View Full Version : To get ME TR UK/JAA etc. Vey dull, but I need to know
18th Jul 2001, 18:55
I currently hold a UK CPL, but the only type ratings that I have are PA28 series, and C150/152/172 series, all long since lapsed. Lets face it, if you don’t use them, why do the checks.
Now, if I want to put a ME type on my licence, how do I go about doing this? Do I need to do so? Furthermore, once I get the IR back, I’ll convert over to a JAA licence. Is it desirable that I put the ME on my UK licence or do it after I get the JAA licence? I took Perf A in the days that it covered you for all types, and I have if from Gatwick that I will not need to do it again.
I know that I can phone to get the answers, but I thought I’d put it to the floor first.
19th Jul 2001, 00:52
No-one talking today? The only types that you need to have now are SEP or MEP - which are actually class ratings. These cover you for any single-pilot aeroplanes. To renew (as opposed to re-validate) you'll need to do a proficiency check with an examiner. Type ratings are still required for multi-pilot aeroplanes (737 / 767 etc.) As for Perf A, it's a one-off exam with no validity period.
Hope that helps.
19th Jul 2001, 10:05
Thanks for that.
But, I've never had a MEP type on my commercial licence, just SEP, but I did have an old style 'B' rating on my PPL as it was then known. I know I can get this back by doing a few hours and doing a test, and I'm about to do this as part of my IR. Will this then give me the MEP on my commercial licence? If that's the case, I presume they have done away with the old style 1179's.
19th Jul 2001, 11:24
To add a MEP Class Rating to a licence, you need to do the appropriate training and MEP Class Rating Skill Test. Pay the CAA the relevant fee and the Rating will be added to whatever licence you hold.
Have you been on Mars over the last few years? I am rather surprised that the whole JAR/FCL process seems to have passed by a 'professional' pilot's attention.
If you look at the AICs which are now freely available on the Web, you will find most of the answers to your questions. And yes - 1179s went out a while ago!
19th Jul 2001, 11:39
Thanks for that. Don't jump down my throat for being out of it.
I'm not about to give you my life's story, but suffice to say I got a CPL nearly 10 years ago, did nothing with it, but deceided on a career change about a year ago, hence I'm currently in the process of revalidating.
Being in Mars, well no, but due to bringing up a family (my choice), I'd put flying on hold, meanwhile your's truely at Gatwick where busy changing the song sheet. Lets face it, changing all the rules and regs, notifying all concerned via AIC (on request only) or WWW has to be the c**piest comminication policy of any outfit the world over.
Sure, as I said in the outset, I could ask them, but as this is a great forum etc etc.
Thanks again for the reply.
19th Jul 2001, 13:23
I would combine your initial MEP in with
the IR revalidation if I were you to save
cash - you will have to do the flight
test with a different QFI unfortunately
I assume that when you originally did your IR - that is now lapsed - you did not get the ME type issued on your licence ?....
19th Jul 2001, 13:28
No I did not, because I did not have the perf groups (I think it was C from memory) to do that as the goal post had moved, and my Perf A was only valid for Perf A a/c. Good to see this has swung round a full circle.
The t/r I have I put on with Perf A just before the rules changed.
I suspect a call to Gatwick may be required.
19th Jul 2001, 16:45
Polar-stereo' - sorry for being rather terse. It's just that I'm constantly getting people asking what the 'new' requirements are - even some FIs and some working ATPL(A) holders don't seem to know!
I guess that if you've been 'resting' (as the luvvies would say) from aviation, the jolly joys of JARs will indeed seem to be confusing! Best of luck with the MEP renewal and IR revalidation!
Addendum: If your IR has lapsed by more than 5 years, but less than 10 years, it will be revalidated through CAA Personnel Licensing Department by IR Renewal with a Staff FE. However, for your MEP Class Rating Skill Test, you can elect to do section 3B to revalidate your IR and align it to your next revalidation proficiency check.
Thus it would seem possible for you to request that the Staff FE conducts both your Multi-Engine (Piston) Class Rating Skill Test AND your Instrument Rating revalidation on the same flight.
However, if your IR has lapsed by more than 10 years, you will have to fly another initial IR Skill Test.
Hope this helps - and apologies again for being rude.
[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
19th Jul 2001, 17:18
BEagle tends to get a lot of out of touch pilots. I try to knobble them before they get to him, but alas we still get folks asking for a 13 month stamp in the logbook!! And yes I do know that you can ask for a 13 month stamp in your logbook for SLMG.
Really it is the regulations that are at fault as the pilot community has great problems at understanding them and that includes some FIs!! Regulations are like taxes. They should be easy to understand. But I can't see JARFCL1 going the way of the poll tax alas!!
But I digress. For you the PPL B would have automatically converted to an MEP when you renewed your multi ticket. Now the CAA allow you to renew your MEP with your IR. This is cost effective and you should consider this. If your PPL B is less than five years out of date then I believe it is up to the CFI of your FTO to decide what you need to do.
It is still really the best approach to talk to your FTO if you are outside the five years. They can then talk to the CAA and come up with a training requirement tied in with your IR. ie. saving you cash!!
It is a lot of cash and you do need to do it to get a shot in the commercial world.
