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Flyaways
9th Feb 2013, 10:46
I have a conditional offer for the following two courses from Uni:

Aerospace Technology BSc with Pilot Studies
Aerospace Technology BSc with Management

First off, I want to explain the BSc bit- To get on the BEng course, you need an A-Level in Physics & Maths. I didn't do these subject so I can't get onto it. I have been advised that if I can get over 75% in the mathematics module in the first year, I can move to the equivalent BEng course.

Now to my main question. I don't know whether to choose the with Pilot Studies or With Management degree. There is little difference in the two courses- One contains a ground school module & flying lessons, and the other contains a project management & finance module.

The flying lessons are not included in the cost of the course- you pay for them separately and they are given at a discounted rate by the flying school.

I was wondering if anyone has done one of these degrees or if anyone knows which is more useful?
(I would be looking to do aerospace engineering as a career, but I'd love to be a flying instructor part time too)

The90sAME
9th Feb 2013, 18:14
If you want to be a licensed engineer. Dont go to uni. It'll only help if you want to get into management sooner.

Get your modules done and get applying to airlines.

This topic might also answer some questions.

http://www.pprune.org/engineers-technicians/507202-how-can-beng-graduates-become-b1-licensed-maintenance-engineers.html


If you need to know anything about the process, drop me a message. I was in your situation a couple of years ago, I left college after doing a Diploma in Aerospace Engineering & NVQ Level 2 in Performing Engineering Operations, and ended up at the fork in the road.
"Do I go to Uni, or do I do my modules / get into an apprenticeship"

Someone within TCX who had close links with our college warned me off uni and to go the other route. Don't look back at the choice I made. In 9 Months i'll be applying for my A1 license, then starting to work on getting my B1.

But as I said, it all depends on where you see yourself within engineering.

Pilotage
9th Feb 2013, 19:40
If your interest is an either/or of aerospace engineering or professional flying, then I think you want a BEng + pilot studies combination. If this gives you a route to that, shoot for it - if you're not absolutely clear that it will, then go somewhere else (Brunel runs a good course for example) that has a foundation year entry route.

As you don't seem to have a deep interest in management (and frankly, I can't blame you), so I wouldn't bother with that course - study management if that's what fascinates you, but if it doesn't, study aeroplanes. Switching into management is done by many of us once we know enough stuff to manage, and by and large the best managers also did a non-management job first.

P

Flyaways
9th Feb 2013, 21:31
That's the difficulty, I would want to progress into a management position at some point. I'm currently doing a business diploma.

Pilotage
9th Feb 2013, 22:01
Most managers in our industry don't have management qualifications; if you reach the right level, there are generally in-house management skill training schemes.

Most managers in our industry have however at some point been quite good at a "real" job, whether that's engineering, flying, ATC...

A management qualification will do you no harm, but in the short term, little good either.

On the other hand, whoever told you to drop maths and take management is an idiot - never take their advice again, and go back to the maths. And physics.

Maths and physics make aeroplanes work, management is a nice to have. Many might dispute "nice" and substitute "necessary evil"; either way the route into aviation management is via aviation.

P

The90sAME
9th Feb 2013, 23:20
Alot of our managers have no management qualification. They've all worked their way up, and know the system in and out.

Our Director of engineering started out as an apprentice.


Working your way up from the bottom can be better in most cases than a Uni qualification in aircraft maintenance.

In my opinion, scrap uni, do your modules and work your way up, its not like it'll take years to get into management, ive worked under management who are in their early 30s who started at the bottom.

Your time in Uni will only delay you by, what, 3-4 years? and wont give you an advantage in this trade. Someone who has that time on the tools has as much chance as you, at getting a managerial role within aircraft maintenance. Hes been there, lived it, knows the rules and reg's

Some jobs its different, qualifications speak louder than experience, but personally, aircraft maintenance isn't one of them, experience speaks louder than qualifications.

Get a B license, get some aircraft types on it, get that done before you hit 30 and you're laughing, the going rate in some airlines for a B1 engineer with 3 or more type ratings is between £45-55K per year.

Pilotage
10th Feb 2013, 07:07
In my opinion, scrap uni, do your modules and work your way up, its not like it'll take years to get into management, ive worked under management who are in their early 30s who started at the bottom.

IF he wants to do maintenance engineering, rather than aerospace/design/analytical engineering, your advice is right.

P

The90sAME
10th Feb 2013, 10:37
IF he wants to do maintenance engineering, rather than aerospace/design/analytical engineering, your advice is right.

P

Totally agree, 100%.

Keep this in mind Flyaways, depends what side of it you want to get into.

Flyaways
10th Feb 2013, 11:12
IF he wants to do maintenance engineering, rather than aerospace/design/analytical engineering, your advice is right.


I was thinking more of going down the design route.

I'm not entirely sure of the different routes available, but I would prefer to go down the design side of business/ passenger jets or light aircraft. :)

The90sAME
10th Feb 2013, 11:30
If that's the case, go uni, but which course to take is down to you.
I cant help on that one.

Pilotage
10th Feb 2013, 14:34
I was thinking more of going down the design route.

I'm not entirely sure of the different routes available, but I would prefer to go down the design side of business/ passenger jets or light aircraft. :)

In which case you want an RAeS accredited MEng in aerospace / aviation / aeronautical engineering from a good university (really, don't worry about the differences in titles, do look at the detailed content of each course). And, in my opinion, at-least a PPL to have enough operational knowledge to be any good in a senior design role, particularly in light aircraft. "Pilot studies" degrees give you a way to do the two at the same time, but that isn't essential - you can do a PPL in many places and at any time.

A good BEng followed by a very good MSc is a viable alternative, but in aircraft design Cranfield is probably the only MSc in the UK I'd rate.

Which means you need A-level maths and physics, with good grades - or equivalent qualifications.

It's possible to do a foundation year instead of the A-levels, but I'd not recommend it. A school or 6th form college will deliver that teaching better and cheaper, then go straight onto a good university with the right A levels and enter the 1st year, rather than the foundation "year zero".

Management subjects, in my opinion, are much better studied later when you know stuff you can manage.

The courses you've already mentioned sound like Leeds - which is not highly rated in aeronautical engineering. You'd be better looking at Southampton, Loughborough, Brunel, Imperial, Salford, Manchester, Glasgow: all of which have much more robust courses. Coventry *may* be another option, who are busy raising their game at the moment, similarly UWE.

P

Flyaways
10th Feb 2013, 16:09
I'm going to start at BSc level, but I can move up to BEng after the first year (Providing I get a good mark). Then on the BEng you have an option to move to MEng on the third year.

All courses have the following accreditation:

Accredited for Chartered Engineer (IEng) status by the Royal Aeronautical Society (RAeS), the Institution of Mechanical Engineers (IMechE) and the Institution of Engineering and Technology (IET).

I have just realised that the BEng and MEng options are not available 'with Management', but their is the option for 'with pilot studies'.

Pilotage
10th Feb 2013, 16:41
You need an MSc to get CEng if you only have a BEng; MEng will jump straight there and has substantial management content - mostly in the final year. But, if you have a strong interest in aircraft design, BEng + the Cranfield MSc would be a good option, and possibly better than MEng.

75% in 1st year u/g maths won't be easy, and a lot of prior private study would be a good idea. This is the book most universities use:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engineering-Mathematics-K-Stroud/dp/1403942463

If you get in, a summer spent on your maths and physics would be well spent, because starting from only GCSE level, you'll find it very hard going at University. (People with A level maths will find it very hard going!)

P

Flyaways
10th Feb 2013, 18:27
Thanks. I'm a pretty academic person so I think I would be able to do it. I'm happy to put the extra work in :O

So what you're saying is to do the BEng at least, then I can choose whether to go onto the MEng or go for the MSc? Sounds like a good idea.

Pilotage
10th Feb 2013, 19:19
Yes.

Most universities, regardless of what you're registered for, will normally give the option at the end of the 2nd year.

Depending upon mean grades of-course. Typically a B-average with no failed modules gives you the choice, a C average means you'll be graduating with a BEng regardless, as usually do any failed core modules.

P