RAF Avalanche deaths

[Whenurhappy]

Just seen...

Two RAF Personnel Were Avalanche Victims (http://news.sky.com/story/1052685/two-raf-personnel-were-avalanche-victims)

[b1beefer]

Per Ardua ad Astra guys...

:sad::sad::sad:

[CoffmanStarter]

Very sad news. Thoughts go out to family and close friends :(

[RigPig]

The second RAF person has been named. Flt Lt Fran Capps. I knew her through her work with the National Trust years ago and when she was at Southhampton Uni when she was in the same year as my wife. She was a lovely person and my thoughts go to her family and friends. RIP.

Flight Lieutenant Fran Capps (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/flight-lieutenant-fran-capps-16022013)

[Flap62]

Whilst it is undoubtably a tragedy for all concerned, it is somehow reassuring that these young people were continuing the finest traditions of the RAF and were involved in adventurous, healthy outdoor pursuits.

[SRENNAPS]

I have been away this week so was very, very sad news to hear of the loss of these two individuals from the Royal Air Force. My thoughts are with all of their family and friends. They were obviously outstanding people who I have no doubts served the RAF with pride and honour. I would suggest that they were outgoing people who enjoyed adventure and took life to the full. Flap32, I totally agree with your post, well said.

However, and I apologise if I offend anybody, but I do feel they deserve a few more tributes, here on PPRuNe Military Aircrew, than this! 2824 views and 5 replies, very sad indeed:(

[skippedonce]

Pushing the bounds; per ardua ad astra.

[Roger the cabin boy]

Tragedy. Fran was a mate of mine - great kid; fun, smart, good at her job and probably up for promotion soon. A real superstar and a massive loss to the Chinook Force.

Given the connection, can I suggest that the RAF Odiham gate guardian is re-branded FOXTROT CHARLIE.

RIP Frannie.

[SRENNAPS]

Given the connection, can I suggest that the RAF Odiham gate guardian is re-branded FOXTROT CHARLIE.

What a lovely suggestion :D:D It would be really nice if that could be done.

[Hueymeister]

RIP Rimon. Top, top bloke. Always a smile for everyone he met.

[GlobalTravellerAT]

I knew Fran in a professional sense only but she was only ever cheery, smiling and could brighten even the most dullest of days. A lovely Lady that will be sorely missed and was thought of fondly by all those that worked for her and knew her.
Heaven will be a happier place now you are there.

RIP Fran.

[sisemen]

Sounds like the RAF Mountain Rescue Winter Course - was it? If so, doubly tragic.

In the same spot, same course, Feb 68.

[Climebear]

Sounds like the RAF Mountain Rescue Winter Course - was it? If so, doubly tragic.

In the same spot, same course, Feb 68.

Siseman.

It wasn't the MRS Winter Course.

They were on a RAFMA meet.

Absolutely tragic news. To hear of the loss of 2 friends in the mountains both so young and both with so much promise.

[Trim Stab]

Very Tragic.

It would appear, however, from an article in the Daily Record, that they were not carrying AVDs. For the uninitiated, these are small battery powered short-range radio transceivers that greatly facilitate the recovery of avalanche victims. In my ski-mountaineering club here in France, we are not allowed out on the mountains in winter without AVDs, collapsible 3m probe and folding shovel. We also practise regularly their use. Statistics show that 92% of victims survive if recovered within 15 minutes, thereafter the percentage drops off a cliff down to about 10%. The best chance of survival therefore comes from other members of the climbing party being equipped and trained to carry out the recovery. By the time a helicopter arrives, it is usually too late.

This equipment is not expensive at all, and I am surprised that the RAFMA would appear not to require members of the party to carry it in any conditions where there is a risk of avalanche.

There also appears to have been a lack of awareness of avalanche risk as the article mentions that "two parties were on opposite sides of the valley". In general the avalanche risk in a valley is greater on one side than another, depending on wind direction and orientation to the sun, so it would appear to be that one of the parties was taking an unnecessary risk. I don't know the valley where the accident took place, but given that the snow was "like concrete" this suggests that they may have been on a south facing slope which has been subjected to thaw-freeze cycles. Here in France the excellent Meteo-France website puts out detailed avalanche risk forecasts which take into account weather patterns for the past two weeks and which are indispensable in route-planning. I don't know whether the UKMO puts out similar information.

