RW rookie vs. FW rookie job prospects

[DoobyDoo]

Hi again @all,

the question might be silly, but please be forgiving. I would really like to check some qualified guesses on this.

As I have written in other threads, I am nothing like the typical pilot and thus have even worse odds than all the rest. End 30s/around 40 at finishing training, female, self sponsored modular training. Job hunting grounds: Germany, Scandinavia, UK (I am fluently multilingual).

With the above mentioned handicaps :E, which would you rather be in terms of hoping for one of the rare low-timer slots:

- FW rookie with ATPL, low timer

- RW rookie with ATPL(H), low-timer with some instructing experience

Reason for asking: I have spoken to various flight schools both FW and RW, believing none of them as they only want my best (= cash), but it did make me think twice when one helo FI said that the RW industry was a little more forgiving in terms of age/background, with a similar chance for lowtimer-slots as in the FW world (considering the ratio of trained pilots vs. job offerings - just his words, though). So his conclusion was, if "untypical" and "too old" he would prefer the rotary industry - next to not wasting the money at all of course.

Then again, the only visible RW market around my area is Offshore, which seems to be like the most male dominated business EVER.

Any thoughts? Is he right?

[Thomas coupling]

Doobydoo, you need to hook up with "FAR Cu", she's doing the same but has chosen the rotary route.
What do you want out of life? Is money important? Is job content important? The former is FW and the latter...you've guessed it.
Once that decision is made everything falls into place. Get yourself seen/heard/spoken about. Don't waste too much time with CV's. Go visit. Withe the bonus of being multi lingual and able to cover huge european catchment areas, the world's your oyster.
There's still some mileage left in you yet! :oh:

[gulliBell]

...there are so many jobs for A320 co-pilots at the moment I'd be taking the FW route, get a multi IR, then a cheap A320 co-pilot type rating on a sim in China. With those set of quals, even with minimum experience, I reckon it won't take you long to find a FO job....

[pilot and apprentice]

I was pondering the FW vs RW thing about 20 years ago. In those days jumpseats were still open and I was able to swing a couple sectors in an A320 and a couple in a Dash 8. At the time I was working RW but 1/3 of my time was FW and it was time to make a final decision.

I decided that I would hang myself from the cockpit ceiling if I went the FW route. Just me, I know, but money isn't everything.

As it turns out, my RW career has often been more lucrative than the FW peers I diverged from, the jobs more varied, and I have never been a slave to a seniority number. North Sea offshore sounds as if that number is king, like an airline, unfortunate.

If offshore RW is your desire in the end, your maturity will offset any gender issue that may crop up in the international touring segment. Times have changed and the places were it is an issue are getting fewer and further between. I'd be surprised if it was any issue 'locally'.

Research is your friend, and then just decide where you want to be in 10 yrs: geographically (offshore international touring RW, live anywhere); professionally (teaching, experiencing it all, stablility?); and personally (family, recreation, social).

My 2 cents, and good luck!

[DoobyDoo]

Thanks for some insight, keep it coming please.

As for the abovementioned factors:

- Money...ya. Must live, maybe pay back a loan for FW-TR or the extra cost for ATPL(H). Not top of the list.
- Stability...is an issue. Getting around is cool - a new job every year is not in the longer term (not counting in the years where you establish yourself / build hours). Jobs that can be expected to last me 2-3 years would suit me well, if longer even better. At the very least, I would have to know that this long-term job is out there and that I can work up to it.
- Geography...is connected to job stability. Fortunately, my better half will be able to find work more or less anywhere (MD), but dragging the complete household around the next corner for the next intermediate job every 18 months is not in the cards. It´s probably more important for me to carefully choose our permanent homestead and be able to commute (requires a good roster). That granted, working in other countries sounds phantastic.

I think I could befriend either machine - had trial lessons in both and found both to be interesting in their own way, both gave me that grin when you finally do something about getting airborne. Helo a little harder to master for sure.

I am not trying to intellectualize the decision, but knowing about the culture of both sectors might just help.

[paco]

From where I sit, there will be many more job choices in the helicopter world in the near future. It is true that the helicopter world is more forgiving in terms of age, etc, but what will really help you is your languages.

I wouldn't necessarily get hung up on instructing - it doesn't pay much and many of my students have got jobs without it, including rig work.

