Using Ejector Seats Underwater

[Warmtoast]

I was browsing British Pathe's newsreel site and came across this news clip which shows a FAA Scimitar suffering arrester failure on HMS Victorious and rolling off the deck into the sea. Sadly the pilot concerned, Commander J D Russell was drowned, but wonder why he didn't use his ejector seat to get clear?

The clip can be seen here:
NAVAL PILOT KILLED - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/naval-pilot-killed)

[RAFEngO74to09]

More background to the accident here:

1958 | 1- - 0896 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1958/1958-1-%20-%200896.html)

[Andu]

I don't know any details of the system, but the A4 Skyhawk had an underwater eject facility. I knew an RAN A4 driver who suffered a cold cat launch and dribbled into the oggin off the bow of HMAS Melbourne. He said he had to stay in the cockpit as he watched the ship steam over him and then eject.

He said he was ~90' underwater by the time the ship cleared him (and it was getting very, VERY dark) and all the while, he kept thanking God it wasn't USS Enterprise he was waiting to pass over him.

[Milo Minderbinder]

USA instruction video

Stock Footage - Safe underwater ejection from a downed fighter jet. (http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675027023_underwater-escape_underwater-ejection_animation-used_cameraman-recording)




YAK-38 underwater ejection
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6HgskDox-I&feature=related

[SpazSinbad]

'Andu' said: "I don't know any details of the system, but the A4 Skyhawk had an underwater eject facility. I knew an RAN A4 driver who suffered a cold cat launch and dribbled into the oggin off the bow of HMAS Melbourne. He said he had to stay in the cockpit as he watched the ship steam over him and then eject.

He said he was ~90' underwater by the time the ship cleared him (and it was getting very, VERY dark) and all the while, he kept thanking God it wasn't USS Enterprise he was waiting to pass over him."

Not really the full picture concerning the loss of A4G 889 via a cold cat from HMAS Melbourne. There is a video of the accident available - I'll post a link soon. Briefly the pilot (known to me - telling the story with copious arm waving and ejection handle NOT pulling) when he arrived back at NAS Nowra. What he attempted to do was eject but for various reasons (including as the aircraft tipped over the front) the sequence stopped at the canopy phase so only it left the aircraft as he went over the front.

Yes he waited for the props to go past as during the descent (breathing emergency oxygen) the aircraft 889 scraped the side briefly. Anyway once he sensed the screws had past he escaped, used the MaeWest to get to the surface because once he left the cockpit unencumbered there was no more oxygen. The Wessex 'Pedro' Helo rescue aircrewman later commented that he literally popped out of the water. What a great sight for everyone.

On the left side of the Skyhawk cockpit there is a large round insert which is the pressure relief valve to equalise the pressure inside and out when underwater so that the pilot can open the canopy. I don't know of any underwater ejections as such but a search of the internet might find some.

This 8 minute greyscale silent video shows initially Barry entering the cockpit of an A4G and closing the canopy, however it is not 889 of that fateful day. Later during a series of catapults we see his cold cat and rescue for him to be stretchered then allowed to stand and walk.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6&sa=822839791#cid=CBCD63D6340707E6&id=CBCD63D6340707E6%21293

.WMV Video 38Mb "A4G_Ops_Melbourne_8min.wmv"

If youse like loud music the same video is there in same folder 'A4G Skyhawk RAN FAA VIDEOS' with a TOOL soundtrack.

[SpazSinbad]

Poor quality JPG made from poor quality film shows only the canopy being jettison as part of a partial ejection attempt. To learn more download the 50Mb PDF here:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6&sa=822839791#cid=CBCD63D6340707E6&id=CBCD63D6340707E6%21119

A4G_Skyhawk_889_pp87.PDF (49Mb) in 'FAA A-4G Skyhawk RAN PDFs' Folder

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewerAlbum/889canopyJettisonOnlyColdCatMelbourneSMALL.jpg

[TBM-Legend]

Mid Baddams seat worked just fine when he fell off the front of the boat...

[SpazSinbad]

Yep and what another nice chap! :) Youse will find his chair lifting abilities in the PDF about RAN FAA A4G 885 in the same directory you may find the 889 story on SkyDrive. But that is another story. There are only 20 T/A4G stories so it is all easy colour and movement as/if required.

[downsizer]

Didn't OC 1 eject underwater in the late 90s?