Here is the Daily Record article:

Rescuer tells how Cairngorms avalanche victims were buried in snow 'like liquid concrete' for hours - Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rescuer-tells-how-cairngorms-avalanche-1712635)

[capewrath]

"Here in France the excellent Meteo-France website puts out detailed avalanche risk forecasts which take into account weather patterns for the past two weeks and which are indispensable in route-planning. I don't know whether the UKMO puts out similar information."

Avalanche info here:-
Avalanche Information for Scotland | sportscotland Avalanche Information Service (http://www.sais.gov.uk/)

[What Now]

RAF MRS not allowed on the hill in winter without AVDs

[Dan Gerous]

Very sad to hear this on the news earlier this week. I noticed on a news report from a previous incident, that the RAF Leeming MRT were all the way up to the Cairgorms for a rescue. Was the Kinloss MRT just done away with when Kinloss closed, or did they move to Lossie?

[WhiteOvies]

Very sad news, my wife knew Fran from SUAS and Cranwell. RIP, thoughts are very much with the friends and families of all involved.

[Biggus]

Dan,

Kinloss MRT is now Lossiemouth MRT, but still operating out of the Kinloss site/buildings for now (if that makes sense)!

[Dan Gerous]

Thanks Biggus.

[sisemen]

Thanks for that climebear. As an ex-member of RAFMA as well my condolences.

[Trim Stab]

RAF MRS not allowed on the hill in winter without AVDs

An MRS team would be useless without them. But they are only any use if the people they are looking for are also wearing them.

The question remains - were the people on this RAFMA trip wearing them? Reading between the lines of the Daily Record article, it would appear not because the rescuers were using a dog to search for them.

[What Now]

RAF MRS wear them as much for their own safety as those they might be rescuing. You are right they are rarely used in the UK, more's the pity speaking as a former MRS member who has dug out and carried off the bodies of avalanche victims whilst on the team in the UK.

[sturb199]

Trim Stab:

A few points, Avalanche Transceivers are not generally worn in the UK by anyone climbing or walking as it simply not a UK norm, the exceptions to this rule are either MRT's or Ski Tourers who do tend to wear them as a matter of course, this clearly may well change in the future given the present trend. Of note on this subject Glenmore Lodge (the Scottish national mountain training centre) do not issue them to students and instead prefer to advocate the avoidance of avalanche hazards and terrain.

Your regular quoting of the Daily Record article also demonstrates why there is at present a huge uprising within UK mountaineering circles against the way in which the press are reporting these incidents. The press as ever have written complete drivel on the subject and none of it can be used to determine the cause of this incident, nor the experience levels of those involved.

Please remember that the UK is a very different mountain environment to the continent and as such the hazards are not always what they seem!

[Trim Stab]

Your regular quoting of the Daily Record article also demonstrates why there is at present a huge uprising within UK mountaineering circles against the way in which the press are reporting these incidents. The press as ever have written complete drivel on the subject and none of it can be used to determine the cause of this incident, nor the experience levels of those involved.

The Daily Record article did not criticise the climbers at all, nor did it criticise their experience, nor did it criticise the equipment that they were carrying or not carrying, nor did it include any drivel. I thought it was a factual report, quoting well informed and eye-witness sources.

It was me who asked if the RAFMA party were carrying AVDs and whether they were trained in their use. I expect that the inquest will ask the same questions. The MOD has a legal and moral obligation to minimise unreasonable risk when providing adventure training (remember Trevor Jones?) and I expect that lessons will be learnt here. AVDs really should be obligatory on MOD winter mountain adventure training, just as lifejackets are obligatory on MOD kayaking adventure training, or helmets on MOD climbing adventure training.

Given the reported snow conditions at the time - "like liquid concrete" - it is unlikely that the victims would have survived in this particular accident even if the other members of the party were properly equipped and trained with DVAs, probes and shovels. However, I hope that this will lead to a change in SOPs. The next MOD avalanche victims may be caught in the sort of avalanche which is survivable - as long as other members of the party are equipped and trained to carry out an immediate rescue.

[XV277]

Would there be an inquest? Scotland does not have a system of inquests, and I can't remember if they would automatically apply to military personnel killed in Scotland?

[baffman]

Would there be an inquest? Scotland does not have a system of inquests, and I can't remember if they would automatically apply to military personnel killed in Scotland?

