RVR 800m ... Can you request a visual approach

[gibr monkey]

Hello Guys,

So there is low lying fog around the sky is completly clear. The RVR is reported as 800m. You can see the runway lights and all the runway at 10nm out, fine. the fog is just sitting over the RVR measuring devices. Your ILS RVR minima is 1000m so this constitutes a approach ban from the ILS.
Reading EU-OP 1.435 you can have a visual approach with 800m as long as you are in sight of the surface.
Can anybody clarify this at all?

[Dufo]

From real life experience with fog patches, it is possible to have the runway in sight and land completely in visual conditions even with reported rvr in strange values.
I personally did it a couple of times, but not in UK (might be different set of rules there).
Of course there is always a possibility of go around if visual contact is lost.

Controllers should know this better than us, we drivers tend to try and do all the stupidities :E

[Feather #3]

Ever been into Bombay at night?:)

G'day ;)

[Check Airman]

In the US airline world, the reported visibility is controlling, so the answer would be no.

[aviatorhi]

Well, a runway in the US which is serviced by an RVR system will usually have landing minimums as low as RVR18 or RVR24 (RVR800m = RVR2600ft if I remember correctly). Taking that into account you are legal to start the approach and fly an ILS to that runway for the landing. Furthermore, having the runway lights in sight you're legal to 100 feet above touchdown, and from then on, having the runway itself in sight you are legal to land. So I don't see this as an issue at the typical runway serviced by an RVR system in the US. Furthermore, controllers will be simply report prevailing visibility and not pass on RVR information when it is erroneous (given the circumstances).

[Andy Mayes]

From a UK ATC point of view, yes you can, RVR 800m is the cut off for Visual Approaches.

ATC will not approve a Visual Approach when the RVR is less than 800m, if the pilot did request so then ATC should inform the pilot that this type of approach is unavailable and request the pilot's intentions.

I have often had pilots cancel IFR and go VFR to 'cut the corner'.

[bubbers44]

On over 600 approaches into TGU, Honduras I have spent hours holding over the airport waiting for them to call 5KM visibility to be able to land legally. Yes, you could see the airport but you could not land. Maybe other countries have different rules. No other airliners landed when I was holding.

[Roger Greendeck]

Rules vary from country to country but in Australia you can ask for an be clear for a visual approach. It would have to be a very localised bit of fog though because you need to be able to maintain 5km vis throughout the approach.

[gibr monkey]

Thank you for your replies guys. Just to clarify its EU ops i was thinking of and SO it seems I can declare a visual if the cloud base is above top of drop on the ILS and in contact with the ground and I can see the runway when the reported RVR is 800m or above even though the RVR limit for the ILS approach is 1500m. This thought could save a lot of fuel burnt needlessly in the hold waiting.

Does anybody have the EU-ops reference. Andy ?

Thanks again.

[Spitoon]

Controllers should know this better than us, we drivers tend to try and do all the stupiditiesNot generally an ATC thing - we try and accommodate a pilot's requests but whether the pilot has the right/authority/whatever to make the request is down to him or her.

But many moons ago when I was new to this business I did a stint ad Edinburgh where the transmissometers for the main runway sit between the runway and a little stream - or burn as they call them up there.

It was quite common, especially on lovely gin-clear nights, for shallow fog to form over the stream and then drift slightly or flow until it covered one or more of the transmissometers. Result - everyone can see for miles but RVR in the low hundreds.

At that time the rules had recently been changed and prevented visual approaches on another runway - can't recall if it was ATC rules or flight ops rules that changed - but it was a sore point for many of the Trident pilots that ended up holding or diverting when everywhere around was crystal clear.

OTOH, I have also seen the real effects of shallow fog and slant visibility from my perch high up in the tower and the resulting, rather scary go-around.

Don't know what the current situation is with JAR/EU-OPS, I'm afraid.