[Trim Stab]

YAK-38 underwater ejection

Good show landing back on the deck. His parachute landing roll was poor though - he could have hurt himself landing like that.

[dctyke]

The navy Buccs used to have an underwater system, all the seat componants activated bar the main gun explosive carts. Compressed gasses were used instead to extend the tubes to push the seat up the rails in slow motion compared to normal ejection. Just enough to get the aircrew out of the cockpit and released from the seat. Later RAF ac ejection guns still had the fitting for the gas pipe which was blancked off.

[alwayslookingup]

I seem to remember the last time the vid in Post 1 appeared on PPrune it was pulled pdq, bad taste.

[ARRAKIS]

I remember reading a story about a Westland Wyvern from HMS Albion, ditching after a flameout during catapulting. The pilot successfully ejected from under water. Mid 50s.

Arrakis

[SpazSinbad]

For 'ARRAKIS': What an excellent book of tales it is too....

pp.55–57 ‘FLY NAVY — The View from the Cockpit, 1945–2000’
edited by Lcdr Charles K. Manning AFC, RN

Published on behalf of the Fleet Air Arm Officers’ Association

Commander Mike Crosley DSC*, Test Pilot, Commanding Officer 813 Squadron, HMS Albion and Eagle, 1954 Commanding Officer Naval Test Squadron, Boscombe Down, 1960–63

"...‘The next instant I hit the sea at about 70 knots, wheels down, of course, and flaps in the take-off position. I knew that the Wyvern had very poor ditching characteristics and I had in fact witnessed a fatal ditching about 18 months ago when the Wyvern had entered the sea and disappeared immediately without any hesitation at all before sinking.

‘This memory flashed through my mind just before hitting the sea and I felt that I had no chance of escape. The impact with the sea stunned me to some extent.

‘When I had collected my wits again I was under water and it was getting darker. My nervous system seemed to have disconnected my body from my brain — except for my left hand. The yellow ‘Emergency Canopy jettison’ knob filled my whole vision. I was grateful for its colour and position. I hit it with my left hand and the canopy became unlocked and green water poured in all around its edges. I did not notice the canopy actually go and it may have been more or less in position when I ejected. I pulled the ejector seat ‘blind’ handle with my left hand immediately after hitting the hood jettison lever.

‘Tears on my flying overall and on my Mae West could have been caused by the ejection up through the canopy. I was wearing a crash helmet (bone dome) and the actual jettison seemed identical to the practice we had on the test rig. I then pulled the firing handle once more to fire the seat. I blacked out immediately and the next awareness was of being out of the aircraft. Ejection did not bring me out on the surface — from a position when I fired the seat perhaps 20 feet under and with the cockpit at about 30 degrees nose down....

...For the first time I had a desperate need for air; I tried to swim upward. I suddenly remembered my Mae West and I pulled the toggle to inflate it. I popped up like a cork, into the sunshine. I surfaced astern and to port, about 200 yards from the ship. The helicopter with the strop lowered was already there waiting for me.

‘My overall conviction from this was that but for the ejector seat I would never have got out of the aircraft as the water pressure would have held the canopy on and I could not have lifted it. My experience on the ‘practice’ ejector seat rig was much appreciated...."

[air pig]

wasn't the McFarlane incident the same, off the end of the deck, sank and pulling the seat activation, the seat due to barostats, popped the canopy and inflated the life-jacket.

[david parry]

There is a good book called "Bit of a Tiff "which tells of the ejections of Lyn Middleton from Hms Eagle in 1956 from 2 Seahawks 897/899 squadrons the first being underwater as the ship passed over him the seconed one being dunked in the sea when the cat broke on launch;) PS to D buccaneers only had underwater ejection fitted to aircraft from 65 onwards!!!!!!

[walbut]

dctyke,
The Buccaneer underwater escape system was developed using dead sheep as test subjects. The test reports used to be recommended reading for any new members of Flight Systems Department at Brough. Unfortunately all the Buccaneer and Phantom files have now been disposed of so we can no longer while away a few minutes reading about aviation history.
Walbut

[Milo Minderbinder]

another "howto" training film, this time showing closeups of a test underwater ejection

Stock Footage - A pilot ejects from a test jet that has been plunged into water. (http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675027019_underwater-escape_disconnect-from-cockpit_ascend-to-surface_test-the-method)

[Fishtailed]

I seem to remember the last time the vid in Post 1 appeared on PPRuNe it was
pulled pdq, bad taste


Must admit when I watched that I thought it not good viewing.

