....

Yeah, but he would have probably taken out the house with a longer line :sad:

[Anthony Supplebottom]

while the bucket is swinging around like a dog's tongue on a summer day...

Dog's tongue or dog's something else! :eek:

Also, he nearly clipped the trees with the bucket on his way back in. Had the bucket become snared it could have been the end of his firefighting efforts for the day.

[1969shelby]

Would someone please share the reasons, pros and cons of using different length long lines for firefighting. Does it have to do with the type of fire, ie. grass fire vs a heavily wooded area, or is it based on water accessibility? Thanks for your help.

[Gordy]

Pros and cons of buckets on long lines...in no particular order:

Most of it comes down to personal preference, although depending upon terrain you could be forced to use a long line.

Grass fires tend to be easier to fight with the bucket on the belly hook because you can drop faster.

If the only place to dip is surrounded by trees then you have no choice but to put a long line on.

Downwash from the helicopter can fan the flames, so typically, the bigger the helicopter---the long line is preferred, especially on spot drops.

Some say that a line can slow you down, but in the hands of a good VR pilot I have not noticed that much difference.

[CYHeli]

And training? Everyone has commented on how this looks like a beginner, but how do you get experience, other than doing it? You can only train so much, then the deep end go.

From what I have seen in Australia, the process seems better with an Air Attack Supervisor calling the drops and everyone flying the same pattern, not like the guy in the vid, but does this system occur worldwide?

So training suggestions guys, how does one learn the best way to do this?

[Gordy]

Here in the US we also have air attack above the fire but he is controlling the overall strategy for that period.

As for training, you can do a baic long line training course and then get hired by a company that will bring you on and train on the job. The USFS allows companies to have an approved program for having a trainee "fire pilot" in the pilot seat and a "trainer" in the other seat---type 2 helos only. I have one of the approved training programs and have one for other pilots if they want to pay.

[1969shelby]

Gordy, thanks for your response to my post and the info you provided. What company are you affiliated with? I'd like to check out your web site. What positions make up your ground crew ie. mechanic etc? Is that a viable option for someone who is interested in getting started in pursuing fire fighting, as a way to learn as much as possible, but isn't yet qualified for flight operations? Feel free to PM me if this isn't suitable for a response on the open forum. Thanks again.

[CYHeli]

Thanks Gordy.
I have zero time on fires, but from friends who have been, they state that flying the AAS is part of the learning curve. By observing the fire pilots routine/system they are gaining some knowledge.

No replacement for long line training, but good exposure to the environment.

Changes to legislation here as Part61 will require 5 hours dual fire training. Although you only need 200 hours total time under legislation to gain the new fire endorsement, most Gov contracts require 1500 hours.

[Focha]

It's really strange reading all the comments here regarding some thoughts on the perceived experience of the pilot by watching a video.

Also, can all the firefighting pilots tell me 100% sure that their empty buck never swings? If you say yes, I'll say you are probably dreaming, since you don't watch your bucket 100% of the flying time.

I know the pilot on that video, and I can assure you he is not a rookie. But, then again, probably in some places you don't have the training you should have (talking without prove!), probably pilots should have a better training...

Maybe different zones requires different approach and thinking.

Have in mind the situation, fire close to houses, actually homes of someone. Also, this type of operation is normally coordinated with ground forces, and ground forces are the ones who request the drop (60% of the time).

Also, that camera should never be there, in the tail of the helicopter, that's a fact.

For disclosure, I am not a fire fighting helicopter nor do I have experience on it.

But I know, as a helicopter pilot, that is always easier to spot the bad piloting on others than on ourselves... You became a better helicopter pilot when you know what you do bad and try to correct it.

Cheers and fly safe.

[Flyting]

What is the best configuration (bucket vs tank)?
You decide...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmpf9gpVuA4

[SASless]

Depends upon what kind of Fire you are fighting and at what stage of the fire you are deployed.

You ever seen a for real Forest Fire when it is Crowning and really blowing up?

When that happens the biggest helicopter might as well be a guy with a Piss Pump(jargon for a hand pump back pack water apparatus) for what good you really do.:uhh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aoth5rEJ9vE

[havick]

Tanks vs buckets.

Well they're different tools.

Tanks are far better in urban interface and also when the smoke lays over.

Buckets are faster to fill and more access to smaller water sources when on a longline.

Then there's also contract requirements fore multi-role ships i.e. Rappel/bombing, then tanks make sense in that instance. NVG bombing - tanks.

So there's no real answer as to which one is better.

[SASless]

A good video by Columbia Helicopters that explains the various methods, buckets, and techniques they use with the Chinook and BV-107.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr5-2BZgZjY

[newfieboy]

Give me AS 350 B2 or B3 and 130ft longline over a 205/212 any day, turns a lot faster . Good bucket pilot can do same as CL 415 if water close. Although the CL's very impressive . We use 240 gal on B2 and the Fast bucket a la multi droop capability on B3.we got 2-3 machines manning up on IA right now. Was offered a seat in a AS350 yesterday. Unfortunately had to say no as been out 5 weeks already, and going forestry spraying in a week. Told the project manager I got grass to cut wife to see and most all my little man puppy to spend quality time with. Also St John's the happening place right now, full tourists ,Regatta today, George Street festival, Our Lady Peace tonite on the open air stage....bugger flight delayed now due in at 4am....just as bars closing. Hey Ho....Oh and the boss is having to fly 205 in Quebec for Sopfeu....all good no spare drivers....things looking up in our part of world anyways. Hey Gordy man, let me know next time in UK.ill meet ya in Wheatsheaf in Louth for catch up. Be safe man.

[RVDT]

Horses for courses!

Tanks don't restrict your category of operation WRT bomb/rappel as mentioned.

You can carry water a long way with a tank without losing 15-20% of your water as a bucket will.
The look on the bird dog BO105 pilot when I overlook him in a 205 with a full tank in Spain was funny!

It can depend on the region - i.e. Tanks in Spain (Catalunya) worked well but not so much in France as we had to
carry a buoy wall all the time as the French leave the trees alongside watercourses.

Tanks with restrictors and a split drop are great on grass fires - drop at about 100 knots! Because you can.

Worked alongside a KA32 in Oz with a big bucket and it was not so effective as the fire line there is not always so straight.
Consequence of a great gut load of water limited to a single drop.
Amazing machine but the downwash would drop pretty big trees even with a longline.
The bucket wasn't something you just folded up and threw in the boot either - and of course the issue with underslung in an urban area.

Tanks that I used were Conair/Frontier system - about as complicated as a Jet Banger!!
About a 40 second fill time which is significant as per SAS's video although it helps if you don't stick it in the mud!

When it all turns to custard the best machine I have seen is yellow with CAT on the side!!
That plus a torch to light up behind it. It can only burn once. But I digress...............
If I was a house owner under threat of a fire the last thing I would do before leaving is ring burn the joint! But that's possibly "illegal".

Did about 1200 hours with buckets and about 750 with tanks and then moved on....................:p

[fijdor]

Fire season is just about over, we take whatever shows up and with a single engine heli.
Brakes caught fire. Making sure the fire would not end up in the trees and while we are there may as well save the truck.

JD

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1lGeRkc8_4