[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: Vigilant Driver ]
19th Jul 2001, 17:57
I'm buzzing now. That was an excelent pair of replies from you both, and I'm sorry if I bit back. Probably too early in the day when I wrote it.
Now tell me something that I don't understand. I'm out by about 6 years, whats the difference between a staff examiner and an IR initial skills test? I am under the impression that I'd need re do the test with a 'Staff Examiner', but is that not the same as what CAAFU used to be?
I've just looked up the correspondence for the CAA, and they say I need to do an innitial IR skills test with a staff examiner. Where did this 5-10 year thing come from?
And I'm realy grateful to anyone who has answers to these questions.
[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]
19th Jul 2001, 23:17
One point that nobody has taken up, you say you will convert to a JAA licence! WHY? if you do, you will stand to lose any ATPL exam credits you may have. Stick with the CAA CPL/IR as long as you can, you can renew it for as long as you like.
If you don't have any ATPL credits then you will not be able to do a Multi-Pilot Type rating, that is another change that has occurred in the last 10 years.
20th Jul 2001, 00:21
Polar_stereo' - the 5-10 years reference comes from Notes 4-6 of Table 4B on page 15 of Version 2 of the CAA Flight Examiners' Handbook dated 31 Jan 2001 under the topic of IR revalidation.
'Staff' FEs are probably what you used to know as 'Panel Examiners'. They are listed on page vi of the FEs' Handbook.
I forgot that you already had what used to be called a 'Group B' rating; hence to renew it in order to be granted what is now known as a MEP Rating, if it has lapsed by more than 5 years, CAA flight crew licensing (or rather PLD as they're now known) 'may direct refresher trainingto be conducted prior to a Renewal test flight'. This time it's Table 6B on page 17 of the CAA Flight Examiners' Handbook which refers under the topic of 'SPA Type/Class Proficiency Check (LPC SPA)'.
Insist that whoever it is with whom you are discussing your requirements at the Belgrano is fully conversant with these requirements as stated by the Chief Flight Examiner in his FE's Handbook!
20th Jul 2001, 00:58
Well, I'm glad that that is cleared up!
Genuinely, you guys have my complete admiration. I haven't understood a word.
20th Jul 2001, 09:52
That's facinating. My old B rating is within the 5 years.
Re the IR, what's *VERY* interesting about this is that I had a protracted correspondence from Gatwick to try and get let off redoing the IR, and I proposed to them that I'd retrain and retest. At no point did anyone mention this 5-10 year thing, that I guess at the very least would save me the CAA test fees, but then again, I never got any feeling that they where trying to help with this, more of a 'no', what's the question? attitude, surprisingly.
I'm getting onto my proposed training outfit this morning armed with this information, as I recon it'll save me a pile of cash, time etc etc.
Next time I'm going up the M40, if you're on for it, it would be my pleasure to treat you to a pint or several.
20th Jul 2001, 10:50
Thanks for the offer, Polar_S, but my schedule is chaotic in the extreme these days!
If your MEP Rating is less than 5 years lapsed, all you should be required to do is to take a MEP Class Rating Proficiency Check (LPC SPA) which doesn't have to be conducted by a 'Staff FE' - in fact a suitably qualified UK/FE(PPL) could do it. The only training neded is whatever you and your FTO think that you need in order to pass the Proficiency Check and the Examiner can sign your licence then and there - a new form called FCL150CJAR 'Ratings - Certificate of Revalidation' goes in your licence and all Examiners have stocks of these.
It is only because you are also renewing your IR in section 3B (if you so choose) and the fact that it's between 5 and 10 years lapsed that you need a 'Staff FE' to conduct your single check flight. You can, if you wish, just do the MEP renewal with a non-Staff FE and then do the multi engine single pilot IR with the Staff FE on a second flight. I advise that you check the comparative costs though!
Don't let the Belgrano give you bad advice, to summarise, tell them:
1. Your MEP rating is less than 5 years lapsed, therefore you only need to renew it by completing a LPC SPA on a MEP aircraft.
2. Your IR is between 5 and not more than 10 years lapsed, therefore you will need to renew it with a Staff FE - you do NOT need to fly another initial IR.
3. Should you wish to renew your IR by doing it in Section 3B of your MEP renewal LPC SPA, what would the Authority's fee be for conducting the combined check.
Hope that this helps - do let us know whether they still don't agree as this is all in the CAA FE's handbook and they must know that!
20th Jul 2001, 11:09
I'm in debted to you for all this. Rest assured I'm on the case. Just think, I was all geared up for another initial IR skills test. Yuk yuk yuk.
This is wonderfull news, and the day before I go to the sun for two weeks.
I'll keep you posted for future reference.
Cheers again, and it's a shame I can't buy you that drink. One day.
20th Jul 2001, 13:46
To reply to your question, firstly AFAIK, you can transfer your ATPL credits over.
As of next June, the CAA will not issue anymore ATPL's, so I'd effectivly be under the 3 year limit to upgrade without an authority who'd issue the licence.
But the rub comes when you switch over. Under JAA, the ATPL comes with an additional requirement of 500 hours multi crew. They then give you seven years to get this, and it's a rolling seven years, so each time you renew the IR, you get another seven years.
Hope it helps