[MSOCS]

During a dark-night recovery to the CVN IN the late 1990's, OC 1(F) Sqn found himself in the oggin; ejecting submerged and pretty much inverted.

[jimgriff]

Here is a link to the official document regarding the bucc system.
underwater ejection (http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/underwater_ejection.htm)

[reynoldsno1]

It may be a fishy story, but istr being told about a Sea Vixen pilot who ejected underwater on two separate occasions....

[FODPlod]

These pages from the Winter 1965 issue of the Royal Naval Diving Magazine may be of interest to some:Underwater Escape from Aircraft - Trials at Glen Fruin (I)
(http://www.mcdoa.org.uk/images/Underwater_Escape_from_Aircraft_Trials_Glen_Fruin_1965%20_a. jpg)
Underwater Escape from Aircraft - Trials at Glen Fruin (II) (http://www.mcdoa.org.uk/images/Underwater_Escape_from_Aircraft_Trials_Glen_Fruin_1965%20_b. jpg)

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks for the informative links 'jimgriff' and 'FODPlod'.

[Dengue_Dude]

Bearing in mind, if you're going to die anyway, you might as well eject.

But if you consider, there's a possibility the cockpit is not yet full of water, so the differential pressure across the canopy when the MDC goes could cause all sorts of out of spec pressures.

Also, the resistance of the water when the seat pan handle is pulled (face blind would have resulted in a better posture) would tend to bend the pilot forward, drag being so much worse in water.

We recently did some research on this topic, with MB advice, and the upshot is that ejection before entry to the water is always the best option. But why would you stay - voluntarily?

The risk of death, set against the certainty of death make it no contest.

[lsh]

Once visited a German Colonel who had a large aviation book collection.
In one book there was an F104 tipped nose first into a lake or ditch, with only the tail showing.
He told me that the pilot had ejected under the water and broke his back (or neck?) but survived.
With the way the canopy opened, I guess he had no other choices!
I believe the cockpit was filling with water.

I am sure someone knows the full story?

lsh
:E

[Madbob]

lsh

Could it have been 19th Sept 1967 at Korfu AB, Greece?

According to the ejection history website www.ejection-history.org.uk (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk) it was a Luftwaffe F-104G of Jabo G33 which overshot runway on landing and ended up in the sea. Pilot ejected under water, and although badly injured survived.

MB

[Gemini Twin]

Remember the Wyvern off the Albion in '54. I recall he was not only underwater but also under the boat!

[SpazSinbad]

'Gemini Twin' this middle section (and a lot more) was left out of the post quotes on previous page:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/507952-using-ejector-seats-underwater.html#post7694566

"...‘I learnt later that the ship had cut the fuselage in two — the tail and a collapsed fuselage tank had been seen to pass down the ship’s starboard side. I assume I was out before the ship hit the aircraft. I was not aware of any collision with the ship. As soon as I collected my wits again after the ejection I became aware of being tumbled over violently in light green sea and becoming entangled in the seat and its yellow drogue chute. I had choked in quite a lot of water by this time and the prospect of drowning was no longer unpleasant — just like drinking fresh water.

‘Eventually the tumbling eased and I thought I was going to live, and then, with the most bitter disappointment, I began to be dragged slowly down, deeper and deeper. I must have reached an advanced state of drowning as I was dreamy, relaxed, comfortable, but in a sad state, slowly ‘floating’ deeper. I had given up the struggle.

‘Suddenly the tangle freed itself, a spark of life reached my brain — but the dinghy lanyard (fastening the dinghy to the Mae West) was still pulling me down. I followed my hand down and pulled the release and after two attempts it came adrift and I began rising...."

[SpazSinbad]

On previous page this valve was mentioned here:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/507952-using-ejector-seats-underwater.html#post7694090

Info from A4G (A-4E/F/G) NATOPS about A4G Canopy Jettison Relief Valve

Click thumbnail: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewerAlbum/th_A-4underwaterCanopyJettisonReliefValveNATOPSdiagram.jpg (http://s98.beta.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewerAlbum/A-4underwaterCanopyJettisonReliefValveNATOPSdiagram.jpg.html)