Phil

[hueyracer]

You could be lucky landing a job with one of the big Offshore-operators, getting a touring position-that would keep you away from home 6 month/year only.

Or you move-especially as a low timer, you have to go where the jobs are....and that is not necessarily in Europe...

[Thomas coupling]

I find it difficult to compare offshore to FW commercial in terms of quality of life. Granted, IF you reach the hallowed levels of TRE, then you are earning £100k+ but the alternative in the FW world is far rosier:
FW:
Better and more benign flight conditions.
£100k is not that hard to find in the commercial FW world.
NO freaking goon suit...(This alone would tip me in to the FW world).
Options to fly to different parts of the world and often.

What is attractive about Offshore (IF you could go FW).?:ugh:

Now if you could fly big helo's outside of the offshore world, that would be a more difficult decision to make.....

[pilot and apprentice]

Thomas, don't forget the age. My knowledge of airline ops is Canadian, but entering an airline in one's 40's, when progression is controlled by seniority, nothing more, would mean a long haul as (possibly) FO to retirement.

As I said, I sampled the 'benign flight conditions'. To each his own. I'd rather short sectors, a busy work day, the low-level environment. A good reason for her to do the research and self-reflection to see what she really wants down the road.

DD, I and many of my compatriots live by the phrase "happy wife, happy life". I suggest you think the same way. Pick a home base that the husband and kids will thrive in, and that has at least some job prospects for yourself. If that doesn't work, as long as it is a town with a sizeable airport, commute to work (FW: deadhead, RW: tours).

It's hard now, but don't think about the thrill you get as a prospective student, think about 5 or 10 thousand flying hours down the road. What type of flying will suit your personality?

Good luck

[DoobyDoo]

I am a bit puzzled by the age thing here, because I always thought the RW market was even more competitive, sometimes with a physically demanding work enviroment and thus off limits to many. Totally misinformed? Granted, the type of jobs available look more like blue-collar flying than airline work does, so maybe a no frills/all skills attitude follows along?

Still, do you guys really KNOW people who got hired as 40+ low-timers in decent companies? I have been in contact with 2 people who managed to do so, but they where both FW (Lufthansa CityLine and private bizjet).

[pilot and apprentice]

A good friend of mine got his first RW 'break' at 50. Some age issues but his work ethic and maturity make him a winner as soon as anyone see's him in action.

I have several former students, successful, who did their trg in their late 30's and early 40's. Their previous skills, maturity, and commitment are the attributes they build on.

[Thomas coupling]

Dooby: don't forget also that if you fly single pilot ops commercially, you have to retire at 60 in EASA land. Only twin pilot allows you to carry on for a good few years after that. The added bonus being certain medical ailments allow you to continue flying if it is a twin pilot operation. So when you finally choose which way you want to go, consider this too.
Example: certain cancers, a heart attack or/and some drugs allow for twin pilot employment. None of the above will get you your job back if you are single pilot ops.
Even at aged 40, and assuming the age thing is a bar to flying with the big league, you could still get picked up by the next division down for regional/short haul work. Gives you a base to come home to every night, family life and still a short sleeve cruise drive from city to city instead of a stormy icy bumpy trip out to the rigs and back every day forever! :zzz::zzz:
A no brainer if you ask me.
Can anyone out there give me ONE advantage for flying offshore over short haul FW? Anyone? Same for Corporate helo jobs over FW. (Not knowing if there is a job for you next Monday as the owner of the company gets bored with helicopter transport or the company goes bust.

All of what I have discussed is based purely on AGE at entry.

It's entirely different if joining the industry much much younger....I accept that.

[Adroight]

Can anyone out there give me ONE advantage for flying offshore over short haul FW? Anyone?

I will give you two for the price of one - earning well in excess of £100,000 and having 6 months of the year off...

There are many more opportunities in the RW market - in some very nice parts of the world and offshore is not limited to the North Sea.