[scotbill]

Many moons ago held over Belfast in gin clear conditions waiting for ILS Cat I RVR on 25.
Eventually asked for 07 RVR - which was in excess of the 600 metres we required. Visual approach was no problem until about 50 feet when it became obvious that the RVR was indeed not more than about 600 metres.

Provided you are used to CAT 1 conditions and resist the urge to stuff the nose down at the last minute to make the visual segment look correct there is no real problem.

In fact it was good to be able to point out to the pax that I hadn't been telling porkies about fog up at 6000' (where the viz was about 50 miles).

[autoflight]

The resulting rather scary go-around is best observed from the flight deck.

[Check Airman]

From a UK ATC point of view, yes you can, RVR 800m is the cut off for Visual Approaches.

Confirm you can do a visual approach with 800m (~.5sm) visibility? That certainly is unexpected.

Here in the US, we need at least 3sm for a visual approach. A pilot can request a "contact approach" with at least 1sm visibility, although it is generally prohibited in airline (part 121) operations.

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

I guess this regulation specifically addresses the case of shallow fog - where the in-flight visibility is unlimited, but the soup starts below 100'. Still, the basic requirement for commencing a visual app is to be able to see the runway throughout the maneouvre. The RVR800 rule is a restriction to ensure adeqate visual reference during landing.

[FullWings]

EU-OPS 1.465 (g)

"Visual Approach. An operator shall not use an RVR of less than 800 m for a visual approach."

[Mir]

Stuck_in_an_ATR :

Still, the basic requirement for commencing a visual app is to be able to see the runway throughout the maneouvre.


Are you 100% sure about this? I have never been able to find the runway requirement anywhere, and EU-OPS defines a visual approach as :

Visual approach. An approach when either part or all of an instrument approach procedure is not completed and the
approach is executed with visual reference to the terrain.

So in theory I would think you could do a visual approach in 800m, if you are very, very familiar with the terrain around the airport (Not something I would ever do though :) )

[scotbill]

The resulting rather scary go-around is best observed from the flight deck. Perhaps my original post did not make clear that we had a routine arrival. My company permitted VFR approaches with RVR of 600m in those days.

So in theory I would think you could do a visual approach in 800m, if you are very, very familiar with the terrain around the airport (Not something I would ever do though http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif ) We are discussing the shallow fog case where the terrain is not a problem. My post also postulated some familiarity with Cat I (at least) ops.

On the other hand, I do remember going around at Cat 1 DH of 200' at Jersey in bright sunshine. We hadn't entered the fog yet.

[letMfly]

From a UK ATC point of view, yes you can, RVR 800m is the cut off for Visual Approaches.

ATC will not approve a Visual Approach when the RVR is less than 800m, if the pilot did request so then ATC should inform the pilot that this type of approach is unavailable and request the pilot's intentions.

I have often had pilots cancel IFR and go VFR to 'cut the corner'.

I think you are referring to the UK "absolute minima" which was abolished fairly recently, where a pilot would be reminded of the absolute minima for the approach and warned that he would be reported if he continued the approach, if the visibility was below the absolute minima.

Interestingly I was clearing VFR traffic to land in 175m IRVR a few weeks ago. There was extensive low level radiation fog to the East of the runway which covered the forward scatter meters (IRVR sensors), but the runway itself was out of the fog. First time I have seen these conditions in almost forty years of controlling!

[cosmo kramer]

Mir has it right. Most airlines will write the "runway in sight" into the ops manuals. But this is not an EU Ops requirement.

For smaller aircraft, like SEP, there would be no problem to request a visual in 800 meter RVR and flight visibility, when you see "the factory with the chimney and the highway besides that leads to the airport".

Also, EU-Ops doesn't specify which part of the approach you conduct visually. That means, you can request a visual to shorten your initial approach (avoid flying a full procedure in mountainous terrain), and complete the approach using the e.g. the ILS - that is if your airline allows you to request visual without the runway in sight.