FAA flight training 1960s question..

[CatchThePigeon]

What would be the expected aircraft types flown by prospective Fleet Air Arm pilots around, say 1965 or so? Ab initio in Chipmunks I would guess, and advanced/basic jet training in Vampires.. but how was e.g. deck landing training handled? Did the Vampire have a hook? Or was it just a case of read the notes, hop in the Sea Vixen/Buccaneer and do your best not to kill yourself or anyone else?

[Schiller]

In the early 60's the Chipmunk was used for initial flight grading and for basic training for potential helo crews. For FJ pilots, we started with the Jet Provost (Mks 3 & 4) Advanced flying training on the Vampire T11, replaced in about 1963 by the Hunter T8. For Operational flight training it was the Hunter T8 and GA11.

Deck Landing. Lots and lots of MADDL's (Mirror Assisted Dummy Deck Landings) towards the end of your type training course; sometimes (if the weather wasn't too bad) observed by the squadron QFI. Some time thereafter, either when you'd reached your first front-line squadron or, if you were lucky, earlier if a carrier was available during your training, you would have a massive brief and then go off and just do it - DLP's first (Deck Landing Practice - ie rollers) and then your first hook-on. If you were very lucky, you might be given a look at the deck first in a Hunter, doing approaches to a low overshoot.

[CatchThePigeon]

Thanks very much for that - so the MADDLS were basically approaches to a normal runway but with the guidance of mirror and LSO plus no flare at the end?
I can imagine the first approach to a pitching deck must have been a bit sweaty, even after all that..

[Milo Minderbinder]

were any of the "hooked" Hunters ever actually used for real deck landings?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I worked with an ex-Sea Vixen Observer. A quarter of his type conversion course died during the course.

[XV277]

were any of the "hooked" Hunters ever actually used for real deck landings?

I doubt the hook or the airframe/undercarraige would have been strong enough.

[BEagle]

Up until 1966, Britannia flight at Roborough was still using the venerable Tiger Moth for BRNC air experience flying.

Those 'Vixen stats are sobering, although about 50 years ago I was told that the accident rate was worse than the German F-104G accident rate....:uhoh:

[Lordflasheart]

A few notes to the aforegoing.

There was no routine facility for real deck landing prior to your "front-line" type or squadron - unlike the USN where I think CARQUAL may still be a part of advanced flying training.

Occasional demo approaches to wave-off were conducted in the 2 seat Hunter as Schiller says, but the Hunter's hook was solely for emergency use ashore, to prevent over-runs, by engaging the chain or spray arrester wires at the end of the R/W, in the same manner as the Air Force emergency barrier (when raised) but less damaging. IIRC the Hunter speed limit for wire engagement was about 75 kts – but you had to remember to drop the hook before going off the end.

For MADDLS – you may have had a QFI or other critical eye standing by the Mirror, but never an LSO in the sense that I think CTP implied.

Before you were officially "Qualified to Deck Land" or "Qualified to Night Deck Land" iaw APN 76 it was unlikely you would be offered a pitching deck. Certainly not if the ship was operating with "No diversion" and you were not yet "qualified."

I believe BRNC took their Tiger Moths to a passing Carrier (the Ark ??) for lunch one quiet summer in the 60s. Probably one of Lin Middleton's wheezes, and the ship probably had to go astern to get the wind under control. LFH

[Wander00]

I recall the RN guys on 360 (mid 60s) talking about the FAA attrition rate - every week it seemd one of their oppos bought the farm. Home movies filmed from goofers seemed to have a crash per reel!

[CatchThePigeon]

Thanks all for your replies, another forumite kindly sent me a spreadsheet of a sea vixen pilot's logbook from 65 onwards for which I am very grateful.

I can understand that one would be introduced to actual deck landing gradually rather than thrown in with a night landing in a Biscay storm straight away ;-)

But that 25% attrition rate is beyond sobering. Presumably this was all stages of training up to being "carrier qualified" but were the majority of the losses down to carrier operations? Or some quirk of the Sea Vixen? Hats off to those young men, anyway.

Another trivia question - but what was the typical airgroup for Victorious, Hermes and Eagle when operating the Sea Vixen? I have found some quite wildly differing numbers on the internet.

[Courtney Mil]

The Vixen Song springs to mind, Wander00.

[airborne_artist]

I worked with an ex-Sea Vixen Observer. A quarter of his type conversion course died during the course.

The coal-hole (Obs seat) was a horrible place at the best of times, I'm told.

While at BRNC I stepped out with the daughter of a Sea Vixen Observer who was killed when she was about 18 months old. Her mother heard that her daughter was sweet on a prospective aviator and told her to stop seeing me forthwith.

She married another (seaman) officer in Dark Blue who rose to Flag rank - her mother was right all along ;)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

IIRC, the three crew lost were one after a cat launch (soft launch I think), one into the sea short on a night carrier landing, and the last one was lost on a nightex over the ocean - cause unknown, no trace ever found.

[david parry]

CTP......Having served on the Vic and Hermes the CAG would be 12 Sea Vixens 12 Buccaneers 6 Gannets and 12 Wessexs and SAR roughly ,not forgetting the most important aircraft onboard the COD Gannet .Before the introduction of the Buccaneer , they had Scimitars instead, only the Eagle had Buccaneers and Scimitars of 800 sqdn and 800b sqdn;)

[david parry]

Quote ..The General Public should address a long since neglected fact that that few people have heard of the Sea Vixen that was a front line Carrier Borne Fighter Aircraft with the Royal Navy from 1959/1972. It was a mean looking, noisy machine that filled onlookers with awe. There were 55 Accidents involving loss of Airframe. Out of these 55 accidents 30 were fatal. In 21 of the fatal accidents both operating Aircrew were lost. The loss of 51 Royal Navy Aircrew lives in peace time was enormous.

[gpugh]

Hi out of interest my father was the CO of 759 Hunter squadron 1963 to 1966 and the Naval Flying Grading Examiner at Roborough on the Chipmunks 1966 to 1970, I think in between those two, students went to the RAF on JP's ?, from the Hunter training Squadrons at Brawdy they went straight to their front line squadrons, at the time Sea Vixen, Buccaneers, Gannets. As already stated the hook was only ever used on the runway after fairly frequent brake failures, which caused no damage to the aircraft, father remembers the RAF using the Hunters at for the same training but they relied on the barrier which caused more damage. As an aside he wrote the training manuals for the Hunter which the RAF also used, he still has a copy in his study.


Gordon

[gpugh]

I expect that everyone has seen this link with some airshow movies

Sea Vixen. Royal Navy. Carrier Jet. - Sea Vixen Display Teams > "Simons Sircus" (http://www.seavixen.org/index.cfm?fa=contentGeneric.cwlaojpovqekkrmt&pageId=91425)#