[Thomas coupling]

Adroight: I think you'll find only senior captains and then some earn over £100k offshore.
FW commercial is littered with £100k earners, even some FO's earn this much and everyone knows that some carriers only fly their pilots half a dozen times per month.
What you suggested in the offshore world is not common place whereas in FW commercial it is routine.
Additionally, who mentioned N Sea??? I'm talking offshore flying anywhere in the world. It's monotonous, dangerous, uncomfortable. Only the first of these descriptions fits FW commercial flying.
Try again:ok:

[Adroight]

TC - I know from reading your recent posts on another thread that neither I nor anyone else can convince you that your view of the world is not the correct one. However, there is another world - one that most of us live in.

I doubt that you have flown in the civil offshore industry. Many offshore RW pilots earn a very respectable income these days. Of course only senior Captains earn in excess of £100,000 but as far as I am aware one begins any career at the bottom and works upwards - even the FW industry.

You comments about 'goon suits' - which I assume to be survival suits lead me to believe that you are referring to the North Sea offshore market. There are many other parts of the world where white shirts are standard flying offshore. I certainly am not 'uncomfortable' and if my job was 'dangerous' there is no way that I would be doing it. The most monotonous part of my job is everything associated with sitting in a cramped airliner for hours getting to and from my place of work. The thought of doing that as a living fills me with horror.

You conveniently ignore the fact that equal time tours are also the norm for pilots in the offshore industry - 2 and 2, 4 and 4 or 6 and 6. Those weeks off are spent at home or doing what I want to do - normally skiing, diving or sailing and spending my money, which, as I work overseas is also tax-free.

[pilot and apprentice]

TC:Can anyone out there give me ONE advantage for flying offshore over short haul FW?

I thought I already did?

It's monotonous, dangerous, uncomfortable.

You already admitted less monotonous, but yes, it gets old. Every job gets old. Disturbingly, even dodging small arms fire in AFG gets old.

First tier offshore operators have safety records on par with first tier airlines. I have more white-knuckle moments in the back of some of the buses I'm obligated to ride in.

Unless it's a 61 you are stuck in the cockpit, but otherwise much the same. I'd rather the crew houses I've been in to most hotels, excepting the most austere locations.

I don't know the European FW market well, but on the left side of the pond, anyone in less than a first tier airline isn't making the money.

[DoobyDoo]

If you gentlemen would let me do some basic research on this very thread:

I figure that the standard route in RW inludes hour building as an instructor. But how do people get on from there? Seems like the "real jobs" require IR, ME time, turbine time, sometimes TR and hours on type. Is this self paid or how else do people move past that "1100 h in a R22"-level?

Touring sounds adventurous, but seems to be for very experienced folks? Also, is this something people get stuck in? Or is it a good background when applying for a steady base?

Seems like there is a ton of dineros to be saved when going FAA - considering that US hourbuilding is more or less mandatory anyway, is there a point in going FAA > touring position > convert to JAA with a solid amount of hours > apply for European base. As opposed to going JAA / converting BEFORE gaining significant experience. Is this something people do? I get the impression that the kind of post-CPL qualifications you will need for good jobs is considerably more expensive in Europe, so one would think that establishing yourself with FAA would be attractive - especially with a roster that allows you to keep your euro homebase just where it is.

[pilot and apprentice]

Sorry to hijack your thread, inexcusable really.

Again, limited European experience but on more than one occasion in Stavanger I have watched the parade of new FO hopefuls doing interviews, and have been on TR courses with some as well. Their experience wasn't very high (500-1500 hrs, no type rating) and they are getting into a steady NS offshore job.

International touring generally requires the hours to qualify as a captain on the respective contract. Like many industries, there are a lot of dues to be paid in aviation to get to the end game.

Instructing to build time doesn't, for all intents and purposes, exist in Canada. Here it is, my view of a Canadian start:
1. Get a CPL (rarely night or IFR)
2. Get a job, likely A. ground job with hope to fly eventually VFR or B. ground job to copilot IFR (get the IFR while working on ground)
3. As experience builds, decide where your focus will be
4. Get on with a company in your chosen field (offshore, police, firefighting, construction, school, logging, etc)

I hope someone will give you a European perspective

[DoobyDoo]

I just wanted to thank everybody for a great discussion. :)

Gives me a lot of input. 2 weeks ago all I could imagine was one of the Scandinavian TP operators - as the best possible outcome.

I will start with FW PPL no matter what, so still lots of time to just enjoy learnig, see for myself and talk to professionals. But please do keep providing insights and opinions.