The Scottish equivalent would be a Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI) presided over by a Sheriff. An FAI certainly can be held into the deaths of service personnel in Scotland, such as the one into the Mull of Kintyre Chinook accident. Legislation is pending about FAIs into the deaths of service personnel abroad.

As these tragic avalanche deaths are presumably not suspicious or unexplained, and possibly not directly in the course of employment, my guess is that an FAI in this case would not be mandatory. There have been other avalanche deaths in Scotland this season, as you know, so that may be a factor in the decision whether or not to hold one in this case.

[Climebear]

Your regular quoting of the Daily Record article also demonstrates why there is at present a huge uprising within UK mountaineering circles against the way in which the press are reporting these incidents. The press as ever have written complete drivel on the subject and none of it can be used to determine the cause of this incident, nor the experience levels of those involved.

The Daily Record article did not criticise the climbers at all, nor did it criticise their experience, nor did it criticise the equipment that they were carrying or not carrying, nor did it include any drivel. I thought it was a factual report, quoting well informed and eye-witness sources.

It was me who asked if the RAFMA party were carrying AVDs and whether they were trained in their use. I expect that the inquest will ask the same questions. The MOD has a legal and moral obligation to minimise unreasonable risk when providing adventure training (remember Trevor Jones?) and I expect that lessons will be learnt here. AVDs really should be obligatory on MOD winter mountain adventure training, just as lifejackets are obligatory on MOD kayaking adventure training, or helmets on MOD climbing adventure training.

Given the reported snow conditions at the time - "like liquid concrete" - it is unlikely that the victims would have survived in this particular accident even if the other members of the party were properly equipped and trained with DVAs, probes and shovels. However, I hope that this will lead to a change in SOPs. The next MOD avalanche victims may be caught in the sort of avalanche which is survivable - as long as other members of the party are equipped and trained to carry out an immediate rescue.

If the individuals were on a RAFMA meet they were not undertaking adventurous training. Whereas mountaineering, and other activities, is used as a means of meeting the objectives of adventurous training, not all mountaineering is adventurous training.

RAFMA is a sports club under the RAF Sports Board. Like the vast majority of other mountaineering and climbing clubs in England and Wales, it is affiliated to the British Mountaineering Council. It follows the BMC's guidance.

[The Old Fat One]

RIP to fallen comrades.

I know only what I've read in the press, which is usually drivel, but it seems to have occurred in the vicinity of the Chalamain Gap. I don't know if it was in it, or near it.

For those not familiar, this is a about a 400 metre, narrow, shallow, rubble filled gorge which lies on the north exit of the Larig Ghru and must be transitted if you are making for the Sugar Bowl Car Park (you can avoid it if head direct to the CoylumBridge Hotel).

It is a ****ing awful 400 metres. On a dry day it's an awkward stumble over the rocks and boulders. On a wet day its a slippery hell hole. No idea what it's like in snow...I wouldn't go near it mid winter.

Last time I was there (just before midnight mid June) I noticed a new path that seemed to head up and round it, but I didn't take because it was dark and I was familiar with the old route. Now I'm wondering if they were on that path, cresting on side of the gorge, rather than going thru' the middle???

Trim Stab, this is a pretty unique feature, the floor of the gorge is 700 metres and the sides are about 50-60 metres up, although the south eastern flank does slope up much higher to the ridge coming off Lurcher's Crag.

There have been nine fatalities in the highlands in 2013. I am reminded of a quote by Cameron McNeish in one of my Munro books..

"There is no hillwalking in the highlands in winter. It is all mountaineering"

[Davef68]

There have been nine fatalities in the highlands in 2013. I am reminded of a quote by Cameron McNeish in one of my Munro books..

"There is no hillwalking in the highlands in winter. It is all mountaineering"

My own instructor at Glenmore Lodge told me that the Alps in winter are only preparation for the Highlands. He was of the opinion that only Scandanavia provided more challenging conditions in Europe.

[baffman]

Last time I was there (just before midnight mid June) I noticed a new path that seemed to head up and round it, but I didn't take because it was dark and I was familiar with the old route. Now I'm wondering if they were on that path, cresting on side of the gorge, rather than going thru' the middle???

This is all speculation at the moment, but some of the reports have mentioned casualties being on BOTH sides of the gap at the time of the avalanche. Photographs show snow slabs piled up at the bottom of the gap.

I agree with your description of the Chalamain Gap. Some here will recognise it as a handy route between the Rothiemurchus Hut and